123 replies to this topic

[RandomLurker]

MustrumRidcully, on 01 October 2013 - 11:29 PM, said:

Are you sure you're n ot just projecting your preferences here?

You think, like me, that option 3 is how things should be. So you presume that people just jump on a bandwagon without reflection. But maybe they actually adopt this because it honestly works better, and their opinion is born out of experience?

How would you tell the difference?

Of course their opinion is based on experience. What I'm suggesting is that their experience is limited by the sniping meta (and possibly arm lock being the default). However, the complete lack of votes for 'articulated is best' is extremely significant.

Consider:
-Articulated arms have value, extremely much so in certain builds. This is demonstrable.
-High mounted, inarticulate arms also have value. This is not in question by anyone.
:1: Conclusion- the best option depends on role, build, and playstyle.
-Corollary to :1: - personal experience indicating that either or both options are effective is sound.
-The current meta favors a tactic that benefits from high mounted arms.
-The benefits of articulated are not obvious to anyone that fails to deviate from the meta.
:2: Conclusion- Those who conform to the meta will not experience the value of articulation.
-Corrollary to :2: - only those who do not conform to the meta at least some of the time will experience the value of articulation.
-Generally, those who are non-conformist will try out multiple ideas and evaluate them all.
:3: Conclusion: Those who recognize the value of articulation are not conformist.
:4: Conclusion: Those who recognize the value of articulation will also experience the value of high-mounted arms.
:5: Conclusion: Those who do not recognize the value of articulation may be either conformist, or have not experienced the value of articulation for other reasons.

Thus, we have our explanation.

ps. Enough formal logic for one day. I find it amusing, but I'm sure it will only annoy everyone else. Oh well. Such is the price for my entertainment.

Edited by RandomLurker, 02 October 2013 - 12:05 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

I suspect most people understand the value of having a wider firing arc and the ability to track fast moving targets.

The problem really is that the current game makes this not a priority thing to have.

I think that is ultimately a balance problem. Articulated arms are weaker than high mounted arms because the benefits from high mounted arms matter more than the benefits of articulated arms. If that wasn't so, then players that use articulated arms would be able to exploit their advantage to counter high mounted arms, and it would be a hence & forth between them in the game. But the high mounted arms dominate.

The advantage might not even need to be all that big. It's just enough to become visible and making it safer to go for high mounted arms.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

With the excellent arm movement on my Hunchies it works very well when using them as fast flankers. this assumes that you are using the 2 arm energy slots for major weapons ie PPCs or LLs. If you go ballistic (torso) heavy then they are still useful against light mechs. With the high torso ballistic mount you have the best of both worlds. Voted situational.
Those who voted 1 probably have a singular playstyle based on a few mechs that favours that type of build, as can be borne out by the number seen in matches.
The Boars Head could have benefitted from a better arm movement given the hardpoints.

[Raso]

You know what's great? Playing as a dual AC10 Jager and chasing a Cataphract 4X around a rock about as tall as a Jenner. You can shoot at them but they can't shoot at you. Now a Cataphract with some Large Lasers or PPCs mounted in the side torsos become a whole different matter for obvious reasons (in case it's not obvious it's because suddenly your foe can return fire).

When cover static and speed is less important arm height is a blessing. When cover is more temporary as you move from position to position and there is ample room to maneuver and you have the speed to do so lateral arm articulation is much more valuable.

[Mycrus]

Raso, on 02 October 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

You know what's great? Playing as a dual AC10 Jager and chasing a Cataphract 4X around a rock about as tall as a Jenner. You can shoot at them but they can't shoot at you. Now a Cataphract with some Large Lasers or PPCs mounted in the side torsos become a whole different matter for obvious reasons (in case it's not obvious it's because suddenly your foe can return fire).

When cover static and speed is less important arm height is a blessing. When cover is more temporary as you move from position to position and there is ample room to maneuver and you have the speed to do so lateral arm articulation is much more valuable.

Pictures or didn't happen...

I struggle to find this mythical rock in the old maps... Is it on the new one?

[Raso]

Mycrus, on 02 October 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Pictures or didn't happen...

I struggle to find this mythical rock in the old maps... Is it on the new one?

It was on Canyon Network. Somewhere towards the middle on one of the lower sections. I could return fire but he couldn't (not for trying, though). He just kept running around it trying to catch me. Changed directions a few times, too, but I was able to stay on top of him.

I could tell, just by the rock's height, though, that the Phract's side mounted torso lasers would have cleared the rock with minimal problems, though. Granted, a few of my shots DID actually clip the top of the rock's geo. I mean the game was still in beta, after all (lol)

[Kaspirikay]

Who doesn;'t love being able to shoot from cover

[Raso]

Kaspirikay, on 02 October 2013 - 06:56 PM, said:

Who doesn;'t love being able to shoot from cover

Kaspirikay, on 02 October 2013 - 06:56 PM, said:

Who doesn;'t love being able to shoot from cover

I'll be honest. I love my Jager but there are times I miss being able to hit things slightly to my left and right. That's why I got a Victor, though!

[Kaspirikay]

Raso, on 02 October 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

I'll be honest. I love my Jager but there are times I miss being able to hit things slightly to my left and right. That's why I got a Victor, though!

True, but nothing a bit of good ol torso twist can't solve!

[Mycrus]

Raso, on 02 October 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

It was on Canyon Network. Somewhere towards the middle on one of the lower sections. I could return fire but he couldn't (not for trying, though). He just kept running around it trying to catch me. Changed directions a few times, too, but I was able to stay on top of him.

I could tell, just by the rock's height, though, that the Phract's side mounted torso lasers would have cleared the rock with minimal problems, though. Granted, a few of my shots DID actually clip the top of the rock's geo. I mean the game was still in beta, after all (lol)

More good piloting vs bad piloting... 4x is slow being capped at 255 engines... He should have back pedaled and found more suitable terrain..

[Grey Ghost]

MustrumRidcully, on 01 October 2013 - 10:26 PM, said:

I like the idea of articulated arms being able to change the position so you can raise the arm. That sounds reasonable game balance wise, since you pay for that actuator, after all. The problem might be that you both need a new control element to switch this around, and all existing mech models would need to be changed to support this.

We'd all be walking our Mechs around looking like Frankenstein's Monster if we controlled it. I'd rather the arms automatically, and independently, tried their best to match their LoS (Line of Sight) with the Pilots LoS (3pv exempt). This way the arms would usually stay in their standard position, but adjust when blocked by terrain etcetera.

Edited by Grey Ghost, 02 October 2013 - 10:34 PM.

[King Arthur IV]

depending on the role and what kind of combat you engage in each has its own merit.

generally high mounts are much easier to play because you sit back and just click one button. Arm mounted weapons are more skill based, you have to work for that kill if your circling someone but it pays off if you know how.

[Snowcrow]

stjobe, on 29 September 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

Yeah, the pilot efficiencies really need a reworking. Not only do we have two that do absolutely nothing, but many of them are borderline OP; heat efficiencies, speed tweak, twist rates; all these are supposed to be balancing factors for 'mechs, and the efficiencies negate those balancing factors very effectively.

A thousand times this!

[MisterPlanetarian]

For slow movers : High mounted arms


Fast movers: Articulated arms. Especially for lights and medium mechs with Streaks as their core builds. The Kintaro and Trebuchet being obvious examples.

[MeiSooHaityu]

It's probably a bit of a sliding scale. The heavier (and more clumsier the mech), the nicer articulated arms become. I don't miss arm articulation much when the mech is quick and manuverable.

Still, the Cataphract is a "knuckle dragger" and if there is even an ant hill in front of you, the shots don't clear.

I suppose it depends on the mech.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Most of the time I prefer high mounted weapon, they are much safer and easier to use.

Articulated arms on the other hand really only beneift Lasers, and only when you need to maintain targeting for an extended period. For instance you can circle an opponent while only exposing your sides (otherwise you would have to face your oppoent for the duration of the beam)., or darting through a city intercection and being able to mainting fire on the enemy without haveing to slow down. Of course all of those situations can be avoided by using projectile weapons.

[Raso]

Mycrus, on 02 October 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:

More good piloting vs bad piloting... 4x is slow being capped at 255 engines... He should have back pedaled and found more suitable terrain..

True, but it's also an example that exemplifies the advantage in a bit of a microcosm. If you're fighting along a ridge line and they can't adequately fall back (obstructions or something) you can open fire before they can return fire and increase the size of that window by using the terrain to your advantage. At the same time with a faster Heavy, or even an medium, were a Jager drawn out into the open you have slower torso twist and no lateral arm movement so the fully articulated arms have the advantage (though I could shoot over the heads of any friendly lights that come to my aid).

It also doesn't make our little dance any less funny. I really wish I had fraps, or something.

[MustrumRidcully]

Grey Ghost, on 02 October 2013 - 10:34 PM, said:

We'd all be walking our Mechs around looking like Frankenstein's Monster if we controlled it. I'd rather the arms automatically, and independently, tried their best to match their LoS (Line of Sight) with the Pilots LoS (3pv exempt). This way the arms would usually stay in their standard position, but adjust when blocked by terrain etcetera.

That's an interesting idea. Not sure if it's easier, but it might be less ugly.

Though it might also depend on what is raised when the arms are raised. You could either straighten the arms, or you can have the still bent arms raise at the shoulder*. That would also make the mech a lot wider (though who shoots for the arms, anyway?) while the arms are raised.

[Perigrinial]

With high mounted arms you can 'hull down' behind cover and basically drive your mech more like a tank. The humanoid mechs have to expose more of their torso to enemy fire to get shots off. Low slung arms are the worst (cataphract), you basically expose everything but the legs to shoot.

[Grey Ghost]

MustrumRidcully, on 04 October 2013 - 12:23 AM, said:

That's an interesting idea. Not sure if it's easier, but it might be less ugly.

Though it might also depend on what is raised when the arms are raised. You could either straighten the arms, or you can have the still bent arms raise at the shoulder*. That would also make the mech a lot wider (though who shoots for the arms, anyway?) while the arms are raised.

I vote for straighten out, or a hybrid of both. Whatever looks more natural.

EDIT: The more actuators in your arm, the better this should perform. A Victor VTR-9B for example doesn't have a lower actuator in it's right arm, so the most it would be able to do is raise a bit at the shoulder like you said.

Edited by Grey Ghost, 05 October 2013 - 12:45 PM.