84 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

The PPCs are finally where they should be.

It's a weapon that is small enough and light enough to be mounted on any mech, giving it versatility, while doing AC10 damage at farther ranges, with unlimited ammo. Its trade-off for this immense suite of advantages? Extreme heat: It cannot be cycle-fired without an intense amount of heatsinks.

Before the nerf, it was the go-to weapon, for every mech. (Which I called, way back in CBT when everyone was crying that it was too hot in the first place, was going to happen.)

And btw: I use two PPCs on my victor, and I use 2 ERPPCs on my Blackjack, and on my K2- they're fine.

[General Taskeen]

The heat levels wouldn't be an issue if heat sinks weren't designed how they are right now - that is the bottom line. The low dissipation/high threshold literally makes no sense when keeping the exact or close heat values, especially when only a weapon like ER PPC can function best only with DHS.

For instance the ER PPC produces 15 heat per shot in MW3 - MW3 was one of the Mech games to stick closer to "TT" heat per shot than even MWO, but the heatsinks were the same as every Mech game, but MWO - they dissipated heat very fast, so you could stagger your ER PPC's. If you had 4 of them, like on a Masakari, you had to stagger fire, there was no way around it - firing 4 of them, at the same time, would blow your Mech up, since no heatsinks raised the threshold, it was a 'fixed' value.



This for example is a stock Prime Config Puma with 2 ER PPC's, 1 Flamer - with 11 Clan DHS. Even with a stock config in that game, it could still do well enough as shown in the video with the guy sniping the AI. Firing 2 ER PPC"s raises their heat almost to the max heat level, but they are able too cool down very quickly. If that player were playing a game against players, he would probably be flanked by Mechs using Passive radar and they would die rather quickly, since that build is best for sniping, not sustained close range combat.

All that would be needed is heatsinks to be redeveloped and add in some heat penalties as LL did, when going over critical heat boundary, the armor itself would 'melt' and once that was gone, the internals would take damage, etc. They could even add in some of the heat penalties from TT, such as slowing your Mech down at high heat - more sluggish, or ammo explosions, etc.

Edited by General Taskeen, 21 September 2013 - 08:06 AM.

[Core2029]

Mechsniper, on 21 September 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

disingenuous

Please stop using that word. At the very least Google what it means.

[scJazz]

Lupus Aurelius, on 20 September 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

Some might argue that alpha matters solely

This right here is where your arguement falls apart.

If front loaded, pinpoint alpha didn't matter we would never have gotten to the Gauss+PPC meta that was so totally dominate.

AC5s have not been changed in ages yet only once (ER)PPCs were finally no longer the dominate weapon did their use become common. You can not recover from this by saying well AC5s have a higher DPS and can recover from missed shots. They have had a higher DPS during the entire (ER)PPC Meta. DPS is meaningless in MWO. You either Core the target before he Cores you or you lose.

This Dominance did not stop at 12 or 13 heat either. It was tried... PPCOnline continued.

[TheBossHammer]

Lupus Aurelius, on 20 September 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

Firebrand Jagermech, both set up with the following:
· Armor 384 max 422
· Engine (130-340) STD ENGINE 260
· Speed 64.8 kph 71.3 kph
· Upgrades: Armor Standard ; Structure Endo-Steel ; Heatsinks Double ; Guidance Standard

Firebrand Jagermech - Armaments: MEDIUM LASER 4 ; ANTI-MISSILE SYSTEM 1 ; AC/5 2
· Tonnage 65.0 max 65
· Firepower 30.00 max 175
· Max sustained DPS 4.90 max 11.67
· Cooling Efficiency 42% max 100%
· Stats
· Free slots 10
· Heatsinks 12
· Ammunition: AMS AMMO 1000 AC/5 AMMO 180
· Equipment and Modules: C.A.S.E. 1

Firebrand Jagermech - Armaments: MEDIUM LASER 4 ; ER PPC 2 ; ANTI-MISSILE SYSTEM 1
· Tonnage 62.5 (2.50 free) max 65
· Firepower 40.00 max 175
· Max sustained DPS 2.70 max 10.00
· Cooling Efficiency 27% max 100%
· Stats
· Free slots 1
· Heatsinks 18
· Ammunition: AMS AMMO 1000
(2.5 tons free, no additional heatsinks can fit due to crit space. In theory, you could go with a larger engine, but maintaining the same armor levels, it would be a standard 270. With neither room nor weight to allow for another DHS)

From the point of view of performance, no one can argue against the dual AC5 build being completely superior.

You have the problem backwards. The paired ERPPC's doing 2.67 sustained isn't the issue, the paired AC/5's doing 4.9 is. The AC/5 and AC/2 had their fire rates increased during the PPC meta to combat the absurd firepower of the PPC. Now that PPC's are weaker, the AC/2 and AC/5 (and as such, the UAC5) need their cooldowns adjusted back. As it stands right now, no amount of PPC's will core an Atlas before the first overheat, which is EXACTLY as it should be. The basic problem is that 2 AC/5's can, and will do it FAST. More importantly, the quad AC/5 Cataphract, which was good during the PPC meta, is now nothing short of absurd. IT is the problem, because an AC/20 shot every 1.5 seconds is a cored atlas in 10 seconds or less. That is the real problem.

Edited by TheBossHammer, 21 September 2013 - 09:57 AM.

[Lupus Aurelius]

TheBossHammer, on 21 September 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

You have the problem backwards. The paired ERPPC's doing 2.67 sustained isn't the issue, the paired AC/5's doing 4.9 is. The AC/5 and AC/2 had their fire rates increased during the PPC meta to combat the absurd firepower of the PPC. Now that PPC's are weaker, the AC/2 and AC/5 (and as such, the UAC5) need their cooldowns adjusted back. As it stands right now, no amount of PPC's will core an Atlas before the first overheat, which is EXACTLY as it should be. The basic problem is that 2 AC/5's can, and will do it FAST. More importantly, the quad AC/5 Cataphract, which was good during the PPC meta, is now nothing short of absurd. IT is the problem, because an AC/20 shot every 1.5 seconds is a cored atlas in 10 seconds or less. That is the real problem.

Perhaps. Either way, it is unbalanced. However, having ghost heat with the current mechanics, and the ERPPC the one most effected by it, either indicates that the ERPPC needs it's heat dropped from 15, probably down to 13, or that heat needs to be increased on AC5, UAC5, Gauss, and possibly the LB10x and AC10, with ghost heat penalties that effect using 2 or more at a time.

[Amsro]

TheBossHammer, on 21 September 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

You have the problem backwards. The paired ERPPC's doing 2.67 sustained isn't the issue, the paired AC/5's doing 4.9 is. The AC/5 and AC/2 had their fire rates increased during the PPC meta to combat the absurd firepower of the PPC. Now that PPC's are weaker, the AC/2 and AC/5 (and as such, the UAC5) need their cooldowns adjusted back. As it stands right now, no amount of PPC's will core an Atlas before the first overheat, which is EXACTLY as it should be. The basic problem is that 2 AC/5's can, and will do it FAST. More importantly, the quad AC/5 Cataphract, which was good during the PPC meta, is now nothing short of absurd. IT is the problem, because an AC/20 shot every 1.5 seconds is a cored atlas in 10 seconds or less. That is the real problem.

Wait what? My 3 PPC treb counters your claim with consistent results.

If you make your build heat efficient ER/PPC's can still be deadly.

Edit; while I have seen the quad AC5 mech I've never thought of it as OP. Shrugs, nice QQ tho.

Once AC5 and AC2 are nerfed you can move on to the medium and small lasers, they are also OP.

Edited by Amsro, 22 September 2013 - 05:58 AM.

[General Taskeen]

The Puma in MWO is going to be laughably useless in stock compared to the Mech Warrior 3 video above.

Sigh PGI, what are you doing?

[Amsro]

Lupus Aurelius, on 22 September 2013 - 03:01 AM, said:

Perhaps. Either way, it is unbalanced. However, having ghost heat with the current mechanics, and the ERPPC the one most effected by it, either indicates that the ERPPC needs it's heat dropped from 15, probably down to 13, or that heat needs to be increased on AC5, UAC5, Gauss, and possibly the LB10x and AC10, with ghost heat penalties that effect using 2 or more at a time.

Ghost heat just needs to be uninstalled all together, it no longer serves any other purpose then to confuse players. I've run into herds of people that havn't even heard of Ghost Heat..... REMOVE IT!!

[Dalinor Frostreaver]

PPC "nerf" was fine. It puts them back to where they were always supposed to be. Pgi would do well to stop second guessing years of BT numbers. I realize that table top and videogames have different needs, but anytime you drop ppc heat, you make them more and more overpowered. I still use ppcs, and they work fine. I still think the best solution to boating would be setting hardpoint limits/types, (light, medium, and heavy Hardpoints with matching types for weapons) instead of ghost heat, or constant fiddling with heat values.

[Satan n stuff]

PPCs are still great weapons, but like many other weapons bad players will blame them for their failures. "OMG I'm shutdown and that mech is still alive and shooting at me and now I'm dead, PPCs suck!" If this happens to you try to actually hit what you're shooting at.

[FupDup]

General Taskeen, on 22 September 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

The Puma in MWO is going to be laughably useless in stock compared to the Mech Warrior 3 video above.

Sigh PGI, what are you doing?

To be fair, the vast majority of stock builds are utterly terrible in MWO as well and virtually all of them are sub-optimal even in TT's environment (excluding rare cases like the Hellstar).

They tend to carry too little armor (i.e. Quickdraw, Hellbringer), too much MG ammo for only 2 MGs (Mad Cat I'm looking at you!), too few heatsinks (Warhawk...), too little speed (i.e. Urbie), usage of sub-optimal weapons (the Puma using a Flamer instead of ER Small Laser, etc.), not using all possible tech upgrades (i.e. Warhawk using FF instead of Endo), storing ammo in the upper body (every stock mech ever), using CASE with XL engines, and/or using 6+ different weapon groups that have no synergy whatsoever. Stock mechs are deliberately designed to be inefficient and vulnerable.

Edited by FupDup, 22 September 2013 - 09:16 AM.

[Sable]

I wouldn't mind them bringing the heat back down a little if they also bring the projectile speed from 1500mps to 1100mps

[Corvus Antaka]

more reasonable to compare an AC/10 to an AC/5 to the PPC.

Also, there is a significant tonnage commit difference between the 2 types of weapons.

Ballistics could however perhaps use a touch more heat to balance them in line.

[Hexenhammer]

I'll be taking the heart out of my BattleMaster and replacing the PPC with either a LL or ELL and double heat sinks and Endo steel.

I wish I could have the PPC on it but the damage/range/heat ratio isn't worth it.

[Viral Matrix]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 22 September 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

more reasonable to compare an AC/10 to an AC/5 to the PPC.

Also, there is a significant tonnage commit difference between the 2 types of weapons.

Ballistics could however perhaps use a touch more heat to balance them in line.

It would seem to be a more appropriate comparison. Generally, it seems obvious to me that the curent meta favors Ballistics heavy mechs.

im personally leaning to PGI bringing in low cap, high dissipation more like TT. Ghost heat is ridiculous and arbitrary. Why is the AC/2 affected depending on rhythm of 2 being fired? Why are Medium Lasers allowed to do 30 point alphas, but not PPCs or Large Lasers? The heat generated by energy weapons is so much higher than on ballistics, and yet 10 points of damage is still 10 points, that the arguement that about weighing less is moot when DHS use is factored in. Ballistics can output much more damage without heat issues, with much lower reload times. About the only real limiting factor for ballistics is the limited number of slots generally on mechs. I find ammo is only a problem on the extreme configs eg. 4xAC. But 3xAC configs? everything is dead by the time u run out of shells. They can do this while not overheating.

I thought heat neutrality was the devil, and yet ballistics mechs are kings of this.

[Wolfways]

Lord Ikka, on 20 September 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

Really? Cause last time I checked every ballistic has ammo as a limiting factor.

If you carry enough ammo to last an entire match where is the limiting factor?

[Joseph Mallan]

Lupus Aurelius, on 20 September 2013 - 08:51 PM, said:

No where, in this game nor in Battletech, is that statement ever made. Please quote the source for that criteria. Otherwise, it is just your opinion on what it should be, unsubstantiated by any data. Please restrict yourself to the data as published by MWO and the BattleTech franchise.

BattleTech Wiki/Auto Cannons

Quote

autocannons produce far less heat than energy weapons, but are considerably bulkier and are dependent upon limited stores of ammunition.[/color]

Which is referenced to Tech Manual Pg 207.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 23 September 2013 - 05:57 AM.

[DeathlyEyes]

My two issues with the PPC nerfs are as follows:
1. The PPC now has a lower muzzle velocity than a gauss rifle. The PPC is suppose to do kinetic damage. That damage comes off the speed at which the particles are traveling since the particle mass is near negligible. The muzzle velocity makes no sense.
2. Standard PPCs should still be able to do damage within minimum range since within minimum range the inhibitor just increases the chances of the PPC not properly discharging. Either make the weapon randomly not do damage or set it back to a degrading damage scale.

[General Taskeen]

FupDup, on 22 September 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

To be fair, the vast majority of stock builds are utterly terrible in MWO as well and virtually all of them are sub-optimal even in TT's environment (excluding rare cases like the Hellstar).

They tend to carry too little armor (i.e. Quickdraw, Hellbringer), too much MG ammo for only 2 MGs (Mad Cat I'm looking at you!), too few heatsinks (Warhawk...), too little speed (i.e. Urbie), usage of sub-optimal weapons (the Puma using a Flamer instead of ER Small Laser, etc.), not using all possible tech upgrades (i.e. Warhawk using FF instead of Endo), storing ammo in the upper body (every stock mech ever), using CASE with XL engines, and/or using 6+ different weapon groups that have no synergy whatsoever. Stock mechs are deliberately designed to be inefficient and vulnerable.

Mmm, I think you know better than that FupDup. You are thinking in MWO PGI terms™. The only reason stock mechs are terrible in this game is literally due to design decisions - and bad ones at that, from heat design, trickling all the way down to weapon design and equipment design.

The video above is an exact stock Mech of a Prime Puma Variant in MW3 (with only 11 DHS, i might add) - which is why I posted in conjunction with stating that the Heat System in MWO is terrible in comparison. And as seen in the video, it can do fine with 2 ER PPC's and 11 DHS, being able to snipe (as it is meant to do) with impunity. By comparison a Mech in MWO with 11 DHS must take 30 seconds just to cool down. And Mechs with SHS, in MW3/4, can disappate heat much quicker than MWO - making stock Mechs completely viable. Even MW:LL has SHS Stock Mechs that work absolutely fine - again because design decisions in a real-time game. These are things I have tested consistently by going back to those games and comparing the heat system and stock designs and comparing them to MWO's.

Some of your examples:

Stock Prime Madcat (MW3) - Stock Prime only caries 1 ton for 2 MG's, per Record Sheet, this is the same practically for any TT Mech with 2 MG's. This Mech in Stock format is a beast in MW3, and the MG's can actually destroy the armor.

Urban Mech (MW4) - Easily defeated on open maps in MW4. In solaris and city maps, its a totally different ball game. For being so slow on those types of maps, it is actually quite powerful - which also has to do with better jumpjets.

Puma (Flamer Example) (MW3) - 1 or 2 Flamers are very good in that game. They heat up Mechs instantly and do straight up damage.


Warhawk (design, too few heatsinks) (MW3) - Warhawk stock in that game does absolutely fine and acts just as it states in canon. You can stagger fire the ER PPC's, however using 4 ER PPC's at once will blow up your Mech. The amount of DHS stock in MW3 on that Mech quickly disappates the heat efficiently. This is due to the lower heat cap in that game, which is canon - and how it has been developed in every Mech Warrior game except MWO.

Using Case with XL Engine examples - The design in MWO is terrible, and that's just a fact. CASE should have been programmed, for a real time game, to prevent an XL engine from taking damage as well. In MW3, you can use an XL with CASE stock, and the case will prevent the ammo from doing damage to the engine.

Poor Design Decisions (I call it how I see it), thus far, have consistently made "stock" Mechs terrible in MWO compared to any other Mech Warrior game.

Edited by General Taskeen, 23 September 2013 - 07:10 AM.