92 replies to this topic

[Serpentbane]

Wolfways, on 24 September 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

You didn't. There are no "through armour crits" in MWO. That feature from the TT was removed as was ammo exploding from the mech getting too hot.
The only way to get an ammo explosion is if the ammo is crit after the armour on that section is gone, or damage from another section that is blown off is transferred to the section with ammo in it (I'm not sure if the transferred damage can cause crits though).
Basically, with the speed internals take damage, you can get an ammo explosion on a section you were about to lose anyway.

Edit: I think you can also get an ammo explosion from damage when you shutdown from overheating, but i'm not sure.

I'm pretty sure I've seen mechs go down with armor remaining on all main body sections. Acording to my sensors that is. Why they went down I'm not sure of.

[Serpentbane]

I finally found a AWS 8Q build that do not overheat imideately. 7x SPL. Well, in my test I actually managed 2 kills and 378 damage with this setup, but I would not go as far as calling it a successfull build. Being an Assault energy based mech, this chunck of steel Depends on sustaind fire to survive. As of now we are better off with mediums energybuilds like the hunch as they pretty much can do the same With more speed and movement.

　
Head on With a dakka dakka build energy builds today are useless. A 4x AC5 build with 240 punch right trough from a distance with no heat issues, and ammo to spare. Running the AWS 8Q and some LL's or PPC's I have to manage heat carefully while trying to aim in this screen shaking hawok. Pinpointing a laser hit is impossible, so if I'm lucky I'm able keep most of the beem on the mech.
　

This nerfing of energy weapons might be great on mechs with a combination of weaponery. But the AWS 8Q sports energy only. Think about it. Why were the 8Q ever built? Why do it come with 3PPC standard if it do not work. And no, the AWS is not a sniper or long range support mech that shoots 2 or 3 rounds and hide.
　
　

Edited by Serpentbane, 07 October 2013 - 11:26 PM.

[Sir Ratburger]

I try not to use only energy weapons on most of my mechs and put some balistics or rockets to balance out the heat... but with this new ghost heat bullcrap that even effects 2 AC2's on your mech its getting harder and harder to find a nice build that works well and just becoming more and more frustrating.

I have stopped playing the game a lot more than I used to, I really hope I can come back in a month or so and enjoy a smooth, well put together game - Its not looking that way from what I have seen lately.

PGI, I reccomend you actually read and use some of the very good ideas the community has put forth. Some of your recent additions like 'Ghost heat' and a 'Ready' button are really unnecisary and the sad fact is that you have forums brimming with frustrated people all saying the same thing but you completely turn a blind eye.

[King Picollo]

Probably pants but i'd love to try this build.

Loving the LPL's right now.

[Barantor]

My 8Q has 2 ppcs (distance shots) and 2 large lasers (mid range) and 3 medium lasers (for lights). I don't use all at once because that is pants on head ******** and I will overheat all the time. If you want to fire tons of lasers at once then you are just going to overheat.

I personally feel this has made for more balanced loadouts and for as much as you don't like taking LRMs on a stalker, they keep peoples heads down and even sometimes get kills. I love folks saying LRMs are useless......

[Almond Brown]

FupDup, on 22 September 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

Personally I think it would be a little bit more intuitive for DHS to be the fast-cooling-low-capacity and SHS to be the slow-cooling-high-capacity.

Perhaps just allow players to use BOTH types when building. Most Energy builds have at a min., 4 open crit slots in the Legs.

[Almond Brown]

The Boz, on 22 September 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

The most heat-effective energy build puts out less DPS and does it for a shorter amount of time than the same mech can put out with just 10 heat sinks and autocannons.

The most heat-effective energy build never deals with ammo explosions and never takes 20+ point of damage internally from what it is carrying as a payload, unlike the Mech that can while just carrying some auto-cannons.

[Mawai]

Well I have seen some very effective 4xERLL Stalker builds out there. They fire the lasers two at a time with a brief delay to avoid ghost heat. Presumably the rest of the mech is packed with a big engine and loads of heat sinks. With a little fire discipline I have seen these be extremely effective at both long and short range.

[Mawai]

Wolfways, on 24 September 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

You didn't. There are no "through armour crits" in MWO. That feature from the TT was removed as was ammo exploding from the mech getting too hot.
The only way to get an ammo explosion is if the ammo is crit after the armour on that section is gone, or damage from another section that is blown off is transferred to the section with ammo in it (I'm not sure if the transferred damage can cause crits though).
Basically, with the speed internals take damage, you can get an ammo explosion on a section you were about to lose anyway.

Edit: I think you can also get an ammo explosion from damage when you shutdown from overheating, but i'm not sure.

Actually, through armor criticals WERE in the game during closed beta and at least early open beta to the best of my knowledge. There were quite a number of examples of mechs being destroyed or components destroyed with no armor breached. It is possible that these examples were UI bugs. On the other hand, many of them were coupled with ammo explosions and destroyed mechs.

Another example was the fragility of the AC/20. These were frequently knocked out of commission long before the armor on the related mech section was eliminated due to the effect of armor bypassing critical hits. The AC/20 takes up so many critical slots that it is almost always hit if a critical occurs on a mech section. The probability of this event has obviously been adjusted (or through armor crits removed) ... can anyone report their AC/20s being knocked out before the armor is stripped these days?

However, PGI has tweaked the probabilities of these events. I think ammo explosions are down around 10% (when critted) now which makes them relatively infrequent since the component may well be destroyed before a crit can land. Similarly, the AC/20 has either had its hps increased or requires more than one crit to take out (or they removed through armor crits sometime in the last few months).

P.S. Do you have a dev reference on the removal of these features? I know I used to be able to kill myself with ammo explosions on overheating

Edited by Mawai, 09 October 2013 - 09:58 AM.

[Wolfways]

Mawai, on 09 October 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

Actually, through armor criticals WERE in the game during closed beta and at least early open beta to the best of my knowledge. There were quite a number of examples of mechs being destroyed or components destroyed with no armor breached. It is possible that these examples were UI bugs. On the other hand, many of them were coupled with ammo explosions and destroyed mechs.

Another example was the fragility of the AC/20. These were frequently knocked out of commission long before the armor on the related mech section was eliminated due to the effect of armor bypassing critical hits. The AC/20 takes up so many critical slots that it is almost always hit if a critical occurs on a mech section. The probability of this event has obviously been adjusted (or through armor crits removed) ... can anyone report their AC/20s being knocked out before the armor is stripped these days?

However, PGI has tweaked the probabilities of these events. I think ammo explosions are down around 10% (when critted) now which makes them relatively infrequent since the component may well be destroyed before a crit can land. Similarly, the AC/20 has either had its hps increased or requires more than one crit to take out (or they removed through armor crits sometime in the last few months).

P.S. Do you have a dev reference on the removal of these features? I know I used to be able to kill myself with ammo explosions on overheating

I didn't know they were in the game. Maybe it was before i started. I don't ever remember seeing anything being destroyed before the armour was gone and i'd read a few times on these forums people saying there were no through armour crits.
Actually, just as i'm writing this i think that the AC20 on the Atlas used to get destroyed quite fast...not entirely sure if it was before the armour though.
I know you can get ammo explosions through overheating now as i've done it myself

[Vodrin Thales]

Mawai, on 09 October 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

Actually, through armor criticals WERE in the game during closed beta and at least early open beta to the best of my knowledge. There were quite a number of examples of mechs being destroyed or components destroyed with no armor breached. It is possible that these examples were UI bugs. On the other hand, many of them were coupled with ammo explosions and destroyed mechs.

Another example was the fragility of the AC/20. These were frequently knocked out of commission long before the armor on the related mech section was eliminated due to the effect of armor bypassing critical hits. The AC/20 takes up so many critical slots that it is almost always hit if a critical occurs on a mech section. The probability of this event has obviously been adjusted (or through armor crits removed) ... can anyone report their AC/20s being knocked out before the armor is stripped these days?

However, PGI has tweaked the probabilities of these events. I think ammo explosions are down around 10% (when critted) now which makes them relatively infrequent since the component may well be destroyed before a crit can land. Similarly, the AC/20 has either had its hps increased or requires more than one crit to take out (or they removed through armor crits sometime in the last few months).

P.S. Do you have a dev reference on the removal of these features? I know I used to be able to kill myself with ammo explosions on overheating

I lost my AC 20 before armor was stripped a number of times in CB and early OB, but I have not had it happen in months now.

[Serpentbane]

Almond Brown, on 09 October 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

The most heat-effective energy build never deals with ammo explosions and never takes 20+ point of damage internally from what it is carrying as a payload, unlike the Mech that can while just carrying some auto-cannons.

Well, personally I feel I have a lot less to worry about running my balistic builds than energy builds. Yes, what you say is somewhat true, but at that point you are as good as dead anyways. The actual negative effects on balistics are much less of a problem.
I usually have no problems dealing with energy builds while running balistics on mid or short range, because I can just plunge inn with my AC's. The dakka dakka will make him back and miss, and shortly he will strugle with heat issues, either waiting a long time before fireing, or just shutting down. Yeah, fun. Well, not when you're sitting in the energy build.

Yes you could go for long range pops, or hide behind your friends kinda fights, and you can some times do good damage if you're carefull or lucky. But all over, balistic builds are so much more effective.

Barantor, on 08 October 2013 - 03:49 AM, said:

My 8Q has 2 ppcs (distance shots) and 2 large lasers (mid range) and 3 medium lasers (for lights). I don't use all at once because that is pants on head ******** and I will overheat all the time. If you want to fire tons of lasers at once then you are just going to overheat.

I personally feel this has made for more balanced loadouts and for as much as you don't like taking LRMs on a stalker, they keep peoples heads down and even sometimes get kills. I love folks saying LRMs are useless......

Dont get me wrong, I like LRM's, and have LRM focused builds. I often deal 1000-1200 DMG in a round and all that, and LRM's are a valuable asset for the team. Even so, I would like to choose.

Edited by Serpentbane, 15 October 2013 - 12:54 PM.

[Serpentbane]

And why do lights and assaults have the same amount of slots? Assaults should be able to mount a double HS or two in each leg. Assaults should also have more slots in general.

[Aurien Titus]

The 'mech is only half the equation. I could give the most perfect most awesome build to a crappy pilot and watch them fail miserably. Maybe the issue isn't the 'mech's, but the pilot.

[Satan n stuff]

Wolfways, on 09 October 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

I didn't know they were in the game. Maybe it was before i started. I don't ever remember seeing anything being destroyed before the armour was gone and i'd read a few times on these forums people saying there were no through armour crits.
Actually, just as i'm writing this i think that the AC20 on the Atlas used to get destroyed quite fast...not entirely sure if it was before the armour though.
I know you can get ammo explosions through overheating now as i've done it myself

They were never officially in the game, those were bugs that have since been fixed.
The AC/20 got destroyed so fast because back then it only had 10 HP.
As fa as I know overheating will randomly damage items on your mech once you start taking damage from it, but other than that you can't get an ammo explosion without having armor stripped first.

[Serpentbane]

Aurien Titus, on 25 October 2013 - 07:17 PM, said:

The 'mech is only half the equation. I could give the most perfect most awesome build to a crappy pilot and watch them fail miserably. Maybe the issue isn't the 'mech's, but the pilot.

While it is true a bad player can mess up in a great build, it is not relevant for this discussion.

What you say is essentially that I'm a noob, and that there is nothing wrong with heat management, in particular energy builds. Well, I run both balistic builds as well as energy, LRM and mixed builds, and I have a K/D ratio well in the green. I have several matches with more than 1000dmg.

I find this type of replies both dumb and short sighted, as they imply that there can not be anything wrong with the game, and ppl pointing out issues are just noobs.

***** n stuff, on 26 October 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

They were never officially in the game, those were bugs that have since been fixed.
The AC/20 got destroyed so fast because back then it only had 10 HP.
As fa as I know overheating will randomly damage items on your mech once you start taking damage from it, but other than that you can't get an ammo explosion without having armor stripped first.

I find this strange as I have seen several mechs go down without being stripped of armor, according to my instruments that is.

[Satan n stuff]

Serpentbane, on 26 October 2013 - 02:36 AM, said:

I find this strange as I have seen several mechs go down without being stripped of armor, according to my instruments that is.

That seems unlikely, but it's possible the interface is bugged or there's a connection issue that prevents you from seeing the damage, or maybe you just didn't notice it. Do you have any screenshots?

[arghmace]

I find it quite annoying that LL is cooler than ML when talking about dmg/heat. This means that if you have a build with let's say 2LL and 4ML you are better off forgetting the ML's even up close and using the LL's when running hot. It would make much more sense if weapons with more range would always be hotter.

[Crazy Billy Joe Bob]

Wolfways, on 21 September 2013 - 07:45 PM, said:

I've bought and sold my Stalker-3F over and over because i kind of like it (for an IS mech) but with so many energy hardpoints and no ballistics it's just too hard to find a build that doesn't melt the mech in a short time.
But then, i've basically given up on lasers in general. Why take a mech that overheats so much when you can use ballistics for much lower heat and much higher dps?

that's why this game is totally borked.

[Ghost_19Hz]

Ballistics required that you load ammo. Energy required that you load heatsinks. Fast forward to now:

2.0 in engines, 1.4 outside... think about how stupid this is in relation to energy weapons for a moment