230 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

Duncan Jr Fischer, on 28 September 2013 - 03:44 AM, said:

I do not agree in full with the proposed changes. I think the current LRMs implementation is not the best, but quite good and pretty balanced. The efficiency of LRMs overall in battle is just about what they are in TT. It's a support weapon.

I've never read anything about LRM's only being a support weapon. Could you explain why you think that? Otherwise i'd have to assume that it's just a misguided opinion, like players who believe MG's are only anti-infantry weapons.

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It was never as viable weapon than lasers or ACs or anything.

Why was it not viable?

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But it's a good support weapon. In TT they have a very precise distance at which they are super-effective, and one step closer they stop doing damage, one step further they are less accurate.

Didn't all weapons have advantages/disadvantages at different ranges? The gauss rifle and PPC had minimum ranges. Are they support weapons?

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I can say I'm content with their current state.

Self-guided fire-and-forget LRMs would be a HELL, as they were in MW3.

How would they be any different for the target than the way they are now?

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They should be less accurate, that's for sure.
Killing indirect fire is also a mistake. Binding it to terrible TAG or NARC in their current state is a torture to everyone.
I say again, imo LRMs now are in a fairly good state. Better not to touch what is good enough - it may get worse.

I think TAG is fine now, but NARC needs some improvement. But i think LRM's are nowhere near good right now. My wife has been grinding Catapults recently and thinks they are the worst mechs in the game and LRM's are a joke.
I have to say i agree with her

[Wispsy]

Wolfways, on 28 September 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

Why was it not viable?

Travel time. Removing travel time would make it exactly the same as acs or lasers, therefore making it or them pointless weapons. Keeping it means that it will never be viable in competitive play, however I see quite a number of LRM users do well in pugs right now. It has always been my opinion that the Catapult is one of the worst LRM mechs, but that is just me.

[Wolfways]

Wispsy, on 28 September 2013 - 03:53 AM, said:

There was a time when you could literally melt an Atlas in under 5 seconds with LRMs. Guess what, nobody used them competitively even then. LRMs are fine in pugs right now, I see them do well if played well and omg are they annoying to me. However, they will never be used in truly competitive play. It is just not possible to make it happen. Honestly, it really cannot be done. They have travel time. This means they will be avoided by expert players almost every single time no matter how much you buff them. No joke, the changes you suggest would indeed make them exceedingly strong in pugs, but people would still not use them competitively. I am not sure how else to put this really...unless you turn them into teleporting missiles which would be completely pointless then they are never going to be competitive viable. If for some reason they ever do become, they will be so strong that they are the only weapon ever used by any1 in any game.

I remember when LRM's were too strong, especially the two days when they dropped vertically and practically everyone and their mother was using them. But since then they've been nerfed over and over and now they just aren't worth using.
I never see LRM mechs do well in matches.
You say they're annoying. Is that the same way getting hit by an AC20 is annoying, or because indirect fire forces you to stay near cover?
Also, i get the impression that you feel people playing in pugs aren't competitive. I play in pugs all the time and i'm competitive, and i want to be able to do equally well with any weapon i choose, as long as i use it correctly, but the only thing using LRM's does is drastically drop my damage amount in a match...the same way using AC's drastically increases it.
But if you mean 12man premades (which i assume you do) still won't use it then what difference would it make to them?

Wispsy, on 28 September 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

Travel time. Removing travel time would make it exactly the same as acs or lasers, therefore making it or them pointless weapons. Keeping it means that it will never be viable in competitive play, however I see quite a number of LRM users do well in pugs right now. It has always been my opinion that the Catapult is one of the worst LRM mechs, but that is just me.

I was asking why LRM's were not viable in TT.
But if travel time is the problem in MWO why not speed them up, and remove the incoming missiles warning? It's not like they do a huge amount of damage.

Edited by Wolfways, 28 September 2013 - 04:38 AM.

[Wispsy]

Wolfways, on 28 September 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

I remember when LRM's were too strong, especially the two days when they dropped vertically and practically everyone and their mother was using them. But since then they've been nerfed over and over and now they just aren't worth using.
I never see LRM mechs do well in matches.
You say they're annoying. Is that the same way getting hit by an AC20 is annoying, or because indirect fire forces you to stay near cover?
Also, i get the impression that you feel people playing in pugs aren't competitive. I play in pugs all the time and i'm competitive, and i want to be able to do equally well with any weapon i choose, as long as i use it correctly, but the only thing using LRM's does is drastically drop my damage amount in a match...the same way using AC's drastically increases it.
But if you mean 12man premades (which i assume you do) still won't use it then what difference would it make to them?


I was asking why LRM's were not viable in TT.

You need a different playstyle to use LRMs correctly compared to ACs. I see many do very well, and I play with and against far more skilled players then you. I play pugs all the time and they are in no way shape or form anything close to resembling games on a competitive level.

Of course I mean competitive as in 12 v 12 games of tournament standard. In your original post you pointed at the halfhearted attempt at a tournament they had at the launch event. In that kind of setting, they will never be viable. However, if you buff them now they will be op in pugs. Their damage is good and keeping a lock is something of a skill in itself. If you work together with them they are even stronger. However you get to 12 people playing to absolutely win and take as little damage as possible and they will never work. Yes I also find that getting hit by an AC20 is annoying. Seriously missiles bug the hell out of me in games and are way too often the cause of my death, not necessarily always getting the killing blows, but tearing up my armour and making me go into bad situations. They ruin my chances of catching people out of position and quickly soloing them down and even running at 150kph still find ways to hit me. If there are 2 lrmboats in different positions I literally cannot engage until they are distracted by somebody else or one of them is going to end up hitting me and they do do surprising damage...

Of course sometimes you get the occasional guy with lrms on his cata standing 900m back waiting for his team to spot targets until you run up to his face and kill him before he does any damage...they do not do so well but it is not exactly the weapon.

Edited by Wispsy, 28 September 2013 - 04:47 AM.

[Wolfways]

Wispsy, on 28 September 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

You need a different playstyle to use LRMs correctly compared to ACs. I see many do very well, and I play with and against far more skilled players then you. I play pugs all the time and they are in no way shape or form anything close to resembling games on a competitive level.

Do you mean you play with better players than i do, or players that are better than me?

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Of course I mean competitive as in 12 v 12 games of tournament standard. In your original post you pointed at the halfhearted attempt at a tournament they had at the launch event. In that kind of setting, they will never be viable. However, if you buff them now they will be op in pugs. Their damage is good and keeping a lock is something of a skill in itself. If you work together with them they are even stronger. However you get to 12 people playing to absolutely win and take as little damage as possible and they will never work.

That's fine, i'm not asking that anyone be forced to use them. I'm simply asking that they be made worth using.
I stopped playing for a while and i thought LRM's were bad then (That's not why i stopped playing ) and when i came back i was looking at the weapon stats on Smurfy and i couldn't believe that the damage had been reduced from 1.8 to 1.1.

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Yes I also find that getting hit by an AC20 is annoying. Seriously missiles bug the hell out of me in games and are way too often the cause of my death, not necessarily always getting the killing blows, but tearing up my armour and making me go into bad situations. They ruin my chances of catching people out of position and quickly soloing them down and even running at 150kph still find ways to hit me. If there are 2 lrmboats in different positions I literally cannot engage until they are distracted by somebody else or one of them is going to end up hitting me and they do do surprising damage...

So you hate getting hit by LRM's because they damage your mech? Isn't that the same as saying you hate getting hit by SRM's, or LB10X? Or any other weapon for that matter?
Personally i find it almost impossible to be killed by LRM's and it's not difficult to avoid being hit by them much, unless they are being fired direct at fairly close range but in that case i can shoot the {Scrap} out of the enemy mech while he's trying to keep a lock on me and can't torso twist.
I hate to say it but what you just said sounds like the players in the BF series who constantly complain about snipers because they get shot before the sniper is within their shorter weapon range and they think that's unfair, until snipers are nerfed into being almost useless.
I'd prefer it if all weapon systems were equally viable.

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Of course sometimes you get the occasional guy with lrms on his cata standing 900m back waiting for his team to spot targets until you run up to his face and kill him before he does any damage...they do not do so well but it is not exactly the weapon.

Everyone has to learn the hard way

Edited by Wolfways, 28 September 2013 - 05:17 AM.

[Wispsy]

Wolfways, on 28 September 2013 - 05:16 AM, said:

Do you mean you play with better players than i do, or players that are better than me?

Both


I would rather that the enemy team has a mech with lbxs and srms instead of lrms, those 2 weapons are way weaker then lrms. Yes I hate getting hit by lrms because they damage my mech, and the fact that they do is why they are viable...just like i hate everything that damages my mech...

As I said they require a different skillset to use, I can actually use lrms very effectively myself...however if you are facing people who stand literally stand behind a rock and pray somebody gets them good targets well ofc you are not going to die to them unless he has another friend doing the same thing and somebody spotting who planned to spot.

They are worth using, use them right. I do not really get what you are trying to pin on me, why are you saying I am complaining about snipers huh? I am telling you they are viable weapons and you say I am a noob from bf who complains that snipers outrange short range people. I tell you some useful things that lrms can do and all of a sudden I am the one complaining? I think you are being a hypocrite those short range people annoyed at snipers clearly do not understand how the game works therefore blame "broken" weapons...same for you . In pugs they work fine, however if i drop in a competitive match obviously they do not get a chance to shoot anybody because why the hell would you ever let the enemy see you for more then 0.4 seconds at a time?

[Doc Andrews]

Frankly, people who think that LRM's are weak don't know how to use them in an optimal fashion. Usually that means they are using them without TAG.

TAG allows you to target and core mechs, even mechs under an ECM bubble. It lets you take full control the re-lock mechanism, curving missiles almost horizontally on re-acquisition .Combined with Artemis, the tracking is great, even on lights.

All of these things need to be practiced. You want 20+ hours of gameplay per LRM mech you plan to use, in order to master the angles. With your typical LRM stalker, you can average around 400 per game with a good KDR.

In organized 12 man play, it's a different story. You need to be much more highly skilled, and take advantage of every mistake. Anyone over 250m from cover needs to be punished. You can't rely on spotters. It's nice to have, but very few have the skill and livability. Consider yourself on your own. Your goal is one full kill and some damage on at least one other mech.

[Dirkdaring]

Several of the competition matches I watched on launch day not a single person had LRMs.

Edited by Dirkdaring, 28 September 2013 - 05:54 AM.

[Prezimonto]

Fixing ECM should be the number one priority. It SHOULD NOT hard counter 1/3 of the game's weapons against your WHOLE team for 1.5 tons, no risk, and no skill.

I would actually like to see LRM's damage increase but the same mech hardpoint spread of SSRM's follow through... but with blocks of 5 LRM's. So an LRM 20 will have 4 blocks of 5 missiles diving for random hard points. Each missile doing 1.5 to 2.0 damage (should be balanced) if it hits. This will spread LRM damage across a mech, so they don't core assaults in 3 volleys. it would give a reason for every size LRM to be useful (decent damage) and even with AMS and cover and quick movement spreading or killing damage from LRM volleys if a few hit it might be meaningful.

Edited by Prezimonto, 28 September 2013 - 05:49 AM.

[Kaijin]

Wispsy, on 28 September 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

even running at 150kph still find ways to hit me.

Considering such missiles should be traveling at 400kph at a minimum, they should be catching you.

A little background for the peanut gallery. Wispsy is an outstanding light pilot and I am profoundly thankful to be serving the same House. Respect. But too, since closed beta Wispsy been a persistent and outspoken opponent of LRMs being as effective as other weapon types. I have argued against this view for just as long.

There was a time in closed beta when LRMs were more effective than other weapon types. They were fast, maneuverable, they hit without warning, and because all guided missiles at the time seemed programmed to hit the CT, they'd kill a mech very quickly. This generated a lot of justifiable hate for the weapon. Instead of fixing the CT-seeking behavior of the weapon (only recently fixed for SSRMs), which might have been all that was needed, PGI nerfed LRMs into irrelevance by adding a missile warning which goes off as soon as locked missiles leave the launcher, slowed the LRMs down to a crawl, and drastically reduced their maneuverability. Still, some players got killed by LRMs (the horror), so the damage was dropped from 1.8 per missile to 1.1

Often heard is that 1 point of damage per missile is what it should be, as that's the TT value. But armor was doubled from TT value, so MWO LRM damage is half what it would be in TT. Why was armor doubled? Because unlike TT with all weapon type hits being determined randomly, energy weapons, ballistic weapons, and SRMs can be aimed in MWO, and with perfect convergence from the first two, unmodified armor values meant mechs died in two or three shots. So. Armor is doubled. LRM damage should be doubled too. And now that PGI has figured out how to randomize SSRM hits, they should be able to do it for LRMs too.

If LRMs are to remain at 1.1 damage per missile, and warn their target that they're slowly making their way across the field, then the launchers shouldn't weigh as much as they do, take up as many crit locations, and cost as much heat, or c-bills.

Edited by Kaijin, 28 September 2013 - 06:22 AM.

[Charons Little Helper]

While I do agree LRMs need a slight speed buff (maybe 10-20%) - sometimes the missile warning is the best part about them. Frankly - in general you need at least 20-25 LRMs to make them worth firing as otherwise AMS will shred your volley. However, once you do a couple of solid 30-40 missile volleys (or more - I used to have a stalker which fired 80 at a time) - you can in some ways control the battlefield with an LRM 5.

If you aim the LRM 5 at someone - even someone out at 900meters who you know you won't hit - they'll break for cover. This allows you to stop mech rushes. First fire an LRM 5 at one of them. Once they break for cover - switch targets and start making it rain.

LRMs would be awesome if ECM were nerfed some. (unlike the awesome - which isn't awesome at all )

[Wolfways]

Wispsy, on 28 September 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

Both

lol you have no idea how good, or bad a player i am. Unless you've been watching me when we're in the same matches...

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I would rather that the enemy team has a mech with lbxs and srms instead of lrms, those 2 weapons are way weaker then lrms.

How are they weaker? The LB10X does less damage (on a pellet/missile basis), but extra crit damage and you can't move behind cover to avoid it after it is fired at you. SRM's do almost twice the damage of LRM's and you have can't move into cover to avoid it after they are fire at you.

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Yes I hate getting hit by lrms because they damage my mech, and the fact that they do is why they are viable...just like i hate everything that damages my mech...

As I said they require a different skillset to use, I can actually use lrms very effectively myself...however if you are facing people who stand literally stand behind a rock and pray somebody gets them good targets well ofc you are not going to die to them unless he has another friend doing the same thing and somebody spotting who planned to spot.

They are worth using, use them right. I do not really get what you are trying to pin on me, why are you saying I am complaining about snipers huh? I am telling you they are viable weapons and you say I am a noob from bf who complains that snipers outrange short range people. I tell you some useful things that lrms can do and all of a sudden I am the one complaining? I think you are being a hypocrite those short range people annoyed at snipers clearly do not understand how the game works therefore blame "broken" weapons...same for you . In pugs they work fine, however if i drop in a competitive match obviously they do not get a chance to shoot anybody because why the hell would you ever let the enemy see you for more then 0.4 seconds at a time?

What i meant by the BF sniper comment was that the way you were saying you hate being damaged by any weapon sounds the same as the BF players who complain about sniper rifles no matter how much they were nerfed. It just always sounded like they were more interested in having them removed from the game than making them balanced.
I never said you were complaining.

If LRM's seem fine to you then i'm happy you enjoy using them.
I don't remember you saying how they should be used though, other than don't sit at the back and don't use them in 12mans.

[Wolfways]

Doc Andrews, on 28 September 2013 - 05:37 AM, said:

Frankly, people who think that LRM's are weak don't know how to use them in an optimal fashion. Usually that means they are using them without TAG.

TAG allows you to target and core mechs, even mechs under an ECM bubble. It lets you take full control the re-lock mechanism, curving missiles almost horizontally on re-acquisition .Combined with Artemis, the tracking is great, even on lights.

All of these things need to be practiced. You want 20+ hours of gameplay per LRM mech you plan to use, in order to master the angles. With your typical LRM stalker, you can average around 400 per game with a good KDR.

In organized 12 man play, it's a different story. You need to be much more highly skilled, and take advantage of every mistake. Anyone over 250m from cover needs to be punished. You can't rely on spotters. It's nice to have, but very few have the skill and livability. Consider yourself on your own. Your goal is one full kill and some damage on at least one other mech.

So to use LRM's effectively you need TAG and Artemis? So LRM's are weak then if you need those to make them viable.
I've been using LRM's, on and off, since CB and i've seen them overpowered and underpowered, and right now they are definitely underpowered.
400 a match? That's bad... In my Jagermech an average match is 500-800 damage. A good match is around 1000 damage.

Edited by Wolfways, 28 September 2013 - 06:10 AM.

[Wolfways]

Kaijin, on 28 September 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

A little background for the peanut gallery. Wispsy is an outstanding light pilot and I am profoundly thankful to be serving the same House. Respect. But too, since closed beta Wispsy been a persistent and outspoken opponent of LRMs being as effective as other weapon types. I have argued against this view for just as long.

That's what i meant by the BF sniper reference, but you put it better than i did. I was trying not to sound offensive (and obviously failing ) saying that some people want to see a weapon nerfed just because.

[Wispsy]

Kaijin, on 28 September 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

Considering such missiles should be traveling at 400kph at a minimum, they should be catching you.

since closed beta Wispsy been a persistent and outspoken opponent of LRMs being as effective as other weapon types. I have argued against this view for just as long.

I am ok with them hitting me, I think they are fine, I am saying that they do, whereas others seem to argue they do not. I am not against LRMs being as effective as other weapons, currently I think they are. What I am against is really dumb people who cannot use them screaming for buffs until they can break 400 damage every match with them just by sitting in the back pressing r and holding down 1(most matches I see will have no more then 3 people break 400 damage a game and that is usually when they massively over perform compared to the rest of the players. Every time this happens the skilled LRM users literally dominate any pug game. If they work together then it literally comes down to who has the most LRMs and unlike other weaponry, op LRMs means there is no way you can win and both teams spend 14 minutes hiding behind the biggest hill near their base they can find and if you spawn on the wrong side of the map it is instant lose.

Right now I see LRM users doing absolutely fine and from my own experience I know they can be used to great affect, not just in dealing lots of damage but in controlling the field in general. Using LRMs is not a simple "see red square, press mouse = win". I am sorry if that is what you want them to be, but they are much more fun being the more tactical weapon that requires skill yet gets results.

Wolfways, on 28 September 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

lol you have no idea how good, or bad a player i am. Unless you've been watching me when we're in the same matches...


How are they weaker? The LB10X does less damage (on a pellet/missile basis), but extra crit damage and you can't move behind cover to avoid it after it is fired at you. SRM's do almost twice the damage of LRM's and you have can't move into cover to avoid it after they are fire at you.

What i meant by the BF sniper comment was that the way you were saying you hate being damaged by any weapon sounds the same as the BF players who complain about sniper rifles no matter how much they were nerfed. It just always sounded like they were more interested in having them removed from the game than making them balanced.
I never said you were complaining.

If LRM's seem fine to you then i'm happy you enjoy using them.
I don't remember you saying how they should be used though, other than don't sit at the back and don't use them in 12mans.

It makes no difference I do not need to see you play, I know how good I am and you are not there. You clearly do not play at the same kind of Elo as I do else you would see people capable of using LRMs effectively.

It annoys me when anything does damage to my mech...what kind of logic is this? why would I not be upset at something damaging my mech? The more I get damaged the more likely I am to die... Any weapon can damage my mech, LRMs and Large Lasers are probably the 2 most annoying weapons to right against in my book. LBX and SRM are pretty much useless in my opinion, but I guess I am biased being a light and a sniper most of the time, those 2 weapons just do not affect me in either position.

You can use them in 12mans, I have run 2spotters+full lrmboat teams before and won repeatedly. I am saying you cannot use them competitively, because people just will not sit around to get hit and every sniper on the map needs less then half a second to shoot.

I am not going to go into yet another massive post about how to use LRMs properly, I have done this like 3 times in the past and most people just do not listen and just flame away without ever reading it. Waste of my time especially with the amount of maps, especially large ones with so many different positions, we have now that I would have to go through.

Wolfways, on 28 September 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

That's what i meant by the BF sniper reference, but you put it better than i did. I was trying not to sound offensive (and obviously failing ) saying that some people want to see a weapon nerfed just because.

Do not want it nerfed....just it does not need to be buffed.

[Wispsy]

Wolfways, on 28 September 2013 - 06:01 AM, said:

So to use LRM's effectively you need TAG and Artemis? So LRM's are weak then if you need those to make them viable.
I've been using LRM's, on and off, since CB and i've seen them overpowered and underpowered, and right now they are definitely underpowered.
400 a match? That's bad... In my Jagermech an average match is 500-800 damage. A good match is around 1000 damage.

Tag and Artemis have no other use except in conjunction with lrms. If you make LRMs viable without them then adding them on would make them sickeningly overpowered...so they are balanced with tag and artemis in mind. If you are not using a 1ton laser that decreases lockon time, increases tracking and allows you to lock on to targets under ECM cover then you deserve sub 100 dmg a game...

[Kaijin]

Wispsy, on 28 September 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

Using LRMs is not a simple "see red square, press mouse = win". I am sorry if that is what you want them to be,

Edited by Kaijin, 28 September 2013 - 06:45 AM.

[Wolfways]

Wispsy, on 28 September 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

I am ok with them hitting me, I think they are fine, I am saying that they do, whereas others seem to argue they do not. I am not against LRMs being as effective as other weapons, currently I think they are. What I am against is really dumb people who cannot use them screaming for buffs until they can break 400 damage every match with them just by sitting in the back pressing r and holding down 1

But my post is about reducing their effectiveness in indirect fire and increasing it in direct fire, the opposite of sitting at the back pressing 1.

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(most matches I see will have no more then 3 people break 400 damage a game and that is usually when they massively over perform compared to the rest of the players. Every time this happens the skilled LRM users literally dominate any pug game. If they work together then it literally comes down to who has the most LRMs and unlike other weaponry, op LRMs means there is no way you can win and both teams spend 14 minutes hiding behind the biggest hill near their base they can find and if you spawn on the wrong side of the map it is instant lose.

This is what i don't understand. Why do you seem to think you need to hide behind a hill from LRM's and not other weapons, even though you use cover to avoid being hit by any weapon?
Why are LRM's such a "scary" weapon?

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Right now I see LRM users doing absolutely fine and from my own experience I know they can be used to great affect, not just in dealing lots of damage but in controlling the field in general. Using LRMs is not a simple "see red square, press mouse = win". I am sorry if that is what you want them to be, but they are much more fun being the more tactical weapon that requires skill yet gets results.

I don't mind it being a weapon that requires more skill. Imo it has always required more skill than aim>fire>hide weapons. But i would like to get similar results with LRM's that i do with...well lasers (I was going to say any other weapon but AC's are just OP atm) but i rarely see anyone do well with LRM's.

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[size=4]

It makes no difference I do not need to see you play, I know how good I am and you are not there. You clearly do not play at the same kind of Elo as I do else you would see people capable of using LRMs effectively.

Well i have no idea how ELO is supposed to work, and tbh i don't think it works as i nearly always have one of the highest match scores and damage done in every match, and it has been that way for a long time.
But if our ELO score is so different why do i see you in my pug matches?

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It annoys me when anything does damage to my mech...what kind of logic is this? why would I not be upset at something damaging my mech? The more I get damaged the more likely I am to die... Any weapon can damage my mech, LRMs and Large Lasers are probably the 2 most annoying weapons to right against in my book. LBX and SRM are pretty much useless in my opinion, but I guess I am biased being a light and a sniper most of the time, those 2 weapons just do not affect me in either position.

You can use them in 12mans, I have run 2spotters+full lrmboat teams before and won repeatedly. I am saying you cannot use them competitively, because people just will not sit around to get hit and every sniper on the map needs less then half a second to shoot.

Well i may not think competitive means the same as you do, but i use mechs and weapons that i like, not just because they are "the best".

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I am not going to go into yet another massive post about how to use LRMs properly, I have done this like 3 times in the past and most people just do not listen and just flame away without ever reading it. Waste of my time especially with the amount of maps, especially large ones with so many different positions, we have now that I would have to go through.

I'd actually be very interested in learning from someone who is better with LRM's than i am. One of the mechs i was looking forward to was the Mad Dog (2xLRM20, 2xLPL, 2xMPL). Unfortunately i consider LRM's and pulse lasers the worst weapons in MWO

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Do not want it nerfed....just it does not need to be buffed.

You're entitled to your opinion of course.

Wispsy, on 28 September 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

Tag and Artemis have no other use except in conjunction with lrms. If you make LRMs viable without them then adding them on would make them sickeningly overpowered...so they are balanced with tag and artemis in mind. If you are not using a 1ton laser that decreases lockon time, increases tracking and allows you to lock on to targets under ECM cover then you deserve sub 100 dmg a game...

Isn't that like saying if you want to use a LL and you're not using an ERLL you're doing it wrong?

[Ozric]

Wispsy, on 28 September 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

Tag and Artemis have no other use except in conjunction with lrms. If you make LRMs viable without them then adding them on would make them sickeningly overpowered...so they are balanced with tag and artemis in mind. If you are not using a 1ton laser that decreases lockon time, increases tracking and allows you to lock on to targets under ECM cover then you deserve sub 100 dmg a game...

As crazy as this argument sounds, it is unfortunately the truth (apart from the last bit, which is dumb). Lurms are balanced with Artemis, TAG, BAP and the modules in mind, as well as around a LRM40 (the max no ghost heat alpha). Of course this makes them pretty useless to anyone other than a dedicated LRM boat, but this is by design. So is the strength of the ECM/AMS as LRM counters. Blame the whiny brawlers for not learning spacial awareness, lurm use in 12vs12 is all the evidence you need to judge their true viability.

But don't get me wrong, I have been enjoying my C1 LRM boat again since 12vs12, the mobility really makes a difference and it's nice to have moved away from assault LRM boats somewhat. But the dps is under par, no denying that, and as ever if you run into someone who can deal with lurms they can counter you without needing any extra devices anyway.

I do hope for some LRM love at some point, but I'm not holding my breath. You still see LRM's on the battlefield, and the whinny brawlers are finding other things to whine about, so PGI is unlikely to rock the lurm boat again until something else breaks. Personally I think they could use more range, with decreasing accuracy, to make them really LONG RANGE missiles in the MWO environment where a whole load of weapons currently out range them.

[Wispsy]

Kaijin, on 28 September 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

well if anything i would say that is actually a small amount of hyperbole. Anyway it fit within the context of the paragraph and was not a stand alone argument to be knocked over. Do you want me to simplify it for you? Lrms users often do well in games, they require skill to use, this is good. If they did not they would be op. If you buff them they will be faceroll just like the last times.
This was infact the core argument from the start so definitely not a strawman...taking it so out of context does make it look quite bad though I admit.

Wolfways, on 28 September 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

But my post is about reducing their effectiveness in indirect fire and increasing it in direct fire, the opposite of sitting at the back pressing 1.

That is what tag is for...and artemis...and they work....are you honestly saying that lrms should not be balanced around people having tag when it is a tiny cost for a large increase in all of your and everybody else on your teams lrms when tag is in the game? I mean if you do not balance the game around having tag in place then the moment somebody uses tag those "viable" lrms would become sickeningly op...

Wolfways, on 28 September 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

This is what i don't understand. Why do you seem to think you need to hide behind a hill from LRM's and not other weapons, even though you use cover to avoid being hit by any weapon?
Why are LRM's such a "scary" weapon?

They are a homing weapon with massive range that can still hit people hiding behind terrain. If you make them too strong, if they come from too many angles even if all angles are out of your los they will still hit you and kill you.

Wolfways, on 28 September 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

Well i have no idea how ELO is supposed to work, and tbh i don't think it works as i nearly always have one of the highest match scores and damage done in every match, and it has been that way for a long time.
But if our ELO score is so different why do i see you in my pug matches?

Because when they did the patch and we all spent over an hour trying to find a match with nothing but fails they then removed the mm restrictions so that it matched anybody up with anybody regardless of Elo, note why during the times I saw you I also saw many trial mechs. That being said, Elo still does search a very wide area right now and at certain times of the day especially there are very few high Elo people on so after waiting for long periods of time it puts us in with people who are lower so we can play too.

Wolfways, on 28 September 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

Well i may not think competitive means the same as you do, but i use mechs and weapons that i like, not just because they are "the best".

I'd actually be very interested in learning from someone who is better with LRM's than i am. One of the mechs i was looking forward to was the Mad Dog (2xLRM20, 2xLPL, 2xMPL). Unfortunately i consider LRM's and pulse lasers the worst weapons in MWO

I use whatever I feel like playing in pugs and 12mans, it is just a game and my stats are good enough without padding. Competitive play is tournament level as far as I am aware (basically the definition used by all competitive players in all games I have played).

I do not mind if you want to come poke me in teamspeak sometime I am online and ask questions.

I consider srms and lbx to be the worst weapons in mwo right now. Pulse lasers are not exactly good though.