230 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

Wispsy, on 28 September 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

That is what tag is for...and artemis...and they work....are you honestly saying that lrms should not be balanced around people having tag when it is a tiny cost for a large increase in all of your and everybody else on your teams lrms when tag is in the game? I mean if you do not balance the game around having tag in place then the moment somebody uses tag those "viable" lrms would become sickeningly op...

Well speaking as a C1 pilot (I'm not really, just had it since CB) losing a ML is a huge deal as 4xML's is bad enough for defense. I don't think i should have to replace my limited defense with something to make my main weapons acceptable. But then, i don't consider TAG to be that big a deal, except where ECM is concerned and that shouldn't stop missile lock anyway.

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They are a homing weapon with massive range that can still hit people hiding behind terrain. If you make them too strong, if they come from too many angles even if all angles are out of your los they will still hit you and kill you.

Massive range? There are many weapons with longer range. Or do you mean because they do full damage out to their max range?
I don't see how you get hit behind terrain though, unless it's when HSR decides you were hit just before you moved into cover and you see the damage when you think you're safe. PGI explained that somewhere.

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Because when they did the patch and we all spent over an hour trying to find a match with nothing but fails they then removed the mm restrictions so that it matched anybody up with anybody regardless of Elo, note why during the times I saw you I also saw many trial mechs. That being said, Elo still does search a very wide area right now and at certain times of the day especially there are very few high Elo people on so after waiting for long periods of time it puts us in with people who are lower so we can play too.

I still see trial mechs. No idea why

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I use whatever I feel like playing in pugs and 12mans, it is just a game and my stats are good enough without padding. Competitive play is tournament level as far as I am aware (basically the definition used by all competitive players in all games I have played).

I do not mind if you want to come poke me in teamspeak sometime I am online and ask questions.

I consider srms and lbx to be the worst weapons in mwo right now. Pulse lasers are not exactly good though.

Unfortunately i don't use TS yet (no mic).

[Wolfways]

If anyone is interested there's another LRM discussion going on here: http://mwomercs.com/...-and-lrms-suck/

[Wispsy]

tag is a massive deal...this is the heart of your problem. People get hit by missiles behind cover due to good positioning and teamwork. You still see trial mechs because you are not that high and the range Elo searches is still quite wide. I do not mind if you want to type to me but there is too much for me to type out here, will miss more but would prefer to speak it, will offer advice to anybody who wants to learn, there is an awful lot involved in LRMing properly although most of it is really positioning , but obviously there are a lot of positions on a lot of maps for a lot of different circumstances...

Honestly though the main thing I will say straight off the bat and go no further until it is done is....get tag....does waaaaaaaay more then a single mlas, although ideally you should just switch mechs

[Prezimonto]

At the absolute least the radius on ECM should be brought down to 50m or less. Close enough that once collisions are in you risk damaging each other if you pack more than a few extra mechs into the radius.

[wolf74]

Also don't forget to get every fight of 5missile a new lockon location on the target mech (Aka like streaks got). We don't need a repeat of CT coring a mech in 1 flight of missile from a Stalker or other heavy missile boat. I have spotting commando 2D that I run for missile boat with my group Tag, Narc, ECM, AMS,BAP are all installed in my spotter. I watch many of a mech get totally core with very little of there other armor getting touched & that was just from one LRM Stalker.

[RandomLurker]

There seems to be some confusion in this thread about how LRM's actually work at present. Here's some details I've learned from using them:

-LRMs generally target the upper portion of a mech, with a very large amount of spread. Expect to primary hit the side and CT, followed by the arms, followed by the ground. Yes, a lot of missiles go straight into the ground. Somewhere around 20% vs a stationary target, and going up very very quickly vs a moving target. That's what improved missile tracking from Artemis and TAG are for. They are most definately NOT doing full damage at max range.
-Each missile is treated individually, not in groups of 5 like the TT and MW4 did. They tend to spread out from center shotgun-blast style, with most missiles hitting the center of target.
-TAG and NARC not only maintain a target lock, they improve missile accuracy. This means fewer of them end up in the ground. That's all.
-NARC gets blown off the target mech as soon as any missiles hit it. This means 1 NARC = 1 missile volley hits with 15% more of it's missiles. For this underwhelming ability, you give up 3 tons of launcher, a missile hardpoint, and 1 ton of ammo per 6 shots. NARC is {Scrap}.
-Artemis reduces lock time and increases missile tracking. The first buff is always active, the second buff requires you to have line-of-sight and doesn't work on indirect fire. Missile accuracy goes up to (a rough estimate) 'only' 5-10% of missiles hitting the ground vs a stationary target. Assuming you have LOS.
-LRMs take almost 10 seconds to hit a target 1000m away (guessing at time, not logged in to go test). This is a very, very long time and guaruntees you won't hit the target unless said target is stupid.

All of this is where my suggestions in post #2 came from. Indirect fire gets a tracking penalty; this is a substantial damage debuff. Artemis extends missile flight range; with the line-of-sight limitation, it's just not that useful atm. Increased missile speed means that it's possible to actually hit at max range- this is balanced by the requirement to hold lock, which means you are either dependent on your team or exposed to return fire.

In their present form, I occasionally use LRMs on medium range flanking builds. An Artemis equipped LRM 20 is deadly on open terrain at 2-500 meters, when supported by other weapons anyway. Using them as long range fire support or indirect fire support is simply not practical. Also, ECM leaves them dead in the water, which is another thread. Literally. There is another thread about it right now. So I won't bother discussing it here.

Edited by RandomLurker, 28 September 2013 - 10:22 AM.

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Kitane, on 27 September 2013 - 11:04 PM, said:

1) Fix ECM. Remove this ******** {Scrap} that gives immunity from target locks and missiles and replace it with proper ECM that counters Artemis, NARC and additional range bonus of BAP.

2) Nerf Incoming missile warning. Make it part of AMS module and restrict the maximum range it can detect incoming missiles to ~400m


Really, most problems with LRMs are caused by fantasy Piranha ECM module some designer put together after getting thoroughly violated by LRM boats.

I like the idea of limiting missile warnings to mechs having an AMS installed. Other than that, I'm okay with the way things work now, except for the amount of narc ammo. Should have more rounds per ton.

[Appogee]

There are plenty of LRMs in the matches I'm playing. Sometimes, half the enemy team is packing them, standing at the back in Assaults, spamming me. It's just freaking tedious. I don't know how people find it enjoyable to be honest.

[Corbon Zackery]

This is touchy issue.

LRMs have been revised 4 times. twice in closed beta twice in open beta. No one is using them because they pushed AMS up a bit to much it splashes 5-8 missiles now making LRM 5 and 10 packs worthless unless used in large qnty.

Thanks

[Screech]

Appogee, on 28 September 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

There are plenty of LRMs in the matches I'm playing. Sometimes, half the enemy team is packing them, standing at the back in Assaults, spamming me. It's just freaking tedious. I don't know how people find it enjoyable to be honest.

They are nice if you are doing some mindless grinding or watching TV. Bringing a tag along will make it more interesting, taking out D-DC's that don't carry AMS is always fun.

[Appogee]

Screech, on 28 September 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

They are nice if you are doing some mindless grinding or watching TV. Bringing a tag along will make it more interesting, taking out D-DC's that don't carry AMS is always fun.

Fair enough. I do have a Victor with TAG and Artemis and LRMs for that purpose.

But personally I just find it dull to use, compared to more interesting and varied loadouts, anyway.

[Mr 144]

I enjoy playing with LRMs as a Striker, not a boat. Mobility gives far more advantages to volley size imho with the current limitations. "Fire-Hosed" ALRM30 out of the arm of a CTF-2X with TAG, ERPPC, and BAP (and a single ML or LL) running at 77-83 kph can be a PITA to deal with and is most definately a 'Wispy Killer'

[Wolfways]

I don't like boats. I like mechs like the Mad Dog. Use LRM's as you're closing in and finish them with Pulses

[SerratedBlaze]

The game goes stale when neither side is willing to stick their head out enough to get LOS and I think having indirect fire helps to make that stale state less prolonged. 12 'mechs standing on one side of the ridge doing absolutely nothing and not getting penalized for it isn't fun. indirect fire helps make them move and initiate.

Missle speed is what really needs to be upped imo (C1 main here) lights can outrun missles even when tagged fairly well and tend to just run into the 200m range when vs a boat.

I'd love to see a blind indirect weapon, like a literal catapult or trebuchet, maybe like from twisted metal black? some way of saying I know you're there, and your ecm is making the game boring as hell, take some damage and come get some!

[RandomLurker]

Thumper and Long Tom artillery cannons are what you want. They were usually put on tanks, because the took up nearly all of the space on a Mech, but they were definately possible to carry on mechs.

[Aym]

First off let me congratulate you on watching the stream. Second if all weapons are balanced for high end play then they won't be as balanced for low end play. Some things simply need to be 'noob friendly' but with a low skill cap, ala haduken and noob tube. LRMS fit this description. I refer you to Extra Credits 'balancing for skill' discussion.

[Krivvan]

The problem with balancing LRMs is that make them even slightly better, and they can become ridiculous. Make them slightly worse, then they work normally and few people use them at higher levels.

Are people seriously advocating for the days of the broken Artemis LRMs? Because that's the only thing that makes them halfway viable, and that ruined the game enough for an actually significant number of people to not play.

[Wolfways]

Aym, on 28 September 2013 - 10:55 PM, said:

First off let me congratulate you on watching the stream. Second if all weapons are balanced for high end play then they won't be as balanced for low end play. Some things simply need to be 'noob friendly' but with a low skill cap, ala haduken and noob tube. LRMS fit this description. I refer you to Extra Credits 'balancing for skill' discussion.

So the hardest weapon to use effectively in the game is "noob friendly"?

[Sephlock]

Wolfways, on 29 September 2013 - 12:29 AM, said:

So the hardest weapon to use effectively in the game is "noob friendly"?

I think what he's trying to say is that at low ELO it is usable. It's noob friendly in the sense that it is easy to use against the kinds of opponents that you'll encounter while you're a noob.

[Wolfways]

Sephlock, on 29 September 2013 - 12:34 AM, said:

I think what he's trying to say is that at low ELO it is usable. It's noob friendly in the sense that it is easy to use against the kinds of opponents that you'll encounter while you're a noob.

But it isn't.
I play pugs all the time and it's a pita weapon to use well, and new players seem to have more difficulty using LRM's than any other weapon (except current gauss).