230 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Shockwave144, on 09 October 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

Disclaimer: You may feel light headed or pass out from the amount of skill in this video.

Sorry but he was doing his job. He was killing the enemy. With multiple LRM5s. I say good job. o7

BTW... While you were sitting in the backfield doing nothing your team could have used another Assault Mech on the line.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 10 October 2013 - 04:08 AM.

[Citizen Rat]

I am an LRM boater. I have on occasion behaved exactly like the A1 in shockwave's video above. I generally don't stand still and prefer to use the boat in a direct fire role.

If folks want to stand there like puddings then I am obliged to rain firey death upon them. Similarly if charging across open ground you can expect to be battered. It can act as a suppressive weapon and exert control over a large section of the battlefield.

As mentioned there are severe limitations in the build. If you don't want to accept that don't run that build.
It is a gamble. Sometimes I do 6-700 damage, sometimes a lot less, depending on ecm, ams and opposition skill.

Also LRMs can be dumb fired. I have actually been accused of cheating after hitting mechs under ecm cover. Just because I cant target you does not mean I cant shoot you. So to all those folks who state that LRMs take no skill give dumbfire LRMs a try, then run back to your direct fire simplicity.

[Mr 144]

Shockwave144, on 10 October 2013 - 12:30 AM, said:

Seems? You know what they say about assuming. Either way, your case is weak if that's all you have to go on.


Who's "we"? You keep talking with nothing to back up your remarks and I keep posting videos that prove you wrong. What you don't seem to understand is, I don't need you to admit it to me, I already know they require zero effort to use.

What cracks me up is you can look at the last video I posted and say, "that's pure skill right there." "Holding down the left mouse buttton is the real trick, not everyone can do it."

If I posted a video of myself boating LRMs, it would be the nail in the coffin for you. I was giving you a chance to reply with one of your own videos but it looks like that will never happen.

#1: "We" add me to that list, so right there that's a 'we' who think you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

#2: None of your screenshots or videos have shown the match results. In order to establish any semblance of a point, you would need to show what the actual results are...not just "Oh look at all the OMG OP purrty spammed Lurmage"

#3: The A1 spam build is bad....The CTF-2X build with 2xALRM15, TAG, and 2xPPC is superior in every concievable way if you care nothing for close range defense. Both can non stop spam LRM30 firehoses, and the phract has both Artemis and TAG to tighten the clusters even more...much less a pair of PPCs to throw to boot.

#4: Please post these selfie videos you threaten 'us' with showing your over-powered uber-awesomesauce matches (with end of round screens) which will obviously demonstrate what you percieve from spectating as OP.

#5: You have 'proven' nothing in any of your posts. You have only shown a good amount of fear on your part of LRMs...which most of us truly do find amusing.

[CravenMadness]

And I mean, ffs... Look at your video... You're just watching the missiles fly, you didn't even bother to try and find the target your missile boat was shooting at to show if -any- of those lrm 5 groups were even hitting. By the way, it's the 'R' key. The same one that -everyone besides lrm users- seems to have a problem finding.

[Shockwave144]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 October 2013 - 03:27 AM, said:

Sorry but he was doing his job. He was killing the enemy. With multiple LRM5s. I say good job. o7

BTW... While you were sitting in the backfield doing nothing your team could have used another Assault Mech on the line.

Still not getting it.

The video was only supposed to show an LRM boat firing non-stop. That's all the video was supposed to show.

Explain to me how an LRM boat doesn't suffer from overheating?

Edited by Shockwave144, 11 October 2013 - 11:44 AM.

[AC]

The LRM5 build is cheap, not because of the damage it does but because of the impulse. Being spammed by continuous LRM's knocks you around so much that not only are you unable to shoot back, but you are lucky not to have an epileptic seizure from all the screen shake and flashing.

[Shockwave144]

AC, on 11 October 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

The LRM5 build is cheap, not because of the damage it does but because of the impulse. Being spammed by continuous LRM's knocks you around so much that not only are you unable to shoot back, but you are lucky not to have an epileptic seizure from all the screen shake and flashing.

Well, most of the time you can't even return fire because the person shooting the LRMs is 800m away behind a rock. Meaning they can shoot you, but you have no possible way to shoot them. Doesn't seem very balanced, does it.

Edited by Shockwave144, 11 October 2013 - 11:21 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

wintersborn, on 02 October 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

Sorry Shockwave but, Honestly try a true LRM boat (CAT, AWS 8R, STK H) with at least 2xLRM 20's or 4xLRM15's and you will see what we mean. Then save up the Billions for the extra gear and perks needed to make them even viable and you will see.

There is a very good reason you never see the competitive players use them and hardly any in PUG's.

They are not really worth it and most definitely not OP.

Well competitive players can shoot straight and when a quad ac2 build has twice the range, and zoom module is clear now, its not hard to see why, top flight don't use them much.

[wintersborn]

Shockwave144, on 11 October 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Still not getting it.

The video was only supposed to show an LRM boat firing non-stop. That's all the video was supposed to show.

Explain to me how an LRM boat doesn't suffer from overheating?

The A1 I built just as a "Rattlecan" (6xLRM5 Chain fired) build and to play with JJ targeting overheats in about 17 seconds. And again if he can not see you at 800m he can not target you so you were targeted by another player who can shoot you just as easily as target you.

The average damage with Artemis and advanced target decay is around 200 per assault game. That is rather low so again its the same tactic as a 4/6 x AC2/5 but with more spread and slower and lower DPS due to projectile speed.

Spend the money and build a A1 and see for yourself.

[Volthorne]

Shockwave144, on 11 October 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

Well, most of the time you can't even return fire because the person shooting the LRMs is 800m away behind a rock. Meaning they can shoot you, but you have no possible way to shoot them. Doesn't seem very balanced, does it.

AMS/ECM: the 1.5 ton investment that wrecks an LRM-users day. Doesn't seem very balanced for 1.5 tonnes to negate 10+, does it?

Please stop saying things that are dumber than a bag of hammer handles.

Edited by Volthorne, 11 October 2013 - 03:00 PM.

[Shockwave144]

Volthorne, on 11 October 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

AMS/ECM: the 1.5 ton investment that wrecks an LRM-users day. Doesn't seem very balanced for 1.5 tonnes to negate 10+, does it?

Please stop saying things that are dumber than a bag of hammer handles.

I wasn't even talking about AMS/ECM but I like how you made it seem like I was. Good job.

First of all, AMS cannot stand up to endless streams of LRMs. I have never been in a situation where the AMS shot down every single rocket, not even close. Sometimes I don't bother bringing it because it's almost like not having it if you are caught out in the open. They will also run out of ammo very quickly. My AMS has run dry on quite a few occasions because of LRM spam. As for the ECM, I hate it too. One thing they need to fix is if you have direct line of sight, you should be able to target the enemy using it and/or if they are within a certain distance. I use streaks sometimes and it's annoying when I can't lock-on to lights even though they are right in front of me.

As for next time, if you don't like something, just say so instead of passing the blame onto someone else.

Edited by Shockwave144, 11 October 2013 - 10:00 PM.

[YueFei]

Shockwave144, on 11 October 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

I wasn't even talking about AMS/ECM but I like how you made it seem like I was. Good job.

First of all, AMS cannot stand up to endless streams of LRMs. I have never been in a situation where the AMS shot down every single rocket, not even close. Sometimes I don't bother bringing it because it's almost like not having it if you are caught out in the open. They will also run out of ammo very quickly. My AMS has run dry on quite a few occasions because of LRM spam. As for the ECM, I hate it too. One thing they need to fix is if you have direct line of sight, you should be able to target the enemy using it and/or if they are within a certain distance. I use streaks sometimes and it's annoying when I can't lock-on to lights even though they are right in front of me.

As for next time, if you don't like something, just say so instead of passing the blame onto someone else.

If someone ripple-fires LRMs at you, as opposed to firing an entire volley simultaneously, a single AMS will eat most of those missiles.

Actually if someone ripple-fires LRMs at you they are lowering their own DPS. Just calm yourself down and find some cover, it's not going to kill you anytime soon.

[Shockwave144]

YueFei, on 12 October 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

If someone ripple-fires LRMs at you, as opposed to firing an entire volley simultaneously, a single AMS will eat most of those missiles.

Actually if someone ripple-fires LRMs at you they are lowering their own DPS. Just calm yourself down and find some cover, it's not going to kill you anytime soon.

You're not addressing the heat issue, or lack there of. No weapon in this game, other than LRMs, can fire contiuously without shutting down. Some also can't fire continuously because the weapons' mechanics just doesn't allow it.

So if you think it's fine for the LRM boats to be able to launch them without a huge heat penalty, then there is nothing left to talk about. That's also just my main issue with it.

Like I said before, LRMs aren't the problem, its the constant stream of them.

How LRMs should behave:
No LoS means instant loss of lock
Can only fire 5 volleys at a time, give or take, before overheating (prevents spam)
Cannot track you from behind cover if no one has eyes on you
Increase minimum range to 400m

ECM:
LRMs can lock on if user has direct LoS (rewards player for getting involved in the fight)

AMS:
Weighs more
Provide users with different types of AMS, from weak to strong (classes could be AMS boats, direct counter to LRM boats)

I'm the only one offering up suggestions for every aspect. Lets see if you can do the same.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Shockwave, it would seem that you just hate LRMs. If you insist on walking in the open without AMS or ECM then you probably will get hit by them. It is also much more likely that you will be killed by direct fire ballistics that you don't even see and are used much more extensively. LRM 5s ripple fired are a nuisance not a killer.
As for your post above. Lock is lost if you, or another on your team doesn't have line of sight.
I have no problem with only 5 volleys at a time, if this also applies to all other weapons - my ballistic mechs don't overheat either.
As for the minimum range increase, why? LRMs are only a medium range weapon in this game, They are outranged by a number of weapons and 400m is about the optimum range for direct fire,.
As for AMS, it can take out every missile in a 5 salvo, maybe you just need more ammo for it while closing on the LRM "boat"" to kill it.

[MustrumRidcully]

Shockwave144, on 12 October 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

You're not addressing the heat issue, or lack there of. No weapon in this game, other than LRMs, can fire contiuously without shutting down. Some also can't fire continuously because the weapons' mechanics just doesn't allow it.

Counter Example: Machine Gun. No matter how many you equip, they won't overheat you.
Also, it's wrong that LRMs don't overheat you. If you use small enough ones and have enough heat sinks, yeah, LMrs don't overheat.
Guess what - that's true for pretty much all weapons. A Spider with 2 MLs and DHS can fire non-stop, no one is scared.

You're assigning relevance to observations that have no relevance on their own. Fundamentally, there is no imbalance inherent to being able to fire non-stop.

[CravenMadness]

Spider D can run an er-ppc and have almost a 2.0 heat efficiency... It can run a large pulse laser and run forever spamming it (and I often do, it's hilarious sticking one arm around the corner of a building and popping a side torso). My atlas runs with two large lasers, three streaks, and a pair of u/ac5s and has about a 1.3 heat efficiency and when I pay attention I can keep it running without overheating. I run my jagers with dual uac/5, and medium lasers and I don't overheat with that... Actually, you can run almost anything and not overheat... It's called paying attention.

I actually overheat more in my missile boat, than I do in any other of my chassis... Because when I get within 180 - 270 meters, I'm firing off my two lrm 15 launchers and 4x ssrm2s and guess what, if I'm not paying attention to it the ghost heat kicks my *** into overheat because ... LRM launchers and SSRM launchers (despite being completely different weapon sizes/characteristics for targeting/range/damage) triggers ghost heat.


"I'm the only one offering up suggestions for every aspect. Lets see if you can do the same."

And the only things you are 'offering up' is uninformed opinions based on either being a bad pilot and being wrecked by one of the weakest weapons groups in the game, or you are just a very successful troll being fed for eleven pages while you keep throwing up obtuse commentary.

Edited by CravenMadness, 12 October 2013 - 04:59 AM.

[Shockwave144]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 12 October 2013 - 03:58 AM, said:

As for your post above. Lock is lost if you, or another on your team doesn't have line of sight.

Then I'll post video of me getting hit behind cover, while still being tracked, with no enemies around.

Nik Van Rhijn, on 12 October 2013 - 03:58 AM, said:

I have no problem with only 5 volleys at a time, if this also applies to all other weapons - my ballistic mechs don't overheat either.

3x AC/2 will shoot your heat through the roof. LRMs are also the only weapons than can shoot over obstacles and not lose damage effectiveness at any distance, unlike ballistics. Any weapon in the game that fires repeatedly should cause much more heat over time.



Just watch the heat meter. It barely moves and I doubt the pilot looked at it once. If it was just the Cat and the enemy, there would be no way for him to accurately return fire while getting pummled into the ground.



This is what it looks like from the other perspective. Even going at 60kph, I couldn't even make it to the boat to get some cover. I didn't notice him which was why I was moving up. Even still, never thought he could kill me that quickly. Plus, that was an assault I was in and got obliterated by LRMs even though he was only shooting at me for for maybe 5-6 seconds. The stalker was just standing out in the open without a care. Didn't even bother to take cover, just spammed those LRMs until I died and that AMS didn't do much either.

No way that's balanced. Sorry.

Nik Van Rhijn, on 12 October 2013 - 03:58 AM, said:

As for the minimum range increase, why? LRMs are only a medium range weapon in this game, They are outranged by a number of weapons and 400m is about the optimum range for direct fire.

LRM means Long Range Weapon so it needs to be just that, not a medium range weapon. Without considering extending the maximum range before, make it 700m-1500m. Now that's a long range weapon. This way it becomes a specialist artillery weapon that requires real planning to operate, not just finding a hill to spam from. It's a very deadly weapon and needs to be treated as such. If people want to use rockets in close, that's what SRMs are for.

Nik Van Rhijn, on 12 October 2013 - 03:58 AM, said:

As for AMS, it can take out every missile in a 5 salvo, maybe you just need more ammo for it while closing on the LRM "boat"" to kill it.

Or just needs to fire faster, ammo isn't the problem when missiles are still getting through. However, if they fix the issues I suggested, they can leave the AMS where it is.

[CravenMadness]

Lets see, in the first video, every time he launches one of his lrm racks
the heat jumps about three percent. The first target it launched at was
cored out front and back. The resolution is also so bad, can't tell what
the enemy is using except for the second mech that looks like an erppc
gauss user. If they were 'alone' the lrm launcher wouldn't have been
anywhere near that close to them anyway, and the first of those mechs down
still wouldn't have had a chance against the lrm user (or anyone else for
that matter, being already almost dead) and at range, with no one else to
target for it, the A1 would have been nuked by the ppc+gauss user through
35 point pinpoint damage every four seconds instead of -maybe- 30 damage
the six lrm5s put out over the course of 4 secods cycle time per launcher
plus about eight seconds of missile projectile time. Also, it's *******
-ALPINE- heh... Lrm mech's dream map come true.

And as for the second match, -again- you start videoing when the one you
say died 'too fast' was already cored out, -and- you were likely carrying
an xl engine in your victor plus you were zoomed in not paying attention
to where your team was, out -in front- of the giant rock in forest colony
instead of being behind it with your team. ... in the open line of sight
for the entire enemy team... -plus- what hit you looked like large blobs,
probably something like four lrm 15s, not the lrm 5 spam of an A1. Again,
it's hard to tell what the enemy is using since you don't know how to hit R
to target the mech you are bitching about. If you check out your death
report, it also shows you being pegged by ac/2, which is likely where all
your screen shake was coming from. Not the blobs of lrms.

[Charons Little Helper]

Really? Really - LRMs are your bane? Of note - you closing in on the LRM boat did reduce the effect of your AMS since you were reducing the time until impact. But AMS doesn't do much against blobs of LRMs - nor should it.

Oh - and 60kph isn't very fast. My atlas is nearly that fast.

LRMs are supposed to be the bane of assault mechs. This is a game with rock scissors paper. You are rock arguing that paper is incredibly broken.

LRMs very nearly never hit lights, and a fast medium never takes a full volley due to outrunning most of it.

Edited by Charons Little Helper, 12 October 2013 - 05:37 AM.

[Barantor]

Ok, I get it, you hate being pummeled by something that can shoot rapid fire and you can't direct fire back. I used to hate UAC/5s and the fact that if I even so much as showed an arm beyond cover I got dakka-dakka'd it off. That didn't take a lot of skill to me since it was just wasting a lot of ammo and streaming. This seems to be the same thing you are worried about.

The problem is that with the uac/5s they would pull immense damage ratios for the weight. I have not seen one of the lrm5ers pull anywhere near the numbers I can with my lrm15s as far as damage. The indirect fire needs a spotter too, so unless he has a friend, it is a lot of luck with pugs.

I don't actually mind if lrms that are fired indirect go slower or something either, but I also think that direct fire lrms should go faster.

As far as your victor and that open water? You would've been toast by ppcs if ghost heat wasn't in too, or uac/5s if they hadn't nerfed them.

I think lrms are in the best place they have been, but I do think you have a valid complaint on the lrm5s alone being a bit spammy. I did have a game the other day where I would do very minimal damage when there were 3 ams. If the lights are doing their job they will follow the stream back to the boat, I know that a lot of lrm5 folks tend to stand still like idiots.

tl;dr - FOTM builds are bad, but LRMs as a whole aren't