26 replies to this topic

[tib3r]

I have kinda gathered that there really is a weird in between with these two.

The hunch back could have armor on par with a heavy mech if loaded out right and the speed and firepower to keep up with one, but the blackjack could be made to be a little quicker at the expense of armor, however the firepower wouldn't be on the same level.

I am kinda torn between the two right now.

Even stranger still I am considering the Hunchback instead of my jagermechs all together, I have seen them take more abuse and dish out a {Scrap} load of firepower as well. Tthoughts?

[Shaftronics]

The thing is, its more common to fit XL Engines on most Jagermech builds and they also skimp on armor to provide maximum damage, so they seem way more fragile than they usually are.

The Blackjack has the advantage of Jump Jets, always a bonus when you're a sniper looking for a good position.

Hunchbacks and Centurions with Standard Engines have always been quite hardy and are well-known for Zombie builds.

Though much less most variants of the Hunchback; Everyone knows which part to shoot off first.

[tib3r]

I really don't know about my jagermechs. They can shell it out well and good, but... they cant take {Scrap} for abuse.

[Zordicron]

Jagers are built 3 ways.
First way: std engine, moderate firepower. These builds are slower usually, and dont generally carry the dual gauss or AC20 or even AC10 loadouts, maybe the 10's but with minimal support weapons and probably not enough HS or ammo. They are more duarable, but only if handled correctly. They need to play more caustiously at longer range then other jagers, because they dont have the speed to escape or even turn and twist as well. Some loadouts are potent, but usually use DPS type things, like AC2 or pair of AC5. My A has 2x AC2 and SRM20 with a std for example, with tweak it can do about 70k, quick enough to be nimble for aiming SRM, but not enough to really get a drop on someone.

Second way: XL engine, MASSIVE heavy loadout. Dual AC20, Dual Gauss, triple AC5 and ML, etc. The XL isnt used here for speed, but to free up tonnage for more boomstick. These are the notorious fragile Jagers, to slow to protect the XL, though fierce in combat.

3rd way: My firebrand and DD are like this, XL engine for speed and moderate range DPS with close range DPS support. my DD does 85k or some such with tweak, 2x UAC5 and 4x MG, 2xMPL. good DPS at mid range, ferocious at close range, speed to turn and escape and out turn your foe, at least the foes big enough to hurt bad. With the speed where it is, I dont have too much issue spreading dmg out over the whole torso so durability is on par with my std engine A.

You need to pick a style that fits you. if your Jager feels squishy, try a different style.

As for Hunch and blackjack, apples and oranges IMO. BJ is more agile for sure, JJ make it speedy around maps. It runs hot, or with less firepower, depends on how you like it. Hunchie is a beast, but you have to be nimble. I have the P, SP, and the J. my J is slower, but I put LRM25 worth of LRM on it, with ML and SL both x3 for close combat and self defense. Works out good if you keep away from the pointy ends of stalkers and such. The other two, all ML and giant engine, SP has 2 SRM6. Hit and fade, flank your foe if you tyhink you can and maintain some DPS on it, or escape and return. Move to support your team. ML hunchies are an Atlas best pal. The ballistic hunchies play more like slow heavy, you have good support fire but you need to pay close attention to positioning so you dont get trapped.

BJ, I havent messed with it much yet. The ones I see, the best have like one or two solid long range weapons, like PPC or ERLL, and some ML for support and solid speed and JJ. They dont brawl. They move, hit, move hit, keep by the team and help spot and support fire. They can lay out some wicked damage, but if someone catches them they usually have a hard go of it, most put XL in as far as I know to make the tonnage for a bigger engine. JJ love a big engine, slow makes JJ cry.

thats my thoughts on this anyway

[Ezazel]

Hunchies and Jagers are great mechs. What I love about them both is the high held weapons. You can peek over hills and fire while mostly in cover. BJs have the same feature and I've seen some people pull crazy damage with them but for me they feel very very fragile. I've been one shotted in the thing.

[Jam the Bam]

BJ's are great mechs but you have to play very carefully, it's all about using your small size and manoeuvrability to get the drop on people then firing off an alpha and hiding away behind an object or a friendly mech. Single AC20 and 2 med lasers in a BJ-1 works very nicely, but be careful, you won't survive a real brawl with anything else.

Hunchies are just pretty solid all round brawling mediums, not massively agile but can carry pretty decent armour and a decent heavy load out.

Jagermechs can carry some nasty load outs but be careful with their barn door profiles, can be pretty fragile if you are not careful, but can also carry some of the scariest weapon combinations in game.

[tib3r]

I have gotten a lot better with my JMs, I have figured out there... quirk. I have this sort of hit and run heavy mech thing stuck in my head (thanks to playing a fast moving quickdraw with jets for so long) but with my JM I have found that its a lot of fun, and when I had my best run ever with one I was sold.

What I was kinda thinking with a BJ was make it similar (all my JMs have maxed out armor, XL engines) and instead of the dual AC10s I run, run dual AC5s or dual LLs and enjoy the extra speed. Enough to run down light mechs if I must, and play like a JM in lots of regards.

The joy JMs give me is the long range fire, and the ability to surprise someone and be nasty. I just kinda wanted something like the jager with more speed sometimes, especially when its conquest.

[Tagteamz]

any reason why my ac-2s and ml's all fire together whenever i left click? i cant figure out how to stop it, the ac-2s are on my arms and the mls are on my side torsos. but instead of going on left click/1 and 3 they both fire on left click/1 always.

[Training Instructor]

I have three hunchbacks I just finished elites on: SP, G, and P. They're okay, but I'm not really in love with any of them. I've had a couple of 700+ damage games with the SP and G, but something about the P is a bit off for me. There's an ELO level you'll hit with them where that hunch will disappear in seconds because people are good enough shots to focus it really quickly, and it can be hit from almost any angle. That's where the Hback will become extremely frustrating, because you'll feel powerless to stop it from happening unless you hide for most of the match.

I've mastered the BJ-1X, BJ-1, and BJ-3, and I absolutely love them. Maneuverable, and symmetrical high-mounted hardpoints.

If you like your jaegers, you'll probably like the blackjack, because it's a lot more maneuverable, and it's fairly safe to use an xl. You can run a nasty six medium laser build with max jump jets and max standard engine on the BJ-3. It's like a slower Jenner that can actually dump heat.

If you're torn between hunchbacks and blackjacks, just ask yourself how much you really like missiles. If you're kind of "meh" about missiles, or indifferent, I'd go with the blackjack. I have a lot more fun in them than I do in my hbacks. Oh, I'd buy the three models I listed. The BJ-1DC doesn't really offer much over any other variant.

[Alex Wolfe]

Jaggermech is a heavy, so it's a couple classes above Hunchback or Blackjack. Taking a medium is always a handicap, Jag can carry a lot more weapons and more varied weapons, can also take more punishment on either of his sides than the others (BJ needs XL to perform, and HBK has very few weapons left after RT is taken out), it can run almost as fast as mediums. It's no contest.

Blackjack and Hunchback are the rare mediums that seem about properly sized. Hunchback has a very obvious weak point (besides SP), Blackjacks have very little tonnage to work with, so they're essentially a walking weak point, but they have high mounted weapons and jets and decent hardpoints, for whatever it's worth.

Jaggermech >>>>>> Blackjack > Hunchback SP >>> other Hunchbacks imo.

tib3r, on 22 September 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

The hunch back could have armor on par with a heavy mech if loaded out right and the speed and firepower to keep up with one

Sorry, but you're wrong here. All mechs of the same tonnage have the same armor. Maximum armor Hunchback has exactly same armor as maximum armor Trebuchet, and less than max armor Kintaro for example.

Pretty much all builds, be it LRM boat or brawler, will do well to always max armor or anything but legs and possibly arms. Hunchback has no armor advantage over other mechs, indeed it has a disadvantage because its RT can be targeted from each direction, even directly behind.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 25 September 2013 - 02:03 AM.

[NRP]

Tagteamz, on 24 September 2013 - 11:02 PM, said:

any reason why my ac-2s and ml's all fire together whenever i left click? i cant figure out how to stop it, the ac-2s are on my arms and the mls are on my side torsos. but instead of going on left click/1 and 3 they both fire on left click/1 always.

You need to set your weapon groups. Do this by highlighting each weapon (with the arrow keys) and assigning it to a group with the CTRL key.

By default, mouse button 1 is weapon group 1, mouse button 2 is weapon group 2, etc.

[Empanada]

I was a (honestly pretty crappy) Jager pilot and currently a (decent in my opinion) BJ pilot.

I went from the Jager to the Jack because I couldn't find a play style for it that worked for me, always ended killed without doing too much (with my best Jager I have a paltry 0.49 KDR and ~150 damage/match), although it is a nice weapon platform it was too big and slow (turning), so when they made the BJ available for C-Bill purchase I sold my then current JM-6S for a BJ-1DC.

Although I liked that chassis, and found the 2xAC2 quite effective when used as support with that high mounted arms and fairly small profile, when I added the BJ-3 (2xERPPC) I felt the lack of JJ that did limit the -1DC in mobility. Eventually I got the BJ-1 (to master the chassis) and ended just like my -1DC but with JJ. It is actually my main mech and sold the other two (the -1DC felt limited, as I didn't use the extra hardpoints, and I did less in match with the -3 as the long cooldown of the ERPPC made me to more timid and spend more time hiding and less doing damage). I have it with a XL engine, because although I felt the reduction in survivability when I made the change, the improvement in speed and agility made it worthwhile for me.

Most of the successful Jack pilots I have seen/faced in battle opt for more common builds (like the 1xAC20, 1xGauss, or the -1X/-3 boated with ML), but I have found the Jack makes a decent DPS support, since your heavy/assault allies are seen as the higher thread and you can usually do damage without attracting much attention. Although (as a strict PUG player) I have found a lot of heavy/assault PUG players can get really annoyed with a few AC2 rounds, enough to give your team time to freely fire on them, and if you hid well, they will mostly miss (it seems to be really hard to hit a Jack behind cover with only the arms exposed from more than 500 m).

It is a fragile mech although, and I have gotten killed more than a few times because I exposed myself with less than full armour and got one-shoted by a PPC/Gauss/AC20 carrying heavy. And is a very team-dependant build, if your allies are getting killed faster than the enemy, you will [almost] inevitably end in a close range fight and that is [almost] always a losing proposition with my Jack.

I haven't piloted any Hunch, but it is a very decent mech with a good pilot (short range mediums are one of the mechs that make my life harder, they usually pull me out of my position, or at least force me to stop hitting the heavies), and Jager are certainly dangerous, I just couldn't make it work for me.

[jper4]

of the 3 mechs. i've masted 3 hunchies/jagers and 4Blackjacks (i like them so sue me)

the hunchy 4sp is my most successful mech of the bunch. 5ML, 1ssrm,bap. 97kph brawler with zombie potential. have a 4G and 4P but i don't do anything special in them. 4G works best w/ an ac20- currently being silly with 2LPLs, 1ML and 3MG, for some reason it's actually done ok surprisingly in limited usage... hunchies also let you use streaks- i mean missiles for those pesky lights. haven;t played the other hunchies though

jagers are solid enough and i use one setup Eldagore didn;t mention. JGR-S. ac20, 5 tons of ammo and 4ML with a std engine runs in the high 70s (i forget exactly what). Poor man's ac40 since the max alpha is the same if you can keep the lasers on one spot and ammo lasts all but the longest matches and then you still have lasers to use after unlike the ac40. but as heavies they are targeted at a higher priority than the hunchy/blackjack. i've been using the A as an artemis srm 6 boat and tossed a couple of uac5s on the DD with less success than the S.

blackjacks i like but are the most fragile of the three. good news- you can/need to use an xl engine but the side torsos are small enough you die to CT first 9 times out of 10. bad news- you can't take much damage and your arms can't help absorb damage like hunchies and especiallt cents do. moderate news- you're not seen as a serious threat in a group so you might get ignored at the beginning (til the ac20 round hits at least)

i do have the ac20 BJ-1 w/ 3SPLs (heat is a bit better vs ML). the 1x is tough to use all 8 lasers without heat issues so i switched to 4MPLs since i find myself fighting lights more with them and my aim is lousy plus they're at good leg height on bigger mechs. the DC suffers from no JJs (otherwise it's more or less just like a 1- had the same setup for a time but don;t like repeating loads so switched to something else i don;t recall atm), and i just use 6MLs on the 3 (with a std engine since i didn;t like any of the bigger laser/ppc xl versions i toyed with). i tried ac2/5s instead of the 20s but they don;t work as well for me (i have too much of a brawler mentality vs mid/long range supporter.

[Cerberias]

Jager with a STD 200 and either 2ac2/2ac5, firebrand with 2ppc/ac10 (225 std), dual gauss 200std, dual ac20 200std... jagers with xl's drop like flies.. big side torso combined with side torso loss taking out your entire mech makes for some superfast engine pops, but if you use that advantage with a STD to spread damage properly you do good damage and can take a beating...

Blackjack with ac20 or gauss and 3 med las std 200 works well as a thorn in the enemies side... but is fragile to being cored CT since it's a rather large hitbox comparatively.

Hunchie is no good.. don't see the point to it, perhaps the 2srm/5ml std 260 build since it's a brawler similar to the cent that can take out lights easier but can't take damage aswell without losing weapons fast.

[Phlinger]

My favorite Jager is my Firebrand running a 340xl, 93kph with speedtweak, 1 AC/20 and 5 ML and, I think, 17 DHS's. Play it as a very fast striker that can core a mech in 2 alphas or leg a medium and some heavies in 1 alpha. Only fire the AC/20 if you know your round is going to hit where you want, otherwise use the ML's because they don't require ammo.I have the speed to duck behind cover and come back out to smack hard. With this mech, don't hesitate to leg a mech, slowing anything down is better when you duck behind cover and circle them to finish them off. Just if you stray too far from cover, you will get cored, quickly I might add.

My BJ-1 I run almost the same build as my Firebrand, but with JJ's. It's a little slower, but your first flying AC/20 round to the face you deliver, will make you a believer. 225xl 1AC/20 3ML.

[Kjudoon]

Ronyn, on 01 October 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

My favorite Jager is my Firebrand running a 340xl, 93kph with speedtweak, 1 AC/20 and 5 ML and, I think, 17 DHS's. Play it as a very fast striker that can core a mech in 2 alphas or leg a medium and some heavies in 1 alpha. Only fire the AC/20 if you know your round is going to hit where you want, otherwise use the ML's because they don't require ammo.I have the speed to duck behind cover and come back out to smack hard. With this mech, don't hesitate to leg a mech, slowing anything down is better when you duck behind cover and circle them to finish them off. Just if you stray too far from cover, you will get cored, quickly I might add.

My BJ-1 I run almost the same build as my Firebrand, but with JJ's. It's a little slower, but your first flying AC/20 round to the face you deliver, will make you a believer. 225xl 1AC/20 3ML.

What is that? Not that I don't want a faster JM but I've not seen anything like that yet.

[Zordicron]

Alex Wolfe, on 25 September 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:

Sorry, but you're wrong here. All mechs of the same tonnage have the same armor. Maximum armor Hunchback has exactly same armor as maximum armor Trebuchet, and less than max armor Kintaro for example.

Pretty much all builds, be it LRM boat or brawler, will do well to always max armor or anything but legs and possibly arms. Hunchback has no armor advantage over other mechs, indeed it has a disadvantage because its RT can be targeted from each direction, even directly behind.

Thing about the hunch, if you actually take the time to look at the hitbox you would see that the size of the rear RT is less then 1/8 of the total area on the back. Almost all dmg goes to the front RT. so, if you change the armor points, you can put over 40 points to the front. Roughly the same as a "normal" armor allocation for a dragon, and maybe 9 points shy of a jager that weighs 15 tons more. Sure, it will get hit from the back some, but so what. if you shoot that dragon in the back the armor is stripped right off.

If you allocate the hunchback armor right picking off the RT is not so easy as people think it is.

Try doing that in a trebuchet and see what happens. They might be the same, but they really arent the same, even discounting completely the differences in size of different medium mechs, as you can use the quirks of the chassis and hitbox to advantage.

[Elyam]

A good pilot in any of the 3 can do well while making the most of each design. but the Jagermech is inherently stronger. Try one some time with the Rifleman loadout: 2 AC/5, 2 LLAS, 2 MLAS, XL engine, endo, high armor, and the rest DHS. It is one of the most effective builds in the game.

[Phobic Wraith]

Just thought I'd log in and give my two cents. I can't say I have much experience with blackjacks (none), but I can say that I've got a bit of experience with hunchbacks. In fact I've piloted the 4H, the 4P, and the 4SP almost exclusively. They are horrible fire support. They suffer from medium syndrome, and everybody and their mom shoots at your hunch if they have anything between their ears, but heavens do they wreck mechs in a fight. 1 on 1, I rarely have trouble with anything. Occasionally a good phract pilot will rain on my parade, but there's something... primal about cruisin at 90kph with an ac/20. It's like bringing a sledgehammer to a debate tournament. Get the hunchback. We'll be hunchbuddies. I promise you won't regret it.

Edited by Phobic Wraith, 02 October 2013 - 04:39 PM.

[Phlinger]

Kjudoon, on 02 October 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

What is that? Not that I don't want a faster JM but I've not seen anything like that yet.

The elite Pilot skill, speeds your mech by 10%. In order to unlock the Elite skill tree you have to unlock all the basic skills of 3 chasis of the same mech. So 3 Jagermechs, 3 Hunchback or 3 Blackjacks, and believe me, it is worth it. After playign for awhile you will have many mechs elite trees unlocked, it only takes time.