230 replies to this topic

[Wispsy]

Kaijin, on 29 September 2013 - 02:52 AM, said:

We already have this. The jump-sniping meta has given way to the sniping from cover meta. Brawling only happens as a last act of desperation. Mostly, it's heavily armored war machines cowering behind cover, sniping at each other from across the field.

Situation hopeless.

I still see pretty much nothing but jumpsniping most of the time.


Anyway on topic! People who have never tried to use TAG and Artemis with their mostly full LRM build do not really have a right to comment on how effective they can be. :/

[Mr 144]

Wispsy, on 29 September 2013 - 03:35 AM, said:

I still see pretty much nothing but jumpsniping most of the time.


Anyway on topic! People who have never tried to use TAG and Artemis with their mostly full LRM build do not really have a right to comment on how effective they can be. :/

/agreed

I'll even add to it Artemis (LRM30 minimun) + TAG + BAP + PPC + Target Decay (ideally Seismic & Target Info Gathering as well) as a minumum requirement for 'optimum' LRM usage. With this criretia, an ECM light can harass you, while you successfully rain on a pair of D-DCs. Any more ECM than that...you've done the best you can, time to play the 'teamwork' card.

My Pugging LRM 'dedicated' build for about a year now, here.

Edited by Mr 144, 29 September 2013 - 03:59 AM.

[Kaijin]

Wispsy, on 29 September 2013 - 03:35 AM, said:

I still see pretty much nothing but jumpsniping most of the time.


Anyway on topic! People who have never tried to use TAG and Artemis with their mostly full LRM build do not really have a right to comment on how effective they can be. :/

I use both, and getting my 6-8 assists and maybe one lucky kill in a Cat-C1 takes a darn sight more effort that the 2-4 kills and 3 assists I'd get in my JR-7-D. Unfortunately, It is the Cat I have as my Founder's mech.

Edited by Kaijin, 29 September 2013 - 03:53 AM.

[Wispsy]

Kaijin, on 29 September 2013 - 03:51 AM, said:

I use both, and getting my 6-8 assists with no kills in a Cat-C1 takes a darn sight more effort that the 2-4 kills and 3 assists I'd get in my JR-7-D. Unfortunately, It is the Cat I have as my Founder's mech.

Yes you do, but others here do not

And we have been over the Cat many times :/

[Mr 144]

Wispsy, on 29 September 2013 - 03:55 AM, said:

Yes you do, but others here do not

And we have been over the Cat many times :/

no comment on my builds Wispy? Curious how you percieve my mentality...respect your opinion, but I have no 'fear' lol

[jeirhart]

Mr 144, on 29 September 2013 - 03:47 AM, said:

My Pugging LRM 'dedicated' build for about a year now, here.

Interesting build. Besides the idea of raining constant LRMs someone's head stuck out in the open (8,8,8,6 repeated), this doesn't seem to be a very effective build. Not only can someone move into cover and thus negate all damage after the first 8 or so hit, but AMS has longer to take out missiles from each volley. Furthermore you lack any defense under 90 meters allowing a light mech to core you fairly easily and with PPCs in the torso, your aim is restricted to whatever you're directly facing.

Instead, possibly try this or a variation on it. Doesn't even have Endo-steel so save you some c-bills.

All missiles come in a single 30 missile group (ouch) and your ER-large lasers have good reach while not having the same dead zone the PPCs have now. Furthermore, with the lasers in the arms you can aim at those pesky lights that much easier. I'm not saying this is best build, just one that takes elements of your existing CTF and improves on them.

[Kaijin]

Wispsy, on 29 September 2013 - 03:55 AM, said:

Yes you do, but others here do not

And we have been over the Cat many times :/

Yes we have, and I maintain that a canon LRM mech like the the Cat should be sufficient to the task. I shouldn't have to load up an Awesome with 4 LRM15s to get kills.

@Mr 144. I'd love to pit my Jenner against your short-range gimped fire-hose 'phract.

[Wispsy]

Mr 144, on 29 September 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

no comment on my builds Wispy? Curious how you percieve my mentality...respect your opinion, but I have no 'fear' lol

I would probably agree with jeirhart. V scary if you ever get closed on. AMS will do terrible things to your missile stream.

[Mr 144]

jeirhart, on 29 September 2013 - 04:15 AM, said:

Interesting build. Besides the idea of raining constant LRMs someone's head stuck out in the open (8,8,8,6 repeated), this doesn't seem to be a very effective build. Not only can someone move into cover and thus negate all damage after the first 8 or so hit, but AMS has longer to take out missiles from each volley. Furthermore you lack any defense under 90 meters allowing a light mech to core you fairly easily and with PPCs in the torso, your aim is restricted to whatever you're directly facing.

Instead, possibly try this or a variation on it. Doesn't even have Endo-steel so save you some c-bills.

All missiles come in a single 30 missile group (ouch) and your ER-large lasers have good reach while not having the same dead zone the PPCs have now. Furthermore, with the lasers in the arms you can aim at those pesky lights that much easier. I'm not saying this is best build, just one that takes elements of your existing CTF and improves on them.

well thank you for replying for one .

I've use many many diferent variations of this build. It's very refreshing to see someone understand how the CTF-2X's arm works. It's acuallt either 8,8,8,6 grouped....or....4,4,4,3,4,4,4,3 chain-fired. When chain-fired it produces almost an endless stream of LRMs with VERY tight groupings ala the multi-LRM5 builds of old, but much more efficient. With ~77kph, I have most definately sacrificed self-defense for the mobility needed to not be isolated. Most definately a playsyle thing, and I have variations (mentioned in this thread) that account for this.

The true crux of this build is the PPCs. In order to be 'effective' with LRMs, you have to maintain LoS for both TAG and Artemis. This takes time. Timing your twists to prevent loss of lock is important, and the ability to throw a PPC pin-point down-range (which also negates ECM) while doing so is a bonus 'pults can't enjoy.

With confidence, I can claim my build is far superior to any LRM boat (stalkers included) in it's 'role'. The playstyles may differ somewhat, but the role is essentialy the same.

[CravenMadness]

All you people proporting that lrms are balanced 'if used with x y and z' ... Can suck on a fat bag of floppy dongs. Does an er-large laser need three extra pieces of equipment to be viable? Does an ac / 20 need a 'pit crew, a primer crew, and a tap you on the head to let you know it's ready to fire' equipment? Here's a note, the catapult A1 ... premier lrm chassis... -NO ENERGY SLOTS-. So, you're saying this chassis completely designed around missiles shouldn't be even looked at as far as an lrm boat goes because it doesn't have the energy slots to 'make it balanced'? Does the Atlas have a quarter of it's tonnage dedicated to making sure it's 'anti-missile' ecm system is functioning properly? Does a nine medium laser hunchie have to have modules to dump water on his shoulder from his 3rd person drone? All these 'qualifiers' to make a weapon system even -barely- useable, are -not- the 'counter balance' to the base weapon. They are analogs that should be used to -enhance- weapon performance. Much like cool-shot on high heat mechs, or advanced zoom for sniping builds, or speed tweak for fast mechs.

The 'extras' you cram in, are 'extra' not 'necessary'. And should be considered as such when building the weapons.

[Mr 144]

Wispsy, on 29 September 2013 - 04:22 AM, said:

I would probably agree with jeirhart. V scary if you ever get closed on. AMS will do terrible things to your missile stream.

actually, AMS is not as bad as you would think. I include Target Info Gathering so I can target builds without it primary, but when faced with a bubble (ECM irrelevant) I can group fire 8,8,8,6. AMS seems to take out at least 5 of the first volley, but a different pattern is used in this wierd config. The 2nd and 3rd groups almost universaly target CT (no AMS interventon) and the last group of 6 is 50/50. It's a wierd exploit due to the tubes on the arm and mechanics of grouped vs chained that I take advantage of. Once Dynamic mounts are implemented for the 2X's arm...I'm screwed, lol....but I like the novelty of it, and it can actually be very effective once practiced.

@ Kaijin....that's why I sacrifice for moderate speed....I'm not the typical boat that can be isolated...bob, weaving, straffing through the group is the key to shaking lights...at which point a 4 missile grouping is very nasty. It's a wierd mechanic, but the smaller the grouping, the more likely to hit lights.

Edited by Mr 144, 29 September 2013 - 04:52 AM.

[Wolfways]

Duncan Jr Fischer, on 29 September 2013 - 02:56 AM, said:

I guess I'd be right to assume you haven't played Table-Top Battletech (TT for short). I mean classic effectiveness of weapons and equipment in their source which is TT, when I say LRMs were never an effective weapon as is.
The very fact they have minimum range suggests it. It is a weapon not to be a king of the battlefield, but to provide a suppressive fire and not to do much damage, but rather to spread damage to seek out the damaged parts of mechs to crit them at distance.

I only had a few TT games about 30 years ago, but you can't translate LRM's straight from TT to an fps because in TT missiles didn't have travel time. If you could see the target you could fire every weapon that was within range at it. Having travel time added for fps play is a significant nerf to begin with, which is why i also believe that the "extras" (TAG, NARC, etc) should be there to increase the effectiveness of LRM's, not to make them viable.
No weapon should be king of the battlefield, but players keep saying they need to hide behind cover to avoid LRM's. Don't you use cover to negate every weapon? Why is getting hit by an LRM20 worse than getting hit by a high damage weapon that hits a single component?
I'd say it's because when you can get hit by one LRM chances are you can be hit by multiple LRM's from different mechs. So the real problem is indirect fire. It is the only weapon in the game, so far, that can fire indirect. That's why i believe that if players don't want LRM's to be too effective, in their opinion, then nerf indirect fire a bit but buff direct fire. Let's face it, maps in MWO are generally made for close range fighting. They are small and have loads of cover, and if you're devoting the huge weight of LRM launchers and ammo to much of your weapons loadout then that weapon should be effective. Isn't that the reason PGI gave for AC's having such a high dps (other than also costing more in R&R)?

[wintersborn]

I am trying to make a support (LRM) mech work and the fact that you need Line of sight for Artemis and TAG to even hope to find a target is suicide.

Go ahead stand/slow walk in plain sight within 750m of the other team and see how fast you die.

ECM, Cover and faster than missles lights in a PUG team that WILL NOT target for you makes them almost useless.

3 or 4 ERLL's offers way more support with less BS.

[Stomp]

I love the fire and forget idea, I've been raving for months about ECM so much that I don't even post anymore... I just fume. But on the opposite end of the spectrum... I played Closed Beta. LRMApocalype. We didn't even have stalkers then. If LRMs become so much easier to use, something needs to be done about LRM 60 - 80 mechs. That **** is ridiculous. It's like dropping a bomb on top of a light mech, assaults it peels their armor so fast. It doesn't help that with the change to their flight it now drops on your head regardless of that wall of cover. So no. I don't want an ECM fix if it goes to this.

"Oh stop crying and advance under cover". Last I checked you can't just throw up an umbrella or tunnel and stroll to the enemy team, so, no. If they ever considered changing ECM (And at this point I honestly don't see them doing that) then leave it be. I'd love to see an LRM change that would make LRMs fire and forget, which might actually be the only fix worth doing considering ECM is cut through with PPC/TAG/BAP at this point. A TEAM would be able to utilize their equipment to make sure they have 3 seconds for a lock that now hits a target, and then disappears. I'd like that idea. Doesn't make pugging easier, but it's a start.

[Wolfways]

Stomp, on 29 September 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

I love the fire and forget idea,

Someone said LRM's used to be fire and forget in CB, but if so it must have been changed before i started.

Quote

I've been raving for months about ECM so much that I don't even post anymore... I just fume. But on the opposite end of the spectrum... I played Closed Beta. LRMApocalype. We didn't even have stalkers then. If LRMs become so much easier to use, something needs to be done about LRM 60 - 80 mechs. That **** is ridiculous. It's like dropping a bomb on top of a light mech, assaults it peels their armor so fast. It doesn't help that with the change to their flight it now drops on your head regardless of that wall of cover. So no. I don't want an ECM fix if it goes to this.

I have no doubt that if PGI did do something to buff LRM's it would be accompanied by some nerf to boating...probably more ghost heat. Yes, 80 LRM's is ridiculous, but so is the current LRM5 spam.

Quote

"Oh stop crying and advance under cover". Last I checked you can't just throw up an umbrella or tunnel and stroll to the enemy team, so, no. If they ever considered changing ECM (And at this point I honestly don't see them doing that) then leave it be. I'd love to see an LRM change that would make LRMs fire and forget, which might actually be the only fix worth doing considering ECM is cut through with PPC/TAG/BAP at this point. A TEAM would be able to utilize their equipment to make sure they have 3 seconds for a lock that now hits a target, and then disappears. I'd like that idea. Doesn't make pugging easier, but it's a start.

But you use cover to avoid fire from every other weapon right? Why should LRM's be different?

[Barantor]

How I might fix them? Been playing LRM boats since beta and endured the highs and lows, heck they were even OP a couple of times and I would freely admit it.

Drop the default indirect fire. Some folks might balk at this, but I don't honestly think it does much for LRMs. An alternative would be to keep indirect fire have a targeting computer required and make them fire slowly.

Double the flight speed. Make them fast, they should be like an AC at least if they are direct fire only. I don't mind them having an arc in their flight path, but direct fire more than 'over hills'.

Cone of fire. This should be the one weapon with a cone of fire. It screams for it. Have the cone become smaller if tag/narc/artemis is on. If that atlas is dumb enough to stand still and I have all of the above on, it should land 75%+ of my missiles in his center torso if I was able to click on his torso when it locked.

Have AMS have a minimum range. Missiles from far off it can knock out of the sky with ease, but if that LRM boat got close and has you locked with tag/narc/artemis then I hope you have lots of armor. There should be a sweet spot where ams won't work for the enemy, but you are still outside the minimum range for the missiles. I would say the 200-500m range would fit the bill.

I doubt they will ever take default indirect fire away though, so carry on with your conversation.

[Kaspirikay]

LRMs are weird. You can only make them OP or useless. The only way is to change the current weapon meta.

Edited by Kaspirikay, 29 September 2013 - 08:13 PM.

[Wolfways]

Kaspirikay, on 29 September 2013 - 08:08 PM, said:

LRMs are weird. You can only make them OP or useless. The only way is to change the current weapon meta.

For a weapon that weighs nearly as much as an AC20 but spreads damage and has a slow travel time they should be powerful.

[Kuritaclan]

Wolfways, on 29 September 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

For a weapon that weighs nearly as much as an AC20 but spreads damage and has a slow travel time they should be powerful.

range?

[MasterErrant]

the combination of artemis and advanced sensor madula burns through ECM at 5-600 meters tag mkes it happen fast the only fix LRMs need is a speed buff. an lrm fire cycle needs to be comparable to every other wapon not ten seconds...Frm first look to missile hit needs to be not a lot more that five seconds at a reasonable range...say 500 meters.
at least makeing the fire straight and fast with Artemis in los would be good.

LRMs are not a noob low skill weapons. it takes patience and planning to use them well, and they are good for suppression as well as damage. which makes them a real team/support weapon just exactly like they are in TT

the bad rep comes from players who have no patience and from the steady styream of one trick superboats. whic are stupid but powerfull.

Edited by MasterErrant, 29 September 2013 - 09:42 PM.