183 replies to this topic

[Mehlan]

Quote

Typically impacts above your center of gravity have a better chance of knocking you over.
Impacts below (ie. A Light running into the leg of an Assault) would just sort of slide you along the ground.

Your thinking a stationary/centered target... not a mobile one. In way of explanation I give you Judo & Aikido....
Or... build you a box, thigh high.. 60lbs weight... then run into it.

[Vodrin Thales]

I'm in favor of bringing in collision damage and having a collision set your throttle to zero, but I am against knockdowns. One of the real strengths of this game is that it is one of the few PvP games out there without any way an opponent can rob you of control of your mech(or character). The only way you lose control of your mech is by overheating, and that you can control yourself.

Change that and MWO becomes a weaker, less enjoyable game.

Edited by Vodrin Thales, 20 September 2013 - 07:36 AM.

[Antasius]

I see two distinct camps forming here, which is a microcosm of the whole MW game really.

The arcade-y FPS crowd that wants to play an ADD twitch-fest (cause ther' good at it).

And the TT purists that want things to slow down to old-school Battle-Tech physics... Like in the first promo video way back when others had the reins of this project.

This is a tough one... Everyone who remembers the glory days of Steel Battalion get in one line, and everyone that just logged out of Call of Duty get in the other.

Now make this a game that appeals to both crowds. That's no mean feat.

[DEMAX51]

Mehlan, on 20 September 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

Your thinking a stationary/centered target... not a mobile one. In way of explanation I give you Judo & Aikido....
Or... build you a box, thigh high.. 60lbs weight... then run into it.

Technically, I think the further you hit from their center of gravity the more likely they are to fall down, regardless of whether you go high or low - if you hit them high they're just more likely to fall backwards and if you hit them low they're more likely to fall forwards.

Antasius, on 20 September 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

I see two distinct camps forming here, which is a microcosm of the whole MW game really.

The arcade-y FPS crowd that wants to play an ADD twitch-fest (cause ther' good at it).

And the TT purists that want things to slow down to old-school Battle-Tech physics... Like in the first promo video way back when others had the reins of this project.

This is a tough one... Everyone who remembers the glory days of Steel Battalion get in one line, and everyone that just logged out of Call of Duty get in the other.

Now make this a game that appeals to both crowds. That's no mean feat.

I'm not looking for an arcadey-twitch fest, man. Having some 'Mechs move substantially faster than others does not promote that type of gameplay. Massive pinpoint alphas and one-hit kills are the essence of games like COD, not fast movement speed.

Edited by DEMAX51, 20 September 2013 - 07:49 AM.

[MadPanda]

This is the dumbest thread I've seen since returning to mwo. I enjoy assault and heavy mechs too and rarely play a light, but your suggestion is completely unrealistic and shows how disconnected you are from the game. Try a light mech yourself and see again if you think their speed should be nerfed, lol.

[Mehlan]

Quote

Look at football players making a tackle - do they leap for the guy's upper body, or dive at the legs?

Depends on what they're trying to accomplish, and what is easier to grab.... an aspect of football is trying to cause the ball carrier to LOSE ground nad/or control of the ball... merely causing them to fall over doesn't neccessarily result in that.

Edited by Mehlan, 20 September 2013 - 07:52 AM.

[Malsumis]

Whenever PGI gets around to adding some weight balancing to the matchmaking system the problem of having a bunch of lights on one team while the other team is slow and heavy should go away. A pack of lights can be very hard to deal with as they can swarm and disappear quickly. They can push on the base and force the enemy to change direction or separate. However, if the matchmaker had proper weight balancing this would not be so extreme.

The biggest issue with lights is the ECM spider. It has a weapon loadout that you can not ignore, is undetectable, really fast, and has very small hitboxes that cause some issues with hit detection. The raven 3L used to have some of the same issues and it can still do very well, but the 3L is nowhere near how it used to be.

Also, if knockdowns ever return, it will hinder a lot of light pilots as there are many that have jumped on the band wagon and are quite reckless in their piloting.

[Gaan Cathal]

Antasius, on 20 September 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

This is a tough one... Everyone who remembers the glory days of Steel Battalion get in one line, and everyone that just logged out of Call of Duty get in the other.

Because all things are binary! ALL THINGS! THEM VS US!

Don't be an *****. I came into MW with MW2 and the closest I've ever had to TT experience is a dabble with the MW:T beta. There are requirements for a good online game where you control one unit, one of those requirements is that it's as valid a decision to take a Light Mech as it is to take an Assault Mech, or we end up with Atlas Online. Now stop intimating that everyone that doesn't agree with you is a ritalin-addled tweenager and get back in your basement with your home-built HOTAS simulator where social skills and hygiene are no match for your near-autistic ability to memorise and find entrancing a fifteen-step time-sensitive process to turn on your 'unit' (see, I can do it too).

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 20 September 2013 - 07:56 AM.

[Kyone Akashi]

Mehlan, on 20 September 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

Give me a break.... sorry dude, all your flat out asking for is a penalty for lighter mechs... What's good for the goose should be good for the gander. A sizeable impact @ or below your center of gravity should have a solid chance of knocking you on your arse.... Heck, go ahead....give us TT collisions. I'd have no problem ramming the leg of your big arse mech with one or two 4xml alphas on top of it. A knockdown would just be icing on the cake.

See, I'd rather actually shoot stuff than fall into a trap where Lights stop being weapons platforms and turn the game into mecha-football. Personal preferences, I guess.



You may think that's fun. I think it's stupid and ridiculously far away from what Battletech is about.

[Mehlan]

Quote

Technically, I think the further you hit from their center of gravity the more likely they are to fall down, regardless of whether you go high or low - if you hit them high they're just more likely to fall backwards and if you hit them low they're more likely to fall forwards.[/quote[ You're right, I was focusing more of how it applies to mwo... Personaly I think the knockdown aspect is a function that is not needed... but if it's going to be put in, well it should be an option open to all based on the games origins and ruleset.





You may think that's fun. I think it's stupid and ridiculously far away from what Battletech is about.

I'm not the one asking/screaming for knockdowns... but if your going to ask for something ask for a fair version based around it's origin and not some one sided pile of steaming fecal matter.

[Kyone Akashi]

Mehlan, on 20 September 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

I'm not the one asking/screaming for knockdowns... but if your going to ask for something ask for a fair version based around it's origin and not some one sided pile of steaming fecal matter.

The problem is that the "fair" version will, and I am rather convinced of this due to prior experiences, make Light-piloting extremely frustrating because a number of players will just rush and immobilize you rather than committing to a fight.

With the "one-sided" version of only 'Mechs of heavier weight classes being able to do so, the pilot has at least a good chance of evading them - something that is not nearly as possible if your opponent pilots a Light too. Blind spots and turning speed will see you knocked down, shortly followed by the "Incoming Missiles" warning, shortly followed by destroyed components.

I'm not sure if you played when the knockdown feature was still in game, but it was getting really bad in the 1-2 weeks before it was taken out. It simply turned out to be the easiest way to destroy the other team's Lights - send your own Lights to topple them, commence missile barrage, "gg"

As I said, I'd rather have Light gameplay remain focused on actual fighting.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 20 September 2013 - 08:31 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

I call shenanigans. Just how exactly did you distribute your armor?

If you say so. But here are some numbers for you.

On their side torsos, Commandos have 24 armor and 12 internals for a total of 36 damage. On their side torsos, Jenners have 32 armor and 16 internals for a total of 48 damage. Even if you split the Commando's front/rear armor 50%, so it has 12 armor and 12 internals, it can still die in one hit to dual gauss (or any other combination of weapons that does 25+ damage). While the Jenner will survive it.

Same goes for legs. Commandos can lose legs in one hit. Jenners require two hits.

Because tiny mechs can be one hit killed, or one hit legged, they get far less benefit from double armor than any other mechs in the game, so they should definitely get a speed advantage to make up for that.


As for knockdowns, im all for them coming back, but I also think mechs with hand actuators like the Commando should have an easier time getting up from knockdown. Because it seems kindve silly the Commando loses two crit slots for hand actuators that serve no purpose, especially since the Commando already suffers an unfair crit slot penalty due to not being able to use a 255XL engine and cant fit all its heatsinks inside its engine like the Jenner.

Edited by Khobai, 20 September 2013 - 08:44 AM.

[Kunae]

Kyone Akashi, on 20 September 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

The problem is that the "fair" version will, and I am rather convinced of this due to prior experiences, make Light-piloting extremely frustrating because a number of players will just rush and immobilize you rather than committing to a fight.

With the "one-sided" version of only 'Mechs of heavier weight classes being able to do so, the pilot has at least a good chance of evading them - something that is not nearly as possible if your opponent pilots a Light too. Blind spots and turning speed will see you knocked down, shortly followed by the "Incoming Missiles" warning, shortly followed by destroyed components.

I'm not sure if you played when the knockdown feature was still in game, but it was getting really bad in the 1-2 weeks before it was taken out. It simply turned out to be the easiest way to destroy the other team's Lights - send your own Lights to topple them, commence missile barrage, "gg"

As I said, I'd rather have Light gameplay remain focused on actual fighting.

It was focused on actual fighting, before the removal. Just because you had some outliers exploiting the mechanic didn't mean that the concept and general execution were bad.

Piloting a light was a great deal more rewarding then, where ****** pilots got pwned, and skilled pilots were amazingly fun to watch.

[Mehlan]

Most likely because PGI did not follow the TT collision system.... and it needs to be the whole thing or nothing and leave it as it is...


Cog/Size offset could be an option, meaning an assault/light would be more likely to knock the other down than any two of the same class knocking each other down... but the chance of knockdown should be equal...ie: a lights speed will 'balance' against a assaualts mass. So your... 'jenner football' is not as likely, and you get a more equalised version of knockdown. :-)

[Kyone Akashi]

Khobai, on 20 September 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

Even if you split the Commando's front/rear armor 50%, so it has 12 armor and 12 internals, it can still die in one hit to dual gauss (or any other combination of weapons that does 25+ damage). While the Jenner will survive it.

It's not a "one-hit" if it comes from more than two weapons, is it? I could just as well claim a Jenner dies to "one-hits" as soon as somebody with a triple Gauss shows up.

So please...

Also, I think it is considered common to prioritize front over rear armor, in which cases both the Commando and the Jenner will be quite vulnerable to attacks to their backs, whilst both being able to take some punishment from the front. How much depends on the individual pilot's preferences.

Kunae, on 20 September 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

It was focused on actual fighting, before the removal. Just because you had some outliers exploiting the mechanic didn't mean that the concept and general execution were bad.

Let's just say that I've seen those outliers become more and more common with every day over the last 1-2 weeks and it turned into a regular thing to see.

Anything that can be exploited ends up being so, because this game is no different in having a large number of people who are in it just for the win, picking the easiest way to do so. Have you forgotten the popularity of Streakravens with bugged SSRMs and glitched hitboxes? Or the so-called poptarts with their maximum alpha damage philosophy that didn't care about overheating because it used to do no damage? All of this caused a huge amount of complaints on the forums, and required the developer to put a stop to it.

"Jenner football" was growing ever more popular back then because that was the easiest way to kill other Lights - disabling their primary protection (speed) and making them sitting ducks for your allies' weaponry. The pilot wouldn't even have to bother discharging their weapons. Just run into the target, the team will take care of the rest. To me, that's just not good gameplay, and it was extremely frustrating to get pulled out of an intense duel with an enemy 'Mech by such "tactics".

[Zyllos]

Having pin point accuracy destroys the balance of having a bit slower Light mech.

If every weapon doesn't always hit exactly where you point, then moving super fast isn't as important. Sure, if that Atlas can still land that AC/20 or Gauss Rifle against you, it's going to be extremely painful, doesn't matter if it hits your arm, torso, or leg.

What is forcing every Light *must* go fast is because when someone fires weapons, they all hit a single point. So either all the damage gets applied to a single location or it misses you completely. There isn't any middle ground where the 2 of the 3 lasers hit one spot, missiles hit all over, and the autocannon hits a different spot.

This is what's forcing so many players to play the way it does.

Edited by Zyllos, 20 September 2013 - 08:53 AM.

[PEEFsmash]

Fix your aim.

#MakeEloPublic

[Bors Mistral]

Orkhepaj, on 20 September 2013 - 02:18 AM, said:

Nerf speed on light mechs, or make them behave more realistically.

They accelerate way too quickly and due to their insane speed and if the terrain is not 100% flat then mech jumping around like randomly and pretty much impossible to aim them...

Please, just pour more practice into aiming.

I simply can't wait for MASC and speeds over 150. And I want collisions back in too! If someone is capable of piloting a small, lightly armored mech in a way that makes it hard for big, slow bristling with armament monsters to hit them, more power to them.

[Throe]

So, to decrease the top speed of a light 'Mech, without fundamentally changing the way they interact with everything else, you have to change the speeds on all the 'Mechs, turning speeds, arm swing speeds, torso twist speeds, perhaps even jump jet speeds.

You're talking about shaving ~33% off the speed of light 'Mechs, so let's explore the implications of that. Aside from slowing down the turning, torso, and arm speeds for every 'Mech, you've got to start with slowing down all the other 'Mechs.

Starting with the Atlas, with the best engine it can fit, which is a 360(XL or not, same top speed), with speed tweak, moves 64.2 kph. With the same 33% base reduction in speed, it's new top speed becomes 43 kph. If you are a person who prefers to load more weapons rather than topping out on speed, the slowest you could find yourself in an Atlas would now be 21.7 kph.

Without going any further, I can tell you they're also going to have to change cap speeds if they change 'Mech speeds, since now every 'Mech takes longer to respond to changing cap conditions. I'll stop here, since I think I've made the point. I don't think they're going to change the speed on the light 'Mechs just because they're difficult for people to attack. That's kind of part of the point of driving a light 'Mech.

[Clit Beastwood]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 September 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

Define Ultra fast? Cause Mechs with high speed rarely have lots of firepower. I'm an Atlas pilot mostly, so a fast Mech should be able to zip around me as though I were standing still making my life miserable. try swatting a fly bare handed, see how effective that is. (FYI... It gets much harder the older you get!)

Ha! So true. Used to be able to catch these little lizards in my backyard bare handed when I was, say, below 18... now that I'm 31... I tried to catch one and smooshed it all over the wall :| sorry lizard