230 replies to this topic

[Shockwave144]

Barantor, on 12 October 2013 - 05:21 AM, said:

As far as your victor and that open water? You would've been toast by ppcs if ghost heat wasn't in too, or uac/5s if they hadn't nerfed them.

I'd be playing differently too so...

Barantor, on 12 October 2013 - 05:21 AM, said:

I think lrms are in the best place they have been, but I do think you have a valid complaint on the lrm5s alone being a bit spammy. I did have a game the other day where I would do very minimal damage when there were 3 ams. If the lights are doing their job they will follow the stream back to the boat, I know that a lot of lrm5 folks tend to stand still like idiots.

tl;dr - FOTM builds are bad, but LRMs as a whole aren't

That's all I was trying to get at.

[Navy Sixes]

LRMs = skill/ no skill?

Not a yes or no question. To be honest, if I had 2 brand-spanking-new players in my PUG drop, and I could fit their mechs for them, I'd put them in LRM-boats. I'd rig one like the "spam-cat" in Shockwave's video (which, by the way, proves nothing except that chain-firing allows you to shoot a lot without overheating: works as intended.) and I'd rig the other with "big boxes" (15s or 20s). I'd tell them to do exactly what the Cat in Shockwave's video did: stay out of the way, get a lock, and shovel LRMs like hay. Rinse. Repeat. They won't be winning the battle for us, but they will be able to contribute with little skill using a weapon-system that is pretty easy and safe to operate in indirect-fire mode.

I would not try to get them to figure out the Gauss mechanics or how to run a light, effectively. Nor would I want a new player in a front-line brawler; since everyone is going to "follow the fracking Atlas," it's always good for your atlas to know where it's going. LRMs are an easier weapon to play with a shallow learning curve.

But to play well? That's a different story. The learning curve may be shallow, but it is the longest in the game, hands down. I've been playing for about four months now, and when I come back to my LRM-Cat, I still find it a challenging mech to drive. I'm still trying-out new strategies in the mechlab, and new tactics on the field, still learning and growing. Other mechs/weapons seem to have a way to build/use. You do that and you get good at that. You get bored. You move on to the next mech/weapon. Not so with LRMs.

You can get around 300 damage out of a dedicated LRM build pretty quickly in your MW career, but then you hit a wall. If you don't get good at running not only the weapon, but also at building and running a good mech around it, you will assume that's all there is to it and move on, posting "LRM=no skill" because you never ran a LRM build with real skill to begin with. Or you'll get into a prem and say it's "too easy" because now you've got a good light spotter to do all the dirty-work for you. Drop solo into the PUG with a LRM Cat and figure out what you've got to do in order to coax consistent 600+ dmg games out of your build, then you can come back here and tell us there's nothing to it.

LRMs are like piano. Some will figure out how to play "Chopsticks" in ten minutes and then go around saying they can play the piano and it's no big deal. Others won't be happy until they're playing Beethoven or Monk, and that's a much longer and rewarding road to travel.

As for making them more viable? Quit trying to buff the weapon and start nerfing some of the way-too-many counters. ECM should negate Artemis bonuses but not prevent a lock, and their ECM field should show up on the battlemap. Only mechs with BAP should get a Betty "Incoming Missiles" warning. Only mechs with BAP should be able to field AMS. AMS should be going through ammo faster. Other than that, maybe make LRMs a little faster and I think that'd be about perfect.

[Charons Little Helper]

I don't actually mind the "Incoming Missiles" warning. (or even everyone able to get AMS for that matter - deals with the LRM 5 chainers) For one thing - I love plugging an LRM 5 at somone I know I can't hit and see them run for cover. Often enough to break a coordinated charge.

ECM should be nerfed though. And a small speed increase wouldn't go amiss.

Though if they ever make LRMs scatter about the mech (similar to streaks) the damage would need to go up to 1.6ish. I'd actually prefer them to work this way, though only with a significant speed buff. Without the speed buff to go along with it, far more of the missiles would miss entirely if they weren't aimed for the center of mass.

Edited by Charons Little Helper, 12 October 2013 - 08:03 AM.

[Shakespeare]

Charons Little Helper, on 12 October 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

I don't actually mind the "Incoming Missiles" warning. (or even everyone able to get AMS for that matter - deals with the LRM 5 chainers) For one thing - I love plugging an LRM 5 at somone I know I can't hit and see them run for cover. Often enough to break a coordinated charge.

ECM should be nerfed though. And a small speed increase wouldn't go amiss.

Though if they ever make LRMs scatter about the mech (similar to streaks) the damage would need to go up to 1.6ish. I'd actually prefer them to work this way, though only with a significant speed buff. Without the speed buff to go along with it, far more of the missiles would miss entirely if they weren't aimed for the center of mass.

They do scatter, in a sense - larger volleys have a bigger cross-section that hits several locations. That's one reason you see so many 5-LRM spammers. They get more focus damage out of it.

In my experience, LRMs are only a threat in huge groups against disorganized opposition. Yeah, the tagger + 3 LRM boat combination is EXTEREMELY irritating to fight against, especially when the spotter is tiny and tough to hit. I had one spider just dance right in front of me while tagging because he KNEW there was no way I'd be able to kill a fresh spider before the LRMs tore me in half. In that moment, I hated all LRMers forever.

But that was organized play against an isolated mech, essentially 4-to-1, and the 3 LRMs probably had at least 40 missiles each.

160 missiles on a single target, repeately, should be highly dangerous, just like 15 AC5 shells in a few seconds should be highly dangerous. It's the ability to coordinate without exposing oneself to damage that makes LRM so infuriating. But not nerf worthy.

It takes a group of them to make LRMs effective - which ****** me off, actually, since I can't just support a PUG with 1 LRM mech. 30-40 per salvo isn't enough to fend off even one heavy, unless he's XLed, and on direct fire, I'm far more vulnerable than my victim in this environment. Faster LRMs would help. I don't expect to be able to crush my opponents with a lock on weapon from 600 away, but LRMs are currently the least effective long range weapon per mech. That's goofy.

[Prezimonto]

Zyllos, on 02 October 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

Here are some changes that would really help balance LRMs overall as well as give more meaning to Electronic Warfare and Scouting:

Either way, I have typed up enough and I doubt any of this will happen.

Zyllos, this would be amazing.

[wintersborn]

As I said before and how your video demonstrated 6 x LRM5's chain fired will over heat a A1 in my case (nothing but LRMs and 12 man ammo, Artemis, 250Xl w/Double sinks maxed) it was about 17 seconds. On test this build averaged about 20-25 seconds including lock and flight time to kill a static Atlas with clear line of sight @ 750m (TAG Limit)with Artemis.

So if you let someone pound on you for 20 seconds you will die like it should be and your second video was edited to make it look like a few LRM5 salvo's destroyed the mech, that is "reaching" and we know it.

If you have a hard time getting locks with just streaks, well I wont even go there.

The heat is fine for the damage it does even without AMS or ECM or Cover etc.

If you hate LRM's pilot a fast light and just out run them and go kill the LRM boats.

[wintersborn]

Oh and again before I sold my A1 I did have one good round. I ran with 3 other ECM lights (2 with TAG) and we went and hunted Assault solo mechs. They TAG'ed and jammed the ECM Atlas as I sat there at 400m holding down the chain fire button (having to hold off to prevent over heating) with LOS + Artemis (+their TAG). We killed 3 Assaults that round and my OP score was 528 damage and I used up all 2800ish missiles?

In PUG's without organized team play I would average about 180-260ish damage, which is sad for a heavy mech with one role and no self defense.

I average around 300-500dam with my 2/3 x ERLL Cicadia so you can see why most of us do not think LRM's are OP or no skill, in fact its the other way around if you do it right.

Edited by wintersborn, 12 October 2013 - 03:51 PM.

[Damia Savon]

Fajther, on 28 September 2013 - 02:20 AM, said:

From the cb on to today it seems as though pgi has wanted lrms and ssrms to be first order optimal strategies. (noob weapons that introduce people to the game.) That is where they are good. In pug matches they are quite good. I believe that is where they should stay. LRM+art get me decent numbers in pub games. Just call it a niche weapon, if that makes you feel better. LRMs are quite good as they are. As a side note, when ever they mess with them it usually involves months of balance problems. It is better to leave them as they are.

A flamer is a niche weapon. LRMs have always been central to the game.

[Damia Savon]

Wispsy, on 28 September 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

Tag and Artemis have no other use except in conjunction with lrms. If you make LRMs viable without them then adding them on would make them sickeningly overpowered...so they are balanced with tag and artemis in mind. If you are not using a 1ton laser that decreases lockon time, increases tracking and allows you to lock on to targets under ECM cover then you deserve sub 100 dmg a game...

Every weapon system should be viable on its own without enhancements. Add ons should enhance and detract from the performance of weapons.

Ideally ECM should make targets harder to acquire and keep, not utterly shut down a system.

Tag does require you to give up a weapon slot and that is important in some builds. Why should a C4 with two energy slots be required to give up one just so its primary weapon system can be used? What about an A1 with no energy slots at all? TAG requires LOS which means if I am tagging you then you are dropping missiles on me, pounding me with ACs or shooting PPCs in my face.

Artemis only helps with LOS shooting only, so see above.

Narc - worthless. It is heavy, short ranged and a feather's worth of damage from any source kills it.

BAP is pretty much a given to try to counter ECM.

Basically if you take an add on to reduce the effectiveness of LRMS then I should take one to offset that. That is the purpose of equipment and modules. Neither should be a requirement for effective use right out of the box.

[Joseph Mallan]

Shockwave144, on 11 October 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Still not getting it.

The video was only supposed to show an LRM boat firing non-stop. That's all the video was supposed to show.

Explain to me how an LRM boat doesn't suffer from overheating?

Firing with in its cyclic rate. It isn't hard. The Mech in question was chain firing his LRM5s a very low heat weapon.

[cmdr_scotty]

another thought to fixing the ECM issue.

make it still allow lock on as normal no ecm mech would get a lock on.

BUT

at about say 60-90m cause the lrm salvo to scatter.

what this would do is fix the lock on immunity that ecm does, allow lrm's to be viable against it, but still provide (some) type of benefit.

could even have it as:

artemis lrm: salvo reverts to non artemis spread at 60m
non artemis lrm: salvo looses 15% spread at 60m

or something like that.