187 replies to this topic

[Mcchuggernaut]

I have almost never seen anyone using them. What's wrong with them? Do they need some kind of buff? What are their advantages/disadvantages over other ballistic weapons? It seems to me that since they are so close range specialized that they should either do more damage per projectile (thereby making up for the short range and spread by being very deadly up close) or fire faster than the other longer ranged heavy hitters like the AC20. Do I just not know what I'm talking about or am I right?

Edit: Do they crit internals more often like machine guns?

Edited by Mcchuggernaut, 27 September 2013 - 01:04 PM.

[Khobai]

There are no advantages to it really. Its worse than an AC/10. And much worse than two AC/5s.

Even the the one thing LB10Xs are supposed to be good at, which is getting critical hits, its considerably worse at doing than an AC/10.

[General Taskeen]

The question is why use an LB-X in MW3, MW4, MW:LL - Because they are powerful and awesome.

In MWO? Meh. No Range Advantage, No Bonus pellet damage (other games did upwards of up to 1.4 Damage per Pellet, an LB 20-X did 24 total damage for example in MW4), sometimes slower firing in those games like MW:LL (huge burst damage, slow firing).

That about sums it up.

Edited by General Taskeen, 27 September 2013 - 01:15 PM.

[Charons Little Helper]

Yes - they do crit internals like machine guns - a slightly better % chance I believe.

They also have less heat than an AC10 - making them one of the most heat efficient weapons in the game (not to mention 1 less ton/slot).

And of course they aren't as good as 2 AC5s - 2 AC5s weigh 5 more tons and take up more space and an extra hardpoint.

LBXs aren't amazing - but they're very viable for brawlers. I keep 2 on my atlas - and it's the only mech I've broken 1000 damage with.

[Lostdragon]

They do have a higher crit rate. The problem is critting is pretty pointless. Once armor is gone that section is seconds away from being blown off completely, which any of the other ACs are better at since they do pinpoint damage.

In the lore the LBX could fire the scatter ammunition we have or it could use a slug similar to an AC10. Considering the weight, cost, and situational utility most any other AC is a better choice. The LBX can be fun, especially on a CTF with two, but it needs a buff of some sort to make it really competitive with other weapons. Giving it slugs that require a separate ammo type would make it a viable choice.

[FireSlade]

The LB10-X AC is one of those niche weapons in MWO. In lore and TT you had the option to use slug/cluster rounds (think deer slug or buck shot for shotguns); but because of the LBX being a better, though costly, version of the ACs this would have killed the AC10 so they decided to make it a cluster round only with each pellet only doing one damage. Players tend to treat it as a primary damage dealer (mostly because it does 10 damage and the weight) and do rather poorly with it. In reality if you treat it as a close range brawling weapon and aim for areas that have exposed armor then it really shines. This is why you will find people that hate it and others that love it. It uses the same mechanic for critical damage as machine guns (different numbers though) where each pellet has a chance to crit and there are 10 pellets. Crit damage is extra damage that can be applied to the internal structure or weapons, ammo, and equipment that is installed in each location. Another feature is that it has the second highest cockpit shake for ballistic weapons, topped only by the AC20. I happen to love the weapon and run 2 of them on my Ilya Muromets and end up ripping enemies apart; but I do not rush in blindly expecting to not be torn apart either. So all I can say is try it out for yourself and see how you like it.

[Mcchuggernaut]

So I guess I was right about what I thought, or at least people agree. I think it needs some attention from the devs. I would like to see it do the most damage of all ballistics at very close range. That would make it useful, role-specific(close-in brawling only), and do what a shotgun is supposed to do. I don't think it could be abused because most maps are so open anyway, and all you would have to do to even the odds against someone using them is to back up while firing. Or just stay out of range if you see someone running them.

Edited by Mcchuggernaut, 27 September 2013 - 01:27 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Good question - when you find a stunning reason - please tell me....

the only target worth shooting at are lights - better chance to hit them and assaults - because there internal hp will not be removed when you hit it with a LBX...

LBX vs armor is worth nothing....you can even spend 20 or 30 shots vs a hunchback at medium to short ranges and hardly be able to break its armor.

[Rathmere]

I've always found that having one, as a general rule, isn't the best option over a AC10. However having two is fracking awesome! One crit slot less allows you to put in two in a torso, roughly the same effective range as an AC20, same damage and a higher rate of fire. Plus it's fun watching lights panic when you nail them.

[Khobai]

Quote

They do have a higher crit rate.

Correct they have a higher crit rate. But they are still much worse at critting than an AC/10.

The reason is because all items have 10 health. When an AC/10 crits, it does 10 damage to a random item, and destroys it instantly. When an LB10X crits, each pellet does 2 damage to a random item, but since every pellet can hit a different item randomly, theres no guarantee of destroying any items.

Quote

The problem is critting is pretty pointless.

Yes and no. There are currently only five weapons that are effective at critting. The AC/10, ERPPC, PPC, Gauss, and AC/20. Because all of these weapons do 10+ damage to the same location, which means they automatically destroy at least one item whenever they get a crit on internals. Since the AC/10 fires the fastest of all these weapons, its currently the best crit-seeking weapon in the game.

Edited by Khobai, 27 September 2013 - 01:47 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

And, if you're smart/efficient at building your mechs, you'll pad yourself with crit soakers (ie, lots of items in each section to help prevent getting cored as quickly).

[Khobai]

Quote

And, if you're smart/efficient at building your mechs, you'll pad yourself with crit soakers (ie, lots of items in each section to help prevent getting cored as quickly).

Yep and that would make the LB10X even worse, because the more items you have in a location, the less effective the LB10x is at critting. Where the AC/10 still has a chance of taking out the good items in a location.

[Son of the Flood]

As others have said the spread is a lot tighter on the "buckshot" than it was back in the day. Check out this post/video by MadPanda from a couple of days ago, looks like an effective weapon to me (especially if you group a couple together). http://mwomercs.com/...32#entry2785532

[Mcchuggernaut]

Son of the Flood, on 27 September 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...32#entry2785532

Very interesting watch, sir. It does after all seem to have two important advantages: almost no heat, and no linked heat penalty. I wonder what would happen if I crammed 4 of them on a mech somehow...

[Lostdragon]

Mcchuggernaut, on 27 September 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

Very interesting watch, sir. It does after all seem to have two important advantages: almost no heat, and no linked heat penalty. I wonder what would happen if I crammed 4 of them on a mech somehow...

Well that would hurt but there are no mechs that have enough tonnage and ballistic hardpoints for this I am afraid.

[Lostdragon]

Khobai, on 27 September 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

Correct they have a higher crit rate. But they are still much worse at critting than an AC/10.

The reason is because all items have 10 health. When an AC/10 crits, it does 10 damage to a random item, and destroys it instantly. When an LB10X crits, each pellet does 2 damage to a random item, but since every pellet can hit a different item randomly, theres no guarantee of destroying any items.



Yes and no. There are currently only five weapons that are effective at critting. The AC/10, ERPPC, PPC, Gauss, and AC/20. Because all of these weapons do 10+ damage to the same location, which means they automatically destroy at least one item whenever they get a crit on internals. Since the AC/10 fires the fastest of all these weapons, its currently the best crit-seeking weapon in the game.

Yeah, I get that but my point was by the time you are through armor destroying one item does not matter much because if you are a good shot your next salvo is probably going to destroy the whole section and everything in it. So you might deny someone one shot, maybe. If it took longer to destroy structure the value of crits would go up. Crits also don't work against engines or actuators. If they did that would also make them much more desirable.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Lostdragon, on 27 September 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

Well that would hurt but there are no mechs that have enough tonnage and ballistic hardpoints for this I am afraid.

Some day, there will be Diashi....A man can dream, right?

[Throe]

Mcchuggernaut, on 27 September 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

So I guess I was right about what I thought, or at least people agree. I think it needs some attention from the devs. I would like to see it do the most damage of all ballistics at very close range.

I think the important think to take away from a comparison between an LB10X AC and a shotgun is that both are more effective against UNARMORED targets. For an ARMORED target, a single high power round is always going to perform better than 10 separate pellets with the same total mass. I'd say: working as intended. LB10X does more damage to an target without armor. LB10X AC also already performs at a reduced effectiveness at long range due to the spread. With other ballistic weapons at long range, if you hit at all, you do the same amount of damage regardless of range.

[Vassago Rain]

It is a very bad weapon at long range, and up close. It's very good for pounding people at medium range, because you can fire so many bullets, and they'll take damage all over, which is very annoying to wade through.

It still doesn't do any real damage.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Throet, on 27 September 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

I think the important think to take away from a comparison between an LB10X AC and a shotgun is that both are more effective against UNARMORED targets. For an ARMORED target, a single high power round is always going to perform better than 10 separate pellets with the same total mass.

Problem is, right now critting internals doesn't mean squat. As someone stated above, maybe you take out a weapon or two. MAYBE you deny someone one shot. Most battles don't come down to one shot either way, cause most of the time someone is dead seconds after their armor is stripped from an engine-containing torso. If it isn't engine-containing, it usually just gets blown off the next hit or two and ALL the weapons in the arm/leg/side torso are then gone, making crits pretty much amount to a hill of beans right now. To me it seems more like a realism mechanic (parts of your mech breaking and warnings about it as you are hit, making it feel more like piloting a huge dying war machine.) than a viable gameplay mechanic, which is why this weapon is very seldom used, because what it supposedly does well does nothing to help you win. The powerful rocking mechanic is ok, but it fires slow enough that it isn't constant, and the enemy can still shoot back very well, (unless you chain-fire 3, which gives you a host of other problems and can only be done by 1 mech right now anyway.) so that also means squat. It simply needs some work. In prior Mechwarrior games, this weapon's big brother did the highest damage of any conventional weapon (we aren't counting stuff like the Long Tom) but had miserable range. You could counter someone using it easily with long range weapons or just backing up. IF however they got to you by using cover or flanking, you were dead. The two gameplay types balanced each other and both types of weapons got used (long and short range), unlike now where some weapons like this one, pulse lasers, and so on just almost never get use.

My thoughts on the whole weapon balance hoopla are these: Every weapon should excel at something USEFUL, and have drawbacks in other aspects. Long range weapons should be great at long range, but short range weapons should own them hard at short range. Walking up to someone with the big close range shotgun when you are packing long range autocannons should result in your death. When it doesn't work that way, and weapons are seeing almost no use in the game, then they need a buff, end of story. The game won't be nearly as fun with everybody packing just a few weapons that beat everything else. Sorry for the rant, lol.