345 replies to this topic

[-Muta-]

FenixofBria, on 21 September 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

Not Jenners.
Not Commandos.
Spiders.

They pretty much have Atlas armor and the protection of lag speed.

Even when stationary, or at least to the point you can hit them with lasers, it takes too much effort to kill them. With Streaks and LB-X, while they hit more conistently, the armor just absorbs the brunt of the damage.

I have seen Spiders go down to 14% before dying, multiple times, and they also had multiple mechs atacking them. One was even legged and it took taking it down to 12% to kill it. Three mechs were converged on it and attacking it. It's gotten ridiculous. Concentrating fire doesn't work the same on a Spider as on other mechs. The hitbox just rolls the damage throughout the mech instead of one location like it should.

Jenners and commandos don't have this problem. They have acceptable hitboxes and speed, and while they can be destroyed easier, they can still tear you a new ******** and especially if you don't pay them attention.

Either Spiders need to have a better hitbox and/or the netcode needs to be brought up to speed. Their power on the battlefield is too much for their size, and I'm not even talking about swarms. A single Spider can murder a Catapult, even if the Cat has Streaks and Medium Lasers.

Disregard the other obvious thread because the only issue here is the Spider mech, not lights in general.

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Seems like some one is getting crushed by spider lately xD

[Mehlan]

Quote

A single Spider can murder a Catapult, even if the Cat has Streaks and Medium Lasers.

big slow mech vs small agile mech... duh. Find a better pilot for the catapult. They all 'work' the same... I'll do the same thing in a spider as Ill do in a jenner or commando, with the exception of hop on small buildings.

Quote

A commando is like a spider, just much easier to kill - and a bit bigger - and this is where the spider needs to be.

Spider is taller than the commando, and jsut as wide up top. It however has a sleeker profile, the commando has a stockier build is all.

[Corwin Vickers]

When your cursor turns red that does not mean you hit. It means your client thought you hit. Fortunately PGI doesn't allow clients to tell the server whether you hit. If they allowed that you'd have a million people hacking their clients to tell the server they always hit.

STOP THINKING THAT THE RED FLASHY CURSOR MEANS YOU HIT. THAT IS WRONG

So the problem is how do you know where to aim? Well with HSR for projectiles and HSR for SRMs, and whatever it's called for lasers it's going to be different for each weapon system.

The better your ping and having a decent computer help the most and most of us have some control over that. The other guys ping you can't control at all so you just have to L2P.

This is a L2P issue. You need to learn to lead your target based on your computer, your ping, and their ping. It's not rocket surgery. When their paper doll register a good full damage hit then you now know where the server wants you to aim in order to hit.


All you people calling for the spiders hit boxes to be "fixed" when what you really mean is make them bigger are just compounding the problem instead of learning to play.

As people have explained many times, this problem affects all mechs equally. It's just that you don't notice when you are shooting at a laggy atlas because even though your aim was far from where it should be the atlas is gigantic and moving very slow so chances are you're going to get a piece of him. With a spider your aim must be much better but since you refuse to learn to play the game you never learn from your mistakes.

So let's say you "fix" the spiders hit boxes. Not all spiders are fast. So now you have penalized slow moving spiders because of your inability to learn.


Another thing I see with people who can't aim is they close so close with their target they are running into them. This is the worst thing you could possibly do, especially against a laggy opponent. As we all know the collision code does not work at the moment and even when it did it did not work very well. When you run into someone where you think you are is NOT where you are. It usually takes a second or two for your client to get back in sync with the server. This could be the cause of a lot of "I CANT HIT THE GUY POINT BLANK WTF?!!>!@#>!@#>!@#!>"

[Clit Beastwood]

Corwin Vickers, on 29 September 2013 - 11:53 PM, said:

When your cursor turns red that does not mean you hit. It means your client thought you hit. Fortunately PGI doesn't allow clients to tell the server whether you hit. If they allowed that you'd have a million people hacking their clients to tell the server they always hit.

STOP THINKING THAT THE RED FLASHY CURSOR MEANS YOU HIT. THAT IS WRONG

So the problem is how do you know where to aim? Well with HSR for projectiles and HSR for SRMs, and whatever it's called for lasers it's going to be different for each weapon system.

The better your ping and having a decent computer help the most and most of us have some control over that. The other guys ping you can't control at all so you just have to L2P.

This is a L2P issue. You need to learn to lead your target based on your computer, your ping, and their ping. It's not rocket surgery. When their paper doll register a good full damage hit then you now know where the server wants you to aim in order to hit.


All you people calling for the spiders hit boxes to be "fixed" when what you really mean is make them bigger are just compounding the problem instead of learning to play.

As people have explained many times, this problem affects all mechs equally. It's just that you don't notice when you are shooting at a laggy atlas because even though your aim was far from where it should be the atlas is gigantic and moving very slow so chances are you're going to get a piece of him. With a spider your aim must be much better but since you refuse to learn to play the game you never learn from your mistakes.

So let's say you "fix" the spiders hit boxes. Not all spiders are fast. So now you have penalized slow moving spiders because of your inability to learn.


Another thing I see with people who can't aim is they close so close with their target they are running into them. This is the worst thing you could possibly do, especially against a laggy opponent. As we all know the collision code does not work at the moment and even when it did it did not work very well. When you run into someone where you think you are is NOT where you are. It usually takes a second or two for your client to get back in sync with the server. This could be the cause of a lot of "I CANT HIT THE GUY POINT BLANK WTF?!!>!@#>!@#>!@#!>"

caffeinated rant followed by the cliffs notes at the bottom.

I run spiders often, though recently I've taken to the cataphract 3d like a fish to water. Generally my 3d has 4ll onboard, but I started running a combo of LPL and LBX's with ml's to fill in the gaps. The role I've adopted is following along behind an atlas other rambo assault pilot... my job? Keep them alive. I generally tell them in text chat, "I'm going to use you as a meat shield. In exchange, I'll keep your back clean - sound ok?" - it's worked well so far. A pair of LPL does a pretty good job of opening up various lights, even spiders... then you can shotgun bits off their mechs. It's really not that bad. I play with a bunch of people that prefer lights, we all run primarily commandos, jenners, or spiders. When we're playing together using comms, we are vocally anticipating the actions of enemy lights and we play accordingly. I think getting some seat time in something like a Spider goes a *long* way towards understanding how to kill them, but also getting into the heads of the pilots. If you don't want your atlas to be killed by a spider, don't go rambo. Maybe get a buddy and forge a deal like the above. I've played every weight class, I prefer lights by a VAST margin, though for some reason I sometimes like to blimp around in a stalker. Sometimes I die to lights, usually when I'm last man standing, or I get bloodlusty and run ahead or away from my team. If what you are doing is not working try something else. Persistently trying the same ineffective strategy and then getting upset about it is not a recipe for success. Dying because your team abandons you? Maybe don't be in front. Dying because you didn't put on enough rear armor or your engine is too small? Stop focusing on your alphastrike capability and aim for a better blend of speed and firepower. Just because a build someone shared with you on smurfy is employed by them to great success doesn't mean you're going to hop in and instantly succeed. I've handed out builds to other people that are great for me and just get them slaughtered. Guess what - that's because *I* built the mech. *I* went through all the trials and tribulations to figure out how it works and tune it to my playstyle. Maybe your build sucks. Maybe it's great, but not for you. The only way to know is to try. I know people love PPC's, but I can tell you, when I'm in my Spider I do not often die to ppc's. I die to pulse lasers and LBX fire taking off a leg. Occasionally if I'm an ***** and I wind up in front of someone with an AC20. The current mech that I avoid on the battlefield is a YLW, because they've got the AC20, and the speed (foot speed and torso twist) to hit me. So I don't go near them until I can angle in for a driveby. Everyone should just stop complaining. If the spiders get nerfed, you'll just start getting killed by something else. PGI doesn't need to keep nerfing everything that kills you, they need to *force* people to qualify for mechs before they're allowed to buy them to make sure you'll actually know how to drive it and use it before you can run it. I'm rambling, too much caffeine, but to sum it up:

1. Drive a spider for a while. Get good at it. You'll learn how to fight them better by doing so. Train in their tactics to learn how to defeat them. It's what counterinsurgency specialists do.

2. Don't expect a build someone posted online to work for you. If you can't kill spiders, the spider pilot is either better than you, your build is not good (for you), or you failed to properly position yourself or adapt to changing conditions.

3. A light pilot, specifically the lightly armed spider, relies on other pilots making mistakes to kill and survive. Don't make mistakes, and you'll make their jobs much harder. When I come in for a strafing run and see a double/triple LBX ilya hiding in it's shadow ready to smack me as I exit my run, I break off because that thing will JACK ME UP and take my legs.

[Gaan Cathal]

Triordinant, on 29 September 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

http://youtu.be/xWIjVKLnZDc

Thought I'd just leave this here in case it wasn't already somewhere in the 10 pages of posts. Remember that this video shows a FACT and it will remain a fact until someone posts a video proving that it's been fixed.

You do realise that hitbox hole is present on every mech in the game, yes?

[CrashieJ]

mekabuser, on 21 September 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:

As an original spider pilot, it kinda peeves me off seeing all the d bags that flocked to it when HD became a problem. THen again, theres always quite a bit of D bags playing as they seem to just like the flavor of the month..
That being said, I have to deal with spiders also..
WHile they can be a damage sink, its not end of the world tho, I hunt them in my ... spider with an erppc.. no easy feat, but do able.
In any other light or med its easy..
Also, tho I play to NEVER take damage in one, its not like they are always a damage sink. Last night I was taken out with one shot when I got a little stupid.

MAYBE IN SOme elo brackets its bad, but the spider//// well its about the weakest of the flavors of the month...
ITs about item 100 on my list of things to do.

I remember the time where I had to sink all 4 tons of MG ammo and tape down my Small laser button just to drop an Atlas's engine...

yeah, the times when piloting 4 Machineguns on a Spider meant you HAD BALLZ

[Alois Hammer]

FenixofBria, on 21 September 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

I don't record any of my battles. I don't care to. I'm not going to seek out evidence of this and post it.

Then you admit to having no evidence of, or even basis for, your complaint beyond the internet standard "Waaaaah, i dnt liek teh spyder, nurf pls!!!!!!!1!!!!!!"

Got it.

[Clit Beastwood]

gavilatius, on 30 September 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

I remember the time where I had to sink all 4 tons of MG ammo and tape down my Small laser button just to drop an Atlas's engine...

yeah, the times when piloting 4 Machineguns on a Spider meant you HAD BALLZ

ouch - mg's and a *small* laser? Toss an LPL in that bad boy and you have an entire percussion section!
wub wub dakka dakka wub dakka wub wub (beeping sounds?)

[Elwood Blues]

So, I went back to running Jenners a bunch for the past few weeks and it has made me even more convinced that the spider is broken. I've chased some spiders that were just horrible at dodging. I mean just running away with some mild direction changes. They were running away and I was dumping 4 MLs reliably in their back. 3 alpha shots and the back armor of the spider was orange. Not even red. It was ridiculous. I might understand if they were juking all over the place but they weren't. I was burying those lasers in their back. A jenner, raven, or commando in the same situation would have been dead about 2 times over. I was very irritated. Lasers seem to just be pointless to fire at a spider.

[Koniving]

RandomLurker, on 21 September 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

Spider is fine. The mech's size is not. It's half the size of a Cicada, which is only 10 tons heavier. It's smaller then a Commando, which is 5 tons lighter.
http://imageshack.us/f/7/a9s6.jpg/

According to the image you used, the spider is bigger than the Commando, but skinnier. What that doesn't show is that from the side, the commando is a lot thinner than the spider.

From a side perspective, the spider is fatter. From a front perspective, the commando is stockier. Ultimately though spiders are taller. Also, side by side the Trebuchet is a lot taller than the Cataphract, the cata's been raised up, and the Awesome's been hunched down. The person who did the image has modified their stances to exaggerate the differences.

Yes, there are some scales wrong, but you can't go by one biased player's image.

Standing straight, the spider is taller than the Raven. I should also note the Raven and Blackjacks don't stand that high up, both hunch their legs up more. Same with the quickdraw, who is standing up straight in that image. Side by side barely the helmet on the quickdraw is taller than the Dragon.

Edit: One more thing, the stalker's shorter than an awesome when standing side by side. Hunch stands higher than a BJ, but the BJ's legs are long enough to be taller than the Hunch. Catapult is shorter than shown in normal stance.

Aside from the leg hunch-up adjustments, the Centurion, Dragon, and Quickdraw use the same animations. This is why the Centurion's body is so wide, so that the bones will be in the right place.

------
That said if anyone is having trouble hitting spiders try using one of the following weapons: MGs, lasers, streaks.

By far, pulse lasers work the best.

You can never fail to hit them with these. Occasionally AC/20s will fail to hit. Most other ACs tend to be an issue where you see one thing and they see another and neither of what the two of you see is correct and the server has opted for option 3; you're both wrong and you miss despite seeing your shot hit, and he isn't shown as far ahead as he thought he was.

Edited by Koniving, 01 October 2013 - 04:09 PM.

[TexAce]

This just in



Spider don't need to be balanced, they need to be FIXED

[Wispsy]

TexAss, on 01 October 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

This just in



Spider don't need to be balanced, they need to be FIXED

What about your other weapons?

[TexAce]

Wispsy, on 01 October 2013 - 06:09 PM, said:

What about your other weapons?

The MLs worked. I tried it again with an SRM6 and while most of them registered, 2 volleys did not register at all. I even went VERY close to make sure at least 4 of the 6 hit, but the damage percentage was very different on every shot. Sometimes 1% although 5 of 6 hit, sometimes 4%, sometimes 7%. Very inconsistent.


See how the mech doesn't move sometimes when hit? I shot the raven a few 100 meters away next and it rocked everytime it got hit.
But on the spider...no red cross, no flash on paperdoll and no percentage change. its like the spider turned on a power shield for some volleys and for some not.

Edited by TexAss, 01 October 2013 - 06:15 PM.

[WarZ]

TexAss, on 01 October 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

This just in



Spider don't need to be balanced, they need to be FIXED

Anyone who tries to counter that bit of evidence with more blind "spiders are fine" BS, is obviously an exploiter.

You have that kind of hit detection / hit boxing issue, then you add in lag shield on top.

Anyone not seeing issues with the spiders is honestly full of ****.

[Wispsy]

TexAss, on 01 October 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

The MLs worked. I tried it again with an SRM6 and while most of them registered, 2 volleys did not register at all. I even went VERY close to make sure at least 4 of the 6 hit, but the damage percentage was very different on every shot. Sometimes 1% although 5 of 6 hit, sometimes 4%, sometimes 7%. Very inconsistent.


See how the mech doesn't move sometimes when hit? I shot the raven a few 100 meters away next and it rocked everytime it got hit.
But on the spider...no red cross, no flash on paperdoll and no percentage change. its like the spider turned on a power shield for some volleys and for some not.

Sounds like it is mostly an srm problem then, shame you did not get the chance to try acs too.

[Devilsfury]

WarZ, on 01 October 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

Anyone who tries to counter that bit of evidence with more blind "spiders are fine" BS, is obviously an exploiter.

You have that kind of hit detection / hit boxing issue, then you add in lag shield on top.

Anyone not seeing issues with the spiders is honestly full of ****.

Game, Set, Match.... anyone disputing that Spiders are not very bugged, needs to have your account deleted. Enough said

[akpavker]

Devilsfury, on 01 October 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

Game, Set, Match.... anyone disputing that Spiders are not very bugged, needs to have your account deleted. Enough said

mehlan and PEEFsmash will find some flaw or just straight up abuse the f**k out of TexAss for posting that video im sure.....just give it time. or at least that's what happened to me when i posted a video showing that they are broken!

[ShinVector]

Are they rotating the mechs in Training Ground now ? Nice..
They should have done that a long time ago...
Secondly they should have add compartment hit point information....

I have seen many instances of paper doll now updating bug recently and people mistaken it for no damage done.
You can tell there is damage because the armour % goes down but the paper doll doesn't update properly, until it is hit again.

PGI... I know we are no longer BETA TESTERS and just simply paying customers.
Get this done so, we can continue to test stuff and your real BETA TESTERS missed.

[akpavker]

ShinVector, on 01 October 2013 - 08:22 PM, said:

Are they rotating the mechs in Training Ground now ? Nice..
They should have done that a long time ago...
Secondly they should have add compartment hit point information....

I have seen many instances of paper doll now updating bug recently and people mistaken it for no damage done.
You can tell there is damage because the armour % goes down but the paper doll doesn't update properly, until it is hit again.

PGI... I know we are no longer BETA TESTERS and just simply paying customers.
Get this done so, we can continue to test stuff and your real BETA TESTERS missed.

lol this was a well known problem before the game was released

[Nryrony]

Hmm, I have to say, I'm hitting spiders very well - with ballistics at range.

I'm not sure about the cause - do lasers lack precise at hit registration? Is the Spider "shield" only working at closer ranges?