105 replies to this topic

[Dracol]

Wolfways, on 25 September 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

And that's exactly why they should be 2.0 and the efficiencies removed. Equal heat sinks for all.

So, you are for making mediums even less represented on the battlefield? Assualtwarrior Online is your preferred game style maybe?

[Wolfways]

Dracol, on 26 September 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

So, you are for making mediums even less represented on the battlefield? Assualtwarrior Online is your preferred game style maybe?

Yes, that's exactly what i mean by "equal heat sinks for all"

There's no need to nerf one class to improve another, and i don't know what this "assaultwarrior" thing is that people talk about. In my matches all weight classes are represented pretty much equally. If there's more of any class it's usually lights.
I've been seeing more mediums lately too.

[Tetatae Squawkins]

Quote

Title: DOES PGI ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT?

No.

[Orkhepaj]

Just remove double heat sinks and balance everything to single ones---> much better game.

[Corvus Antaka]

MustrumRidcully, on 23 September 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

"Heat Neutral Mechs are the Devil"

A swayback hunchie with 4 MLaser and stacked with 21 DHS would put you around guaranteed heat neutral in tabletop. Even mech3.

so then the mech never overheats. Ever. Ever 4s, you get hit for 20dmg. This never stops. this hunchback hits every shot, every 4 seconds, giving us a neverending dps of 5dmg/s

In actuality the only guns that currently give us this are ballistics the 5's and uac and the 10..almost. but they need a lot of tonnage and ammo..and still may be a touch cool (marginally, esp uac)

With heat neutrality 4 tons of MLaser with 5 dmg/s will equal the output of a uac/5. except the mlaser will never need ammo.

If we think about heat neutrality across mechs, it can already be achieved.

Build a stalker with only 2 LLaser in example.

You overbuild your mech, you pay in heat. you underbuild, you pay in firepower.

you can build heat neutral mechs already. the choice is the balance and pilot preference.

It's much better if everyone eventually overheats. This also forces every mech to take a break from firing to cool down briefly. pushing your mech means more than hitting 80% heat and watching it bleed down to 0 in 1.5s and firing again. heat neutral or mech3 type heatscale with TT DHS would let the 4 ERPPC stalker fire 2/2 much faster and more often than it does right now.

[Vassago Rain]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 27 September 2013 - 12:50 AM, said:

A swayback hunchie with 4 MLaser and stacked with 21 DHS would put you around guaranteed heat neutral in tabletop. Even mech3.

so then the mech never overheats. Ever. Ever 4s, you get hit for 20dmg. This never stops. this hunchback hits every shot, every 4 seconds, giving us a neverending dps of 5dmg/s

In actuality the only guns that currently give us this are ballistics the 5's and uac and the 10..almost. but they need a lot of tonnage and ammo..and still may be a touch cool (marginally, esp uac)

With heat neutrality 4 tons of MLaser with 5 dmg/s will equal the output of a uac/5. except the mlaser will never need ammo.

If we think about heat neutrality across mechs, it can already be achieved.

Build a stalker with only 2 LLaser in example.

You overbuild your mech, you pay in heat. you underbuild, you pay in firepower.

you can build heat neutral mechs already. the choice is the balance and pilot preference.

It's much better if everyone eventually overheats. This also forces every mech to take a break from firing to cool down briefly. pushing your mech means more than hitting 80% heat and watching it bleed down to 0 in 1.5s and firing again. heat neutral or mech3 type heatscale with TT DHS would let the 4 ERPPC stalker fire 2/2 much faster and more often than it does right now.

>guy devotes 25+ tons to heatsinks for his 4 medium lasers.
>too OP. NERF!

[Joseph Mallan]

Dracol, on 23 September 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

That would be a buff to heavies and assualts

IMHO, anything that gives mediums and lights a little extra edge is a good thing... and how DHS are set up now, they're leaning towards buffing lights/mediums more so then heavies/assaults that can install large numbers of heat sinks.

Only because fast Lights already have 10 full strength doubles and rarely need more. Assaults need to be able to bring more weapons to bare on speedy lights just to improve the chances of making it past lag or whatever has made it harder to it the lil buggers.

[General Taskeen]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 27 September 2013 - 12:50 AM, said:

It's much better if everyone eventually overheats. This also forces every mech to take a break from firing to cool down briefly. pushing your mech means more than hitting 80% heat and watching it bleed down to 0 in 1.5s and firing again. heat neutral or mech3 type heatscale with TT DHS would let the 4 ERPPC stalker fire 2/2 much faster and more often than it does right now.

Uh no. It has a cool down, so it can't fire "faster." It can only fire enough to avoid over heat. And no a 4 ER PPC Mech in MW3 blows up when firing everything or 2 and 2 really fast. You have to fire 2 ER PPC's = Heat jumps to 90%+ *Betty Warning - Mech Overheat!* ; Wait ; Fire other 2 ER PPC's = Back up to 90%+ *Betty Warning - Mech Overheat!*. About 21 DHS cools down very quickly, but it doesn't stop a fixed threshold from existing. You actually do overheat in that game and pay for it when over riding, same as MW:LL - your armor melts and then your internal/core gets destroyed.

And no you can't build heat neutral Mechs in MWO when you have builds taken straight from TT that were close to heat neutrality with just single heat sinks and are most definitely not anywhere close to heat neutrality in MWO.

And there are no actual heat penalties in MWO - 0 to 100% and nothing else, not even a visual representation alongside the heatbar of the level of "hotness" (green, yellow, red). No loss in speed, no loss in convergence, no ammo explosions, no nothing.

Edited by General Taskeen, 27 September 2013 - 05:19 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 27 September 2013 - 12:50 AM, said:

A swayback hunchie with 4 MLaser and stacked with 21 DHS would put you around guaranteed heat neutral in tabletop. Even mech3.

On TT that swayback can have up to 6 Mediums (18 heat) with the basic 10 doubles. And that is with a standard 250 Engine and over 16 tons of left over weight! To keep 9 medium lasers heat neutral you need only 18 double sinks. Your Hunchie on TT would be frigid!


General that is because of the Solaris style Cyclic rates. If our weapons vented while our weapons cooled it would be a different story all together. It would be more like Canon for the universe.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 27 September 2013 - 05:30 AM.

[Captain Stiffy]

I have a Stalker with 44 SHS on it. It's pretty damn good.

[Joseph Mallan]

Firing what? With that many sinks you should be cool carrying 6 PPCs! I they would fit.

[Captain Stiffy]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 September 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

Firing what? With that many sinks you should be cool carrying 6 PPCs! I they would fit.

I don't have it put together anymore so I can't say what I ended with (though I do still have the non-endo SHS 5s chassis) but the premise is that you don't use endo or DHS and put LASAR GUNZ on it and FILL the mech with SHS otherwise.

[Captain Stiffy]

So here's the basics;
STK-5S
XL 295 (56.2 BASE)
45 SHS
2 MPL
4 ML
2 AMS (2)

Alpha constantly or just fire constantly, however you like to do it

Edited by Captain Stiffy, 27 September 2013 - 07:05 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

So many heat sinks so few weapons

[Captain Stiffy]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 September 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

So many heat sinks so few weapons

You don't need many weapons. You need effective weapons. Many weapons are often not effective because they cannot all be used due to heat issues which results in wasted tonnage.

Arguably you could get close to this with DHS anyway, but you don't have to.

[Kyrie]

Why not just eliminate SHS entirely?

[MustrumRidcully]

Captain Stiffy, on 27 September 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

You don't need many weapons. You need effective weapons. Many weapons are often not effective because they cannot all be used due to heat issues which results in wasted tonnage.

Arguably you could get close to this with DHS anyway, but you don't have to.

But this isn't effective.

The goal is to kill the enemy, not to fire for 10 minutes non-stop. Those Quad PPC Stalkers where very hot - 6-9 seconds to shutdown, IIRC, but that translated to 120 to 160 damage (and it's only a concern in the first place if you don't go back to cover). That's enough to destroy a heavy mech or cripple an Atlas. A 4 ML laser build? Laughable, it's dead before its sustainability ever comes into play.

The deal with the table top game was that if you went too hot, you didn't deal deadly amount of damages before you shut down. In MW:O, you do. And so the whole game turns into what is basically a race between DPS vs hit points and HPS vs heat capacity, and the optimization problem becomes a relatively shallow problem. There is no real trade-off to consider between sustainability and burst damage potential. You go for burst, that's it.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 27 September 2013 - 07:46 AM.

[Captain Stiffy]

Kyrie, on 27 September 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

Why not just eliminate SHS entirely?

If you could know the number of times this has been suggested the number would blow your mind.

MustrumRidcully, on 27 September 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

But this isn't effective.

The goal is to kill the enemy, not to fire for 10 minutes non-stop. Those Quad PPC Stalkers where very hot - 6-9 seconds to shutdown, IIRC, but that translated to 120 to 160. That's enough to destroy a heavy mech or cripple an Atlas.

The deal with the table top game was that if you went too hot, you didn't deal deadly amount of damages before you shut down. In MW:O, you do. And so the whole game turns into what is basically a race between DPS vs hit points and HPS vs heat capacity, and the optimization problem becomes a relatively shallow problem. There is no real trade-off to consider between sustainability and burst damage potential. You go for burst, that's it.

There's more to the game than standing still and alpha striking.

[Joseph Mallan]

Captain Stiffy, on 27 September 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

You don't need many weapons. You need effective weapons. Many weapons are often not effective because they cannot all be used due to heat issues which results in wasted tonnage.

Arguably you could get close to this with DHS anyway, but you don't have to.

Oh I agree, but 22 double sinks for roughly 20 heat output... just wrong man You practically have a Commando's weight in sinks for a PPCs tonnage of weapons! It just ain't right.

[MustrumRidcully]

Captain Stiffy, on 27 September 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

There's more to the game than standing still and alpha striking.

There is also moving and alpha striking.
And torso twisting and alpha striking.

Burst damage wins, because your burst lasts too long.