230 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

I am not sure if skill / no skill is really the right terms to use when comparing LRMs to other weapons anymore.

Does it require a particular skill set to hold a lock? I don't really think so. But what it requires is time. Time you cannot spend torso twisting while under fire. And if you use LRMs for indirect fire while in safety of cover? The spotter(s) need to spend the time. If they can't hold the target locked on, the missiles go to waste. But that forces our spotters to stay at the front-lines and under fire. What is really gained by this? The enemy can focus fire on the spotter. Sure, the LRM boat might be in safety somewhere else, but what use is it, if you still require your spotter to play target?

There might be a marginal benefit in that you can support a scout - but due to the slowness of missiles, this is mostly impractical - to actually get that benefit requires more exposure of our scout then he would need to do his job.


That's why I would like the whole targeting/locking business of missiles changed.
Give missiles a lock-on time of 1 second. You select a target. You press the fire button, and hold your crosshair on the target for 1 second. Similar to a laser that deals its damage in small pulses over his beam duration, the LRM basically gets a "lock-pulse" over this duration. At the end of the 1 second duration, the missiles are launched, and one missile per "lock-pulse" will find its way to the target, to where the lock pulse hit the target (with a small scattering effect to avoid too much precision).

If you wish to use LRMs for indirect fire, you can switch to indirect fire mode. When you select a shared target, the spotter will become aware that indirect fire LRMs are available, and does the locking exactly like you do it.
Indirect Fire uses a larger scatter effect and doesn't track the precise location on the mech the spotter targeted at.
If multiple spotters try to get an aim, it's first come, first serve. If multiple spotters and multiple indirect fire sources are avaialble, it's first come, first serve by closest available.

Artemis:
You effectively generate x % more "lock pulses" over the duration, and any pulses that didn't hit a target (up to the x %) are effectively ignored, meaning effectively things become more forgiving.

TAG:
Like Artemis, but works also for Spotters.

Narc:
Acts as indirect fire spotter that basically constantly locks on the target its attached to, giving an indirect fire shooter very good hit chances.

[Radbane]

Hmm Indirect and Direct fire modes? What if we actually could switch firing modes just like the ECM can go between counter and disrupt.

- Indirect fire: Should work exactly as now. Require a lock, travel in a volley, take forever to reach the target, get stopped by terrain, spread the damage, not be able to hit lights.

- Direct fire: Not require a lock, Straight flight, no homing ability, spread the further they go (supressed somewhat by tag, narc, art, but still a lot of spread), same range (IE no damage closer than 180m). Pretty much dumbfire mode just in case we're upp against ECM, or the map geometry prevents missiles to hit the target (tunnels etc)


It would require what the LRM haters whine about .. aim, but also remove some of the obstacles we LRM users face. DMG/Ton with a close range penalty would not make SRM's obsolete if this was implented.

[AC]

That is one of the things I miss the most from MW4. Being able to dumb fire LRM's at a target and cause damage. I hate that Atlas that stands in the open because the other team doesn't have BAP or TAG. Being able to dumb fire LRM's at it would at least get its fat rear moving for cover. Same with popping mechs. Dumb firing your LRM's so that they arrive when the mech pops is very satisfying.

[Xyroc]

LRMs may need just a small small change but I still do great in my cplt c4 w/ 2x15s 2x5s and tag.

AC, on 09 October 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

That is one of the things I miss the most from MW4. Being able to dumb fire LRM's at a target and cause damage. I hate that Atlas that stands in the open because the other team doesn't have BAP or TAG. Being able to dumb fire LRM's at it would at least get its fat rear moving for cover. Same with popping mechs. Dumb firing your LRM's so that they arrive when the mech pops is very satisfying.

you can dumb fire them ... I do it all the time

[James The Fox Dixon]

AC, on 09 October 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

That is one of the things I miss the most from MW4. Being able to dumb fire LRM's at a target and cause damage. I hate that Atlas that stands in the open because the other team doesn't have BAP or TAG. Being able to dumb fire LRM's at it would at least get its fat rear moving for cover. Same with popping mechs. Dumb firing your LRM's so that they arrive when the mech pops is very satisfying.

You can dumbfire LRMs and still do damage. I did it the other night when we faced an all Atlas team. The missiles followed where my reticle was and did damage to them
.

[Wolfways]

Radbane, on 09 October 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

Hmm Indirect and Direct fire modes? What if we actually could switch firing modes just like the ECM can go between counter and disrupt.

- Indirect fire: Should work exactly as now. Require a lock, travel in a volley, take forever to reach the target, get stopped by terrain, spread the damage, not be able to hit lights.

- Direct fire: Not require a lock, Straight flight, no homing ability, spread the further they go (supressed somewhat by tag, narc, art, but still a lot of spread), same range (IE no damage closer than 180m). Pretty much dumbfire mode just in case we're upp against ECM, or the map geometry prevents missiles to hit the target (tunnels etc)


It would require what the LRM haters whine about .. aim, but also remove some of the obstacles we LRM users face. DMG/Ton with a close range penalty would not make SRM's obsolete if this was implented.

No lock for direct fire, at the speed LRM's travel? You can dumb fire them now, but for direct fire they should still be lock-on weapons.

[Mr 144]

I'd be happy if they just actively followed a TAG in dumb-fire mode....as opposed to currently targeting the 5 second delayed point of impact on initial click. People claim LRMs are skill-less, when in fact they are the highest skilled weapons of the game, but I'm all for making it more apparent that skill can be used by better dumb-firing

[Shockwave144]

Disclaimer: You may feel light headed or pass out from the amount of skill in this video.

[wintersborn]

Um Shockwave are we talking about the lack of skill standing behind the group watching a CAT lay down suppressive fire on top of a hill? Or are you saying that the CAT(LRM's)have no skill because he has the high ground with LOS and front scouts getting LOS targets for him?

Its been proven over and over gain that using LRMs effectively take skill, gear and money. You can do this same thing with less skill, gear etc. with a 4 or 6 AC2/5's chain fired.

Those small LRM5 salvo's in a chain fire stream are for cockpit shake and to force cover. That is what they and what the CAT pilot is supposed to do just like a Jager with 4/6 x AC2/5's would do in that same situation.

How many kills did the CAT driver get, what was his damage for the round if he lived the entire round?

[wintersborn]

I think the easiest way to bring LRM's back is to speed up the flight time of the missiles.

At max and TAG range a salvo can take up to 10 seconds to hit. Standing in the open with LOS and targeting/Tagging a target for that long is almost suicide but this is the most effective way to use LRM's as a support boat.

Just wandering around in the back tossing random salvo's at other peoples targets is not effective or helpful for man, many reasons.

[Shockwave144]

wintersborn, on 09 October 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

Um Shockwave are we talking about the lack of skill standing behind the group watching a CAT lay down suppressive fire on top of a hill?

Yeah, because I can record from the back of my head...
Try to put more thought into it next time.

wintersborn, on 09 October 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

Or are you saying that the CAT(LRM's)have no skill because he has the high ground with LOS and front scouts getting LOS targets for him?

Where's the cooling off period? Every weapon has a cooldown whether it's a reloading mechanism or charge delay. Even if you try to boat lasers or ACs, they will overheat very quickly. However, LRMs can fire forever without worry.

wintersborn, on 09 October 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

Its been proven over and over gain that using LRMs effectively take skill, gear and money. You can do this same thing with less skill, gear etc. with a 4 or 6 AC2/5's chain fired.

Um, I just proved it takes zero skill. Where's your evidence? All you do is talk.

Yeah, with any AC weapon you actually have to aim, lead targets and... be in danger! LRM boats have none of those issues.

wintersborn, on 09 October 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

Those small LRM5 salvo's in a chain fire stream are for cockpit shake and to force cover. That is what they and what the CAT pilot is supposed to do just like a Jager with 4/6 x AC2/5's would do in that same situation.

Anything that can lock on takes zero skill. Lock on means you just have to pull the trigger. I don't know what world you live on but there is no skill in sitting on top of a hill and spamming the left mouse button. It may take planning to find a good spot but that's with any weapon.

wintersborn, on 09 October 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

How many kills did the CAT driver get, what was his damage for the round if he lived the entire round?

I have no idea. All I know is after I was done recording, I ran down and got my hands dirty.

Bottom line, LRM spam needs to generate a lot more heat for controlled firing. This way they have to think before firing and actually worry about overheating. It needs to generate heat like throwing on 3x AC/2s and holding down the trigger.

Edited by Shockwave144, 09 October 2013 - 05:26 PM.

[Squiggy McPew]

With good scouting lrm boats like the cat a1 are devastating.

Without good scouts its a fairly useless mech.

Hell, I would settle for players who simply remember to hit the damn R button.

If everyone on my team did that then I would be drowning in kills and assists.

[Volthorne]

Shockwave144, on 09 October 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

Disclaimer: You may feel light headed or pass out from the amount of skill in this video.

My guess is he was using a build like this. Unfortunately, that has so many drawbacks I wouldn't know where to start, aside from the obvious lack of close-range defenses.

Shockwave144, on 09 October 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

Where's the cooling off period? Every weapon has a cooldown whether it's a reloading mechanism or charge delay. Even if you try to boat lasers or ACs, they will overheat very quickly. However, LRMs can fire forever without worry.

Anything larger than an LRM-5 takes a decent number of heatsinks to keep cool.

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Um, I just proved it takes zero skill. Where's your evidence? All you do is talk.

You proved... something? Probably that in the right conditions, any weapon can set up shop and be considered "op" (I would like to point out that just a pair of AMS would have severely reduced, if not completely nullified that stream of LRMs - A minimum of a 3-ton investment).

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Yeah, with any AC weapon you actually have to aim, lead targets and... be in danger! LRM boats have none of those issues.

By "aim" you mean "hold crosshair over red box", by "lead" you mean "hold crosshair over red box", and by "be in danager" you mean "anywhere in the map"? I completely agree.

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Anything that can lock on takes zero skill. Lock on means you just have to pull the trigger. I don't know what world you live on but there is no skill in sitting on top of a hill and spamming the left mouse button. It may take planning to find a good spot but that's with any weapon.

Anything that fires bullets at 1000m/s+ takes zero skill. Fast bullets means you just have to pull the trigger. I don't know what world you live on but there is no skill in matching up boxes, and spamming the left mouse button. It may take planning to find a good spot but that's with any weapon.

I can do it too, jerk-wad.

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I have no idea. All I know is after I was done recording, I ran down and got my hands dirty.

So, for all you know, those LRMs may have impacted on the side of a mountain/hill (or just beside his target, or been shot out of the air by AMS, or any of the other 50 things that can stop an LRM volley), and have done zero damage.

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Bottom line, LRM spam needs to generate a lot more heat for controlled firing. This way they have to think before firing and actually worry about overheating. It needs to generate heat like throwing on 3x AC/2s and holding down the trigger.

LRM spam wouldn't happen (okay, it still would, but to an overall lesser extent) if they were any ********* use outside of large masses or never-ending streams.

[wintersborn]

Shockwave will not listen even though he has never played a LRM boat or a AC boat it seems.

We will say it again Shockwave LRM's are not no skill or OP in any way, just deal with it man.

[Johnny Reb]

I think its more tactical skill to being an effective lrm boat. Staying and knowing where help is, knowing where to get and if you have good angles for the lrms both you and where the target is, and knowing reposition due to the circumstances. Out fitting your lrm boat is a must but that is more a strat area.

[Kuritaclan]

wintersborn, on 09 October 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

LRM's are not no skill or OP in any way, just deal with it man.

Since the opposite is also true, stop claiming LRMs are UP, just deal with it.

[Shockwave144]

wintersborn, on 09 October 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

Shockwave will not listen even though he has never played a LRM boat or a AC boat it seems.

Seems? You know what they say about assuming. Either way, your case is weak if that's all you have to go on.

wintersborn, on 09 October 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

We will say it again Shockwave LRM's are not no skill or OP in any way, just deal with it man.

Who's "we"? You keep talking with nothing to back up your remarks and I keep posting videos that prove you wrong. What you don't seem to understand is, I don't need you to admit it to me, I already know they require zero effort to use.

What cracks me up is you can look at the last video I posted and say, "that's pure skill right there." "Holding down the left mouse buttton is the real trick, not everyone can do it."

If I posted a video of myself boating LRMs, it would be the nail in the coffin for you. I was giving you a chance to reply with one of your own videos but it looks like that will never happen.

Edited by Shockwave144, 10 October 2013 - 12:39 AM.

[CravenMadness]

Sorry to say it, but his 'we' is pretty much everyone in this thread... If you hadn't noticed, there's pretty resounding weight in the 'LRM corner.' ... Also sorry to say it, but I think a video of you in an lrm anything would be hilarious to watch, especially if you posted all the filler matches you had to go through, to get a video that you think supports your claims through your own play instead of just looking at a painbow in the air and pointing 'Look how strong! I am right and you are wrong!' (hey it rhymed.) What are we going to see? Maybe a two or three hundred point match if you manage to spew some lrm five onto an assault in the middle of alpine or getting choice targets on crimson strait.

[Wolfways]

wintersborn, on 09 October 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

I think the easiest way to bring LRM's back is to speed up the flight time of the missiles.

At max and TAG range a salvo can take up to 10 seconds to hit. Standing in the open with LOS and targeting/Tagging a target for that long is almost suicide but this is the most effective way to use LRM's as a support boat.

Just wandering around in the back tossing random salvo's at other peoples targets is not effective or helpful for man, many reasons.

That's exactly why LRM's should be fire and forget.

[Wolfways]

Shockwave144, on 09 October 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

Where's the cooling off period? Every weapon has a cooldown whether it's a reloading mechanism or charge delay. Even if you try to boat lasers or ACs, they will overheat very quickly. However, LRMs can fire forever without worry.

AC5 generates 1 heat with a 1.50 cooldown and the LRM5 generates 2 heat with a 3.25 cooldown, so if chain firing both they are almost identical.

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Um, I just proved it takes zero skill. Where's your evidence? All you do is talk. Yeah, with any AC weapon you actually have to aim, lead targets and... be in danger! LRM boats have none of those issues.

I don't see that video proving anything, so you have as much evidence as anyone else.
You're right about not needing to aim as precise as with an AC, but i'd say that having to hold the reticule over the target for an extended period makes up for that. Please don't bring up leading targets. In MWO leading is practically nonexistent. If you want to see real leading go play a sniper in one of the Battlefield games.
As for being in danger, in your video that Catapult was taking incoming fire.

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Anything that can lock on takes zero skill. Lock on means you just have to pull the trigger.

I'd say it takes a different skill, not zero skill. With any weapon you just have to pull the trigger. The difference is that with a direct fire weapon you're pretty sure you will hit the target as it doesn't get a warning that you fired at it, have a piece of equipment that negates or reduces the effectiveness of your shot (ECM and AMS), and doesn't have time to move behind cover to avoid the shot.

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I don't know what world you live on but there is no skill in sitting on top of a hill and spamming the left mouse button. It may take planning to find a good spot but that's with any weapon.

As with any weapon.

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I have no idea. All I know is after I was done recording, I ran down and got my hands dirty.

That just sounds like you're saying that brawling should be the only playstyle in MWO.

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Bottom line, LRM spam needs to generate a lot more heat for controlled firing. This way they have to think before firing and actually worry about overheating. It needs to generate heat like throwing on 3x AC/2s and holding down the trigger.

Not sure why you're comparing an LRM5 with three AC2's. A better comparison is one AC5, and if you're chain firing AC5's you will not overheat.