105 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

In TT, heat penalties start at # of SHSE* + 5 (i.e. 5 residual heat) and go up to # of SHSE + 30**.
In MWO, heat penalties start at # of SHSE + 30 and go on... forever?

In TT, heat penalties include increasingly slower movement, increasingly worse targeting, increasing risk of ammo explosion, and increasing risk of shutdown.
In MWO, heat penalties include... shutdown at cap.

For heat to be anything like what it should be in the BattleTech Universe, there needs to be more heat penalties, and they need to start sooner.

* Single Heat Sink Equivalent; 1 SHS = 1 SHSE, 1 DHS = 2 SHSE
** Yes, I know there's optional rules for heat over 30 residual, but 30 residual is a hard cap. Shutdown, no avoid.

[MustrumRidcully]

stjobe, on 24 September 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

In TT, heat penalties start at # of SHSE* + 5 (i.e. 5 residual heat) and go up to # of SHSE + 30**.
In MWO, heat penalties start at # of SHSE + 30 and go on... forever?

In TT, heat penalties include increasingly slower movement, increasingly worse targeting, increasing risk of ammo explosion, and increasing risk of shutdown.
In MWO, heat penalties include... shutdown at cap.

For heat to be anything like what it should be in the BattleTech Universe, there needs to be more heat penalties, and they need to start sooner.

* Single Heat Sink Equivalent; 1 SHS = 1 SHSE, 1 DHS = 2 SHSE
** Yes, I know there's optional rules for heat over 30 residual, but 30 residual is a hard cap. Shutdown, no avoid.

Model 3 perhaps to your liking?
http://mwomercs.com/...em-suggestions/

[stjobe]

MustrumRidcully, on 24 September 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Model 3 perhaps to your liking?
http://mwomercs.com/...em-suggestions/

Yep, looks good.

To be fair though, just about any of those suggestions are better than the bland, almost digital system we have now. No penalty, no penalty, no penalty - shutdown! Where's the fun in that?

[Der_Goetz]

The problem with all this is, if the had indroduced heat penalities right at the beginning we havn´t had the most problem we have/had right now.

For example the light swarms, if a jenner which gets too hot become slow and idly, the lights were really careful what they do when enemy mechs are around. Or the alpha meta, when at 75% heat the shot goes straight to the sky and destroys alderan, the can´t fire pinpoint all the time.

But now they can´t do it the easy way and must change a lot of code. But if they do it know they don´t get a lot more problems with balancing.

Edited by Drake Grayson, 24 September 2013 - 11:34 PM.

[focuspark]

stjobe, on 24 September 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

In TT, heat penalties start at # of SHSE* + 5 (i.e. 5 residual heat) and go up to # of SHSE + 30**.
In MWO, heat penalties start at # of SHSE + 30 and go on... forever?

In TT, heat penalties include increasingly slower movement, increasingly worse targeting, increasing risk of ammo explosion, and increasing risk of shutdown.
In MWO, heat penalties include... shutdown at cap.

For heat to be anything like what it should be in the BattleTech Universe, there needs to be more heat penalties, and they need to start sooner.

* Single Heat Sink Equivalent; 1 SHS = 1 SHSE, 1 DHS = 2 SHSE
** Yes, I know there's optional rules for heat over 30 residual, but 30 residual is a hard cap. Shutdown, no avoid.

Yes but in TT heat penalties were applied after 10 seconds (next turn) not immediately.

I'm happy either having heat sinks add a small overhead to the heat capacity, or not. I'm just pointing out the facts here.

[Karl Streiger]

focuspark, on 25 September 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

Yes but in TT heat penalties were applied after 10 seconds (next turn) not immediately.

Hm actually they were applied after you fired your gun...wait one.

heat creation is the sum of weapon discharge and charging...aye?

the ACs for example produce heat only while "discharging" the gun

a Laser or a PPC produces heat for discharge and charge

gauss produce heat for discharging and much more for charging the gun.

you can split the heat- for example a LLAS will produce 5 during the beam duration and the other 3 heat points are applied durign the cool down.

can delay an immediate shutdown for light mechs - allow them to fire there guns and there jump jets to fly into cover.
(jump jets are not effected by heat problems however)

[MustrumRidcully]

focuspark, on 25 September 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

Yes but in TT heat penalties were applied after 10 seconds (next turn) not immediately.

I'm happy either having heat sinks add a small overhead to the heat capacity, or not. I'm just pointing out the facts here.

Does that really matter?

People point out all the time this isn't a table top game. Real time brings some changes, that's not avoidable. So you get immediately hit with your heat penalties. But you also don't have to live with them for a full 10 seconds, your heat will recover and so your penalties will drop, too. While firing, you will never be at top performance, but you'll also never be as limited as you would have been in the table top. It won't even out 100 %, but it's not like we could use the TT penalties 100 % either.

Here are some ideas for heat penalties:
http://mwomercs.com/...tem-suggestions

[Khobai]

There goes PGI blaming double heatsinks again :\

The problem has never been heat. The problem is precise aim and perfect convergence.

We do not need ******** heat penalties. Mechs already run much hotter than they do in tabletop, and it makes the game less enjoyable already. What needs to be addressed is the fact damage is exponentially increased by aiming/convergence and that armor/internal structure values are inadequate to handle the damage.

Edited by Khobai, 25 September 2013 - 08:10 AM.

[Zyllos]

Khobai, on 25 September 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

There goes PGI blaming double heatsinks again :\

The problem has never been heat. The problem is precise aim and perfect convergence.

We do not need ******** heat penalties. Mechs already run much hotter than they do in tabletop, and it makes the game less enjoyable. What needs to be addressed is the fact damage is exponentially increased by aiming/convergence.

That is not 100% true.

It's a combination of convergence, heat, and hardpoints.

[Khobai]

Quote

It's a combination of convergence, heat, and hardpoints.

Nah its really got nothing to do with heat or hardpoints. Tabletop runs way cooler and doesnt restrict you to hardpoints at all and the system is better balanced. The reason is because TT has random hit locations and no convergence.

[stjobe]

Khobai, on 25 September 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

Nah its really got nothing to do with heat or hardpoints. Tabletop runs way cooler and doesnt restrict you to hardpoints at all and the system is better balanced. The reason is because TT has random hit locations and no convergence.

So tripling rate of fire (and therefore heat generated) but keeping the same dissipation rate as in TT doesn't affect heat you say?

[Almond Brown]

Khobai, on 25 September 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

Nah its really got nothing to do with heat or hardpoints. Tabletop runs way cooler and doesnt restrict you to hardpoints at all and the system is better balanced. The reason is because TT has random hit locations and no convergence.

And MWO with all Mechs as one big square/rectangular Target box and having all weapon hits that fall inside that Square be randomly assigned to one of the Mechs 10 RagDoll locations would be a real blast right? NOT!

If any of the ideas in this thread actually looked big picture, then perhaps the Dev could be enticed. All there is here is what some folks want or think would be best, all without thinking BIG picture.

The Dev do not have that luxury.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 25 September 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

Nah its really got nothing to do with heat or hardpoints. Tabletop runs way cooler and doesnt restrict you to hardpoints at all and the system is better balanced. The reason is because TT has random hit locations and no convergence.

I'm pretty sure that TT builds like 21+ ER Small Lasers, 16 ER Medium Lasers, or 16 LRM5 aren't all that balanced.

[Joseph Mallan]

FupDup, on 25 September 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure that TT builds like 21+ ER Small Lasers, 16 ER Medium Lasers, or 16 LRM5 aren't all that balanced.

Or common.

[focuspark]

MustrumRidcully, on 25 September 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

Does that really matter?

People point out all the time this isn't a table top game. Real time brings some changes, that's not avoidable. So you get immediately hit with your heat penalties. But you also don't have to live with them for a full 10 seconds, your heat will recover and so your penalties will drop, too. While firing, you will never be at top performance, but you'll also never be as limited as you would have been in the table top. It won't even out 100 %, but it's not like we could use the TT penalties 100 % either.

Here are some ideas for heat penalties:
http://mwomercs.com/...tem-suggestions

No, it doesn't matter. I'm just playing devil's advocate and pointing out all of the facts.

I personally abhor the way heat is handled in MWO.

IMO, heat capacity should a result of 'mech mass crossed with engine mass and have nothing to do with the number of heat sinks. Yup, this would mean bigger 'mechs can contain more heat, but that makes sense because they have more mass to absorb the heat with.

Heat should also create screen shake and create the risk of an ammo exposition long before max heat capacity is reached.

Something along these lines:

>25% capacity: constant screen shake equal to being hit by AC/2 fire
>50% capacity: constant screen shake equal to being hit by AC/5 fire & 1% chance per second of an ammo bin exploding
>75% capacity: constant screen shake equal to being hit by AC/10 fire & 3% chance per second of an ammo bin exploding>
>90% capacity: constant screen shake equal to being hit by AC/20 fire & 5% chance per second of an ammo bin exploding
>100% capacity: system shutdown, no override & 5% chance of reactor failure resulting in 'mech death & 5% chance per second of an ammo bin exploding

[Wolfways]

Dracol, on 23 September 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

That would be a buff to heavies and assualts

IMHO, anything that gives mediums and lights a little extra edge is a good thing... and how DHS are set up now, they're leaning towards buffing lights/mediums more so then heavies/assaults that can install large numbers of heat sinks.

And that's exactly why they should be 2.0 and the efficiencies removed. Equal heat sinks for all.

[Khobai]

Quote

I'm pretty sure that TT builds like 21+ ER Small Lasers, 16 ER Medium Lasers, or 16 LRM5 aren't all that balanced.

You cant fire any of those combinations of weapons without shutting down.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 25 September 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

You cant fire any of those combinations of weapons without shutting down.

Oh yes you can, you just need a lot of DHS. Here is an example of the ER Small Laser build:

25 ER Small Lasers, 13 tons of armor, XL 300 (5/8 speed or 86.4 kph), 23 DHS. Net heat per turn of 6 (if running full speed).

Edited by FupDup, 25 September 2013 - 01:24 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

25 ER Small Lasers, 13 tons of armor, XL 300 (5/8 speed or 86.4 kph), 23 DHS. Net heat per turn of 6 (if running full speed).

Ok the ER small lasers maybe, but certainly not the ER mediums. Also 25 ER smalls is far from overpowered. Thats only 75 damage which is crazy spread out and very short ranged. There are far more effective combinations of weapons. For example, 5 Gauss Rifles can do 75 damage, but in 15 point clusters, from across the map.

The point being, boating dozens of lasers is normally a non-issue in tabletop, because the damage gets so spread out. The only overpowered type of boating in tabletop is boating gauss rifles and certain clan weapons like large pulses/erppcs. Everything else is mostly fine.

Again, boating isnt the problem. Hardpoint limitations are just another bandaid slapped on by PGI to try and limit the overpoweredness of convergence. Same with the current heat system dissipating one-third as fast as it should, its just another artificial limitation to try and limit how strong convergence is. Same with double armor and ghost heat. Pretty much everything PGI has done has been to limit convergence in one way or another... instead of just fixing convergence.

Edited by Khobai, 25 September 2013 - 03:11 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 25 September 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

Ok the ER small lasers maybe, but certainly not the ER mediums. Also 25 ER smalls is far from overpowered. Thats only 75 damage which is crazy spread out and very short ranged. There are far more effective combinations of weapons. For example, 5 Gauss Rifles can do 75 damage, but in 15 point clusters, from across the map.

The point being, boating dozens of lasers is normally a non-issue in tabletop, because the damage gets so spread out. The only overpowered type of boating in tabletop is boating gauss rifles and certain clan weapons like large pulses/erppcs. Everything else is mostly fine.

Actually, the Clan ER Smalls do 5 damage each, so 5 x 25 = 125 potential damage (not of all of them will hit, obviously). And yes, there are naturally a lot better combinations out there (for example, my all time favorite Clan mech, the Hellstar, runs 4 CERPPCs and 30 DHS). This is just an example of a typical munchkin build intended to push the limits of the game and be cheesy.

Khobai, on 25 September 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

Again, boating isnt the problem. Hardpoint limitations are just another bandaid slapped on by PGI to try and limit the overpoweredness of convergence. Same with the current heat system dissipating one-third as fast as it should, its just another artificial limitation to try and limit how strong convergence is. Same with double armor and ghost heat. Pretty much everything PGI has done has been to limit convergence in one way or another... instead of just fixing convergence.

I know that boating isn't a problem, I'm just using boats for the TT examples because those are what munchkins always use. Hardpoints, at least in my eyes, aren't supposed to stop boating, they're just supposed to reinforce chassis roles (boating IS a valid role in my opinion).

Edited by FupDup, 25 September 2013 - 03:23 PM.