230 replies to this topic

[wintersborn]

On testing grounds vs a AS7-D my 40 LRM alpha strike with direct line of sight (Artemis) and at 750M (TAG).

It took on average 7-7.5 seconds to hit a target for on average 6% damage on the first hit and took 7-8 salvo's to kill, that's 320 missiles. Every ***** knows that keeping line of sight for that long is almost suicide if you even can. Every ***** also knows that you take cover when you get the immediate warning of incoming missiles and there is a lot of cover in all maps. Hell even the slowest mech can find some cover in 7 seconds let alone break line of sight or move into ECM out of TAG range.

What other weapons have a flight time or DPS this slow, that needs TAG, Artemis, BAP etc. to even be somewhat effective?

They are gimped beyond reason period.
They need to reduce the flight time by HALF to start with.

[Kuritaclan]

wintersborn, on 30 September 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

On testing grounds vs a AS7-D my 40 LRM alpha strike with direct line of sight (Artemis) and at 750M (TAG).

It took on average 7-7.5 seconds to hit a target for on average 6% damage on the first hit and took 7-8 salvo's to kill, that's 320 missiles. Every ***** knows that keeping line of sight for that long is almost suicide if you even can.

Rockets are slow with a travel time of around 8sec for 810m (tested with LRM 5 launcher without advanced trackers like Artemis, Tag or Narc) is around 100m/s speed, I take down the Atlas in Cautic Valey with 180 rockets (without AMS it is disabled on TG). Maybee 40 rockets as a salvo have more spread as a single 5 LRM launcher.

testing on testing grounds Caustic Valley to take down the Atlas with an AC20 you need:

at 750m 55 rounds are needed with a cooldown at 4sec this equals up to a line of sight time 220 sec continuous fire. Disregarded that nobody would try to stand 220 sec in line of sight to an Atlas and aiming every shot in the Center torso, while running. It's the same problem a LRM user have.

at *540m 15 rounds are needed what is around 60 sec continuous fire.

at *270m 8 rounds are needed what is around 32 sec continuous fire.

A Battlemech who is running 100kph equals to 100/3,6=27,7m/s - in open field 1000m max range -180m min range makes LRM have a combat range of 820m. A mech who is directly running into the LRM Mech needs ~30sec to overcome the given distance. (and the LRM launcher isn't running backwards)

wintersborn, on 30 September 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

They are gimped beyond reason period.
They need to reduce the flight time by HALF to start with.

As soon as you power up LRM's in random groups and make them a tool to go 1vs1 they become to powerfull in a controlled situation with teamplay spoted targets and orders given in the group. There is a reason why LRM's arn't powerfull enough to make the usere 1vs1 annihilator.

LRMs are meant to be a indrect fire support. Tweaking the damage so people go eaven to other Mechs with other loadout and could face them 1vs1 makes Lrms to a death hail.

Maybee LRM's need a speed tweaks, and i see also a reasonable change in the warning to add this on specific equipment. But anything else like a damage add would set them over the top in my opinion as soon as LRM-boats stacked up. A lance of 4 HGN 733 fore example with 50 missles each and coordination plus a spoter have the power to take out an Atlas is only one combined Salvo. LRM's are powerfull in a certain terrain and in the right hands at the moment.

Some only see their own viewpoint. It is questionable if they are the ones should be listened by PGI.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 30 September 2013 - 07:53 PM.

[Kaijin]

I feel I must add that I don't want LRMs to be the proverbial 'I win' weapon. I want them to be relevant so they are used. LRMs are just as much a part of the Mechwarrior universe as PPCs are. I want to see them being used, and not just by cadets who've been stuck with them on substandard trial mechs, mostly firing them into hillsides.

edit: No offense, cadets. It's not your fault you've been thrown into battle with insufficient training.

Edited by Kaijin, 30 September 2013 - 09:12 PM.

[Wolfways]

Kaijin, on 30 September 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

I feel I must add that I don't want LRMs to be the proverbial 'I win' weapon. I want them to be relevant so they are used. LRMs are just as much a part of the Mechwarrior universe as PPCs are. I want to see them being used, and not just by cadets who've been stuck with them on substandard trial mechs, mostly firing them into hillsides.

edit: No offense, cadets. It's not your fault you've been thrown into battle with insufficient training.

Two of the most wanted Clan mechs are the Timberwolf and Mad Dog, both of which have LRM's in their Prime variant. I bet nearly all of them are removed before the first match the mechs are used in

[Johnny Reb]

Heh, if sesmec only works not moving talk about a lrm boat boon!

[Wolfways]

Johnny Reb, on 30 September 2013 - 09:26 PM, said:

Heh, if sesmec only works not moving talk about a lrm boat boon!

I'd rather be able to use LRM's effectively for direct fire than sit around waiting for teammates to get locks which is extremely boring imo. As far as i know no other MW game made LRM's an "indirect fire weapon". They just have that ability.
Although, i think the amount of cover on the majority of maps, plus the slow flight speed, is one of the biggest problems with direct fire.
Even when using my Catapult i'm constantly on the move. Sitting at the back means death by lights.

[AC]

Tincan Nightmare, on 28 September 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

The biggest problem with LRM's is the indirect fire ability. Back in closed beta there was a time when it turned into trench warfare, with both teams running with large numbers of LRM's and just waiting for that red box to appear on a target. This led to numerous 'fixes' and is what caused the current state of affairs with ECM (at least in my opinion). Even now, sometimes in a PUG match you will see a team catch someone outside of ECM and just rain a shower of LRM's on them. Making it so that you can only lock and fire LRM's if the target is in your line of sight (or a teammate is targeting them with TAG or NARC) would allow more options to enhance LRM's so they are a better (and more used) weapon, such as increasing speed, allowing them to lock on regardless of ECM, and making them fire and forget (though maybe requiring a new lock after each shot). Any changes to make LRM's more powerful while maintaining indirect fire ability, however, will make people run around screaming its OP and/or that the sky (in game) is falling.

I agree... it isn't the LRM's themselves that lead to the broken-ness, it is the indirect fire that leads to the hard counters. Letting any mech spot for indirect fire means that 3-4 LRM boats can rain down on a mech that is outside the ECM bubble. Not to mention how ECM functions currently. If this wasn't possible, then LRM's could be buffed to decent levels.

I also suggested back in closed beta that requiring a mech to TAG or NARC to get indirect LRM fire would provide an actuall role for light and mediums mechs. Plus it would require them to actually perform a skill rather than just look at a mech. Plus getting a narc on someone then running away would be quite useful as well and might bring the Narc off the shelf as opposed to the TAG being dominant.

[wintersborn]

I find it amusing that people think that a light mech with TAG and a LRM boat will decimate the opposing team.

Honestly put TAG in your light and run into the other team by yourself and stand in line of sight with the laser pointer on a mech and see how fast you die. Remember it needs to be constantly painted with TAG for 7-10 seconds of flight time for just 1 salvo.

So you can see why no one commits suicide to help out another PUG'er get a few more points of damage.

Anyone who has given a true LRM boat a fair try knows that you NEED to TAG yourself and that means you will take more damage than you give, due to how TAG/Artemis work and the very slow flight time.

Just way to much time in open line of sight to even make them viable, that's why POP Tarting/Sniping is the prevailing tactic.

Edited by wintersborn, 01 October 2013 - 03:55 PM.

[Shockwave144]

Wolfways, on 30 September 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

The idea was to increase the effectiveness of direct fire and reduce the amount of indirect fire, as it seems to be indirect fire that bothers people the most.

Cowering behind cover 800m away and launching a barrage of unending rocket spam is a cheap tactic and shouldn't be this devastating. All you have to do is push a button, that's it.

Wolfways, on 30 September 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

I don't remember ever seeing someone say they think LRM's are OP because they went head to head with a Catapult and were instantly destroyed by LRM spam

If you are out in the open on a snow map and are more than 400m away, you will get decimated. I don't care how good you are.

Even LRM stands for Long Range Missiles yet they can be fired as close as 180m? Whose bright idea was that?

Ways to reduce indirect fire:

• Longer cooldown
  
• Minimum range 500m+
  
• Generates much more heat
  
• Rocket tracking gets worse over distance
  
• Rockets break apart the second you loose lock
  
• Locking time takes longer the further away you are
  
• More than one person needs to have a visual of the target
  
• Can't fire more than 5 groups at a time without overheating
  
• LRMs have to be manually guided (so there is some skill involved)

We could go the other way as well:

• More powerful AMS
  
• Introduce new AMS type weapons
  
• Add new armor to the game for higher resistance to rocket spam

Edited by Shockwave144, 02 October 2013 - 01:28 AM.

[Wolfways]

Shockwave144, on 02 October 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

Cowering behind cover 800m away and launching a barrage of unending rocket spam is a cheap tactic and shouldn't be this devastating. All you have to do is push a button, that's it.

Well i don't personally like that playstyle, but it's not really hard to avoid indirect fire by using cover, and it's a little more complicated than pushing a button, unlike direct fire weapons.

Quote

If you are out in the open on a snow map and are more than 400m away, you will get decimated. I don't care how good you are.

lol well if you're out in the open you'll get decimated by any massed fire with direct fire weapons that can reach you and have LoS. If it's a single LRM, even an LRM20, it actually won't do much damage as not all missiles hit and it has a slow RoF.

Quote

Even LRM stands for Long Range Missiles yet they can be fired as close as 180m? Whose bright idea was that?

The 180m minimum range was added to give them a drawback. They are completely useless in close range fights.
If you think that range is too long you'll love Clan LRM's when they come. They have no minimum range

Quote

Ways to reduce indirect fire:

• Longer cooldown
  
• Minimum range 500m+
  
• Generates much more heat
  
• Rocket tracking gets worse over distance
  
• Rockets break apart the second you loose lock
  
• Locking time takes longer the further away you are
  
• More than one person needs to have a visual of the target
  
• Can't fire more than 5 groups at a time without overheating
  
• LRMs have to be manually guided (so there is some skill involved)

We could go the other way as well:

• More powerful AMS
  
• Introduce new AMS type weapons
  
• Add new armor to the game for higher resistance to rocket spam

So completely nerf them to total uselessness (not that they haven't been already) and don't buff anything? No.
The point of this thread is to find a balance, not to remove them from the game because it's fairly easy to only kill bad players.

[Joseph Mallan]

Shockwave144, on 02 October 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

Cowering behind cover 800m away and launching a barrage of unending rocket spam is a cheap tactic and shouldn't be this devastating. All you have to do is push a button, that's it.

You don't know combat very well do you? The killing o your enemy with least risk is the better choice for a soldier. Specially if you are a Soldier of Fortune ™. Hiding behind Cover and shooting the enemy from relative safety is a Infantryman's main goal.

To paraphrase Patton, "Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack."

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 02 October 2013 - 03:34 AM.

[Shockwave144]

Wolfways, on 02 October 2013 - 02:29 AM, said:

Well i don't personally like that playstyle, but it's not really hard to avoid indirect fire by using cover, and it's a little more complicated than pushing a button, unlike direct fire weapons.

If you have cover to use, then that goes for anything. If you are trying to cross some water and the LRMs start raining, kiss your metal *** goodbye. And no, it is just pushing a button while your team does all the work to acquire the target. What, were you referring to the extremely difficult time of locking on? Poor LRM boats.

Wolfways, on 02 October 2013 - 02:29 AM, said:

lol well if you're out in the open you'll get decimated by any massed fire with direct fire weapons that can reach you and have LoS. If it's a single LRM, even an LRM20, it actually won't do much damage as not all missiles hit and it has a slow RoF.

I'm talking about the guys that set up multiple LRM5s and shoot them all day without a break.

Single LRMs I could care less about. It's the waterfall of LRM spam that are ruining this game for me.

Wolfways, on 02 October 2013 - 02:29 AM, said:

The 180m minimum range was added to give them a drawback. They are completely useless in close range fights.
If you think that range is too long you'll love Clan LRM's when they come. They have no minimum range

Again, that's just horrible game mechanics. Hey, if they want me to spend my money on anything else other than this game then they should continue down this road. It's F2P so no skin off my back if I leave.

Wolfways, on 02 October 2013 - 02:29 AM, said:

So completely nerf them to total uselessness (not that they haven't been already) and don't buff anything? No.

Exactly what area do they need buffing in? How about they make it where it auto-locks and auto-fires for you. I mean it does everything else...

Wolfways, on 02 October 2013 - 02:29 AM, said:

The point of this thread is to find a balance, not to remove them from the game because it's fairly easy to only kill bad players.

I know what the point of this thread is, you just misread what I wrote. I never said to implement all of the options. I said they are different ways to do it. Pick and choose the best idea(s).

[CravenMadness]

Shockwave, however well articulated and set up your posts are, you are a grade A fool, with either little experience in the game all together, or you are hiding in your shell being intentionally obtuse about the topic at hand. Your commentary on your experiences with lrms is amusing.

Someone getting hit by the pain-bow? Awww poor baby...
Someone forgot their Lurm-brella? Awww poor baby...
Someone walking in plain sight expecting not to get seen by one of twelve enemy mechs in a match? Awww poor baby...


Oh, and lrms -are- manually guided, as in you have to keep the target locked and crosshairs painted to have a chance of hitting with one shot over the course of ten seconds.
When firing more than two 'racks' of lrms, they only come out in the number of tubes you have available: so "•Can't fire more than 5 groups at a time without overheating" is already accounted for, and ghost heat kicks in if you fire more than two of -any- lrm weapon rack so extra negatives there.
They also have the longest travel time, even at minimum distance of 180 meters, than any other weapons system in the game -and- have a three second or so recycle time which makes their 'fire to hit target time' longer than anything in the game let alone trying to score more than one hit in succession.
If more than one person had to have visual on the target, not even the lrm boat could target for itself and it is already necessary to drop in a lance to get -anyone- to consider locking onto targets for you since everything the meta-gamers use is direct fire with weapons' falloff that fires faster and further than lrms.
Missiles -do- turn to dummy fire as soon as you lose lock of crosshairs on highlighted target and will smash into the rocks at the last known location. Not the lrm shooter's fault if the target happens to just move out of los barely and then gets caught by residual splash which is likely equiv to 1/15th the total damage that could have been dealt.

[Ozric]

Shockwave144, on 02 October 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

/snip for the good of everyone.

So who's trollish smurf account is this?

[Wolfways]

Shockwave144, on 02 October 2013 - 03:53 AM, said:

I'm talking about the guys that set up multiple LRM5s and shoot them all day without a break.

That's the only part of your post that i'd agree with. While multiple LRM5's do little damage it is more concentrated on the centre torso, and the shake is annoying as hell. But it seems to be one of the few weapons that PGi isn't trying to stop being boated...yet.

[Shockwave144]

Ozric, on 02 October 2013 - 05:31 AM, said:

So who's trollish smurf account is this?

The troll card. How original...

[Shockwave144]

CravenMadness, on 02 October 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

Shockwave, however well articulated and set up your posts are, you are a grade A fool, with either little experience in the game all together, or you are hiding in your shell being intentionally obtuse about the topic at hand. Your commentary on your experiences with lrms is amusing.

No matter how big, it always comes down to name calling.

CravenMadness, on 02 October 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

Oh, and lrms -are- manually guided, as in you have to keep the target locked and crosshairs painted to have a chance of hitting with one shot over the course of ten seconds.

I know how LRMs work and that's not manually guided. Not even close. You just have to look in the general area of an enemy that is targeted and they hit. If they were truly manually guided players would be over and undershooting a lot more. In other words, skill.

CravenMadness, on 02 October 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

When firing more than two 'racks' of lrms, they only come out in the number of tubes you have available: so "•Can't fire more than 5 groups at a time without overheating" is already accounted for, and ghost heat kicks in if you fire more than two of -any- lrm weapon rack so extra negatives there.

Don't know what game you've been playing but catapults can launch LRMs until they run dry or their finger gets tired.

CravenMadness, on 02 October 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

They also have the longest travel time, even at minimum distance of 180 meters, than any other weapons system in the game

So what? What part of fire and forget don't you understand? You're doing like 2% of the work and you're complaining about travel time? Give me a break.

CravenMadness, on 02 October 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

have a three second or so recycle time which makes their 'fire to hit target time' longer than anything in the game let alone trying to score more than one hit in succession.

I'm talking about the LRM5s which never stop shooting. Try to keep up.

CravenMadness, on 02 October 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

If more than one person had to have visual on the target, not even the lrm boat could target for itself and it is already necessary to drop in a lance to get -anyone- to consider locking onto targets for you since everything the meta-gamers use is direct fire with weapons' falloff that fires faster and further than lrms.

I could care less what you thought of my suggestions. They were for the devs' benefit if they decide to change LRMs. Sorry but they don't need your stamp of approval.

CravenMadness, on 02 October 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

Missiles -do- turn to dummy fire as soon as you lose lock of crosshairs on highlighted target and will smash into the rocks at the last known location. Not the lrm shooter's fault if the target happens to just move out of los barely and then gets caught by residual splash which is likely equiv to 1/15th the total damage that could have been dealt.

I've been hit by missiles that have been meant for someone else. They do not do 1/15th damage.

Edited by Shockwave144, 02 October 2013 - 06:21 AM.

[Ozric]

Shockwave144, on 02 October 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

The troll card. How original...

The troll card was a complement you know.

If this is not the case, and the opinions and ideas you have expressed about LRMS are things you really think, then it makes you look even more foolish. Pretty much everything you said is not only wrong, but also shows your lack of experience with the game in general. You should not really be making posts about things until you know what you are talking about.

However, the LRM5 spam seems to be the thing that most gets your ire, and this is quite understandable. The cockpit shake can be tough to get used to, it may even be a bit much, but believe me when I say that the spam you are experiencing now is nothing compared to the black screen earthquakes that LRMs used to bring.

The solution is the same however, change the way you think about positioning on the battlefield and avoid the missiles in the first place. I can't tell you exactly what you need to change about your playstyle, but as you have not got to grips with the lurms yet I would suggest that something somewhere does need to change. Good luck out there. Don't forget your AMS.

[Sybreed]

I agree with several points:

Indirect fire only through NARC/TAG/UAV?

Direct fire can acquire lock and missiles seek targets

Damage is more spread on the target, less CT seeking

ECM doesn't prevent lock in direct fire mode, but does prevent indirect fire.

Overall damage is a little bit higher, but longer CD. Would make it less necessary to stack ammo like squirrels.

Edited by Sybreed, 02 October 2013 - 07:33 AM.

[Wolfways]

Shockwave144, on 02 October 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

What part of fire and forget don't you understand?

I'm not sure you know what fire and forget means. LRM's in MWO are not fire and forget (they used to be but were changed according to players who were in CB before me), they are guided i.e. you have to keep the reticule on the target for the whole missile flight time.