10417 replies to this topic

[TheCaptainJZ]

Dave Korhal, on 26 January 2016 - 04:22 PM, said:

Is there any advantage to using Single Heat Sinks over Double Heat Sinks? Since the Doubling affects all Heat Sinks in the engine, too, I can't imagine many builds where you would still save space with Single Heat Sinks.

Very few. But also realize that double heat sinks don't all dissipate at 2x. Only up to the first 10 if they are included in the engine. All external or additional ones in the engine dissipate at 1.5x now, if I'm not mistaken.

[Tesunie]

Dave Korhal, on 26 January 2016 - 04:22 PM, said:

Is there any advantage to using Single Heat Sinks over Double Heat Sinks? Since the Doubling affects all Heat Sinks in the engine, too, I can't imagine many builds where you would still save space with Single Heat Sinks.

As TheCaptain said (he is a Captain after all), very few builds can take advantage of SHS, and these are primarily dual Gauss (or single Gauss for lighter mechs) and a few light mech builds (such as some specific Commandos) due to crit space.

Otherwise, TheCaptain is spot on as far as I know.

[Void Angel]

Reno Blade, on 26 January 2016 - 11:44 AM, said:

Don't worry Tesunie, I was just trying to find the best info about crits too.

Sadly the post of players don't go further than a year or so, so looking for posts by Paul or other Devs on their profile didn't result in any findings.

I found this from David Bradley from 2012 about laser crits:
https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__1475312

I found something about the 15% crit damage in "Patch Notes - 1.2.235 - 06-Aug-2013" here:
https://mwomercs.com...35-06-aug-2013/

So this requires me to correct my previous post about the actual damage of the crit and not the base damage.
Means that mentioned Gauss would not do 15% of the full 15 damage, but only of the 10 damage it requires to crit the Medium laser in my example, right?

Seems like - my understanding was that the extra structure damage was simply whatever damage was done - so for example, if you hit someone for three crits with an AC/20, you get 45% extra structure damage. The quote contradicts that, however, so you are throttled by the equipment's health. Interestingly, .this means that components without anything in them are immune to this extra damage.

Edited by Void Angel, 26 January 2016 - 05:17 PM.

[Tim East]

Tesunie, on 26 January 2016 - 05:02 PM, said:

As TheCaptain said (he is a Captain after all), very few builds can take advantage of SHS, and these are primarily dual Gauss (or single Gauss for lighter mechs) and a few light mech builds (such as some specific Commandos) due to crit space.

Otherwise, TheCaptain is spot on as far as I know.

Challenge accepted.

[Tesunie]

Tim East, on 26 January 2016 - 05:59 PM, said:

Challenge accepted.

By all means.

I have a Cicada that doesn't need DHS. (I need to update that link... I have since built it on the 3M with ECM... and 2 MLs.)

[Tim East]

Tesunie, on 26 January 2016 - 06:23 PM, said:

By all means.

I have a Cicada that doesn't need DHS. (I need to update that link... I have since built it on the 3M with ECM... and 2 MLs.)

Moderate success with this.

ZEU-6S

I don't usually drive assaults, so I'm not used to being this sluggish, but I used a basic'd Zeus and 3 LPL to surprising effect over the past couple hours. Won more than lost, and only overheated once, on Terra Therma, near the end of the match in the middle of a delightfully intense brawl with a Hellbringer. I know the Zeus probably isn't the best chassis to test this on, but it was my only assault with SHS still equipped.

If you're willing to devote the tonnage to them, SHS can be not only viable, but pretty good. On the other hand, I sacrificed both weapons and speed for staying power there. It really comes down to critical efficiency vs tonnage efficiency, with heat efficiency as a third factor worthy of consideration. You know, and the XL vs Standard engine argument is even more important, since engine heatsinks are true doubles unless they went and changed that.

I think what it boils down to is that if you're going to only use engine heatsinks, doubles are flat-out better. If you're going to use no more heatsinks than will fit into your extra slots for big engines, doubles are better. If you need more cooling than 14 external DHS are giving you though... Let's see...smurfy says maximum possible (Boar's Head, 400 STD+ 18 DHS) capacity/cooling for DHS is 77/4.52, 92.4/5.2 after elites. SHS maxes (Boar's Head again, 350 STD + 50 SHS) out at 110/7.1 and 132/8.16 after elites, though it's not practical to drive it that high.

One final exercise: 23 external SHS gives (almost) the same value as 14 external DHS, for 9 more tons, and 7 fewer slots. Pretty near anywhere after this point it's better to use SHS, because you flat-out run out of 3 slot spaces for DHS.

[Tesunie]

Tim East, on 26 January 2016 - 08:50 PM, said:

Moderate success with this.

ZEU-6S

I think the challenge was to build a mech design that could use SHS as effectively as DHS. Though I get your argument/point here, for their tonnage investment you are almost always better taking DHS with an engine that can contain 10 internal sinks, than you are taking that same cooling efficiency to tonnage with SHS. (AKA: An engine with 10 internal sinks, and then 10 tons of additional sinks on top of that.)

But, still some designs don't "benefit" from DHS as much as the price to convert them is. Sure, my 2 ML and Gauss Cicada can "benefit" from DHS, but realistically, by the time my mech is overheating, I've been shooting more than long enough to probably be dead or be fighting an opponent who is completely ignoring me (for like 5 minutes).

Edited by Tesunie, 26 January 2016 - 09:12 PM.

[Ingga Raokai]

Tim East, on 26 January 2016 - 05:59 PM, said:

Challenge accepted.

Tesunie, on 26 January 2016 - 06:23 PM, said:

By all means. I have a Cicada that ...

Tim East, on 26 January 2016 - 08:50 PM, said:

Moderate success with this. ZEU-6S I don't usually ...

Tesunie, on 26 January 2016 - 09:12 PM, said:

I think the challenge was to ...

Speaking SHS build, I have always been tempted to do this Awesome SHS, just mechbay problem.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ff6090e3c06eb00
OR
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...162c7e78d02ef6a

One of the two.

[Tesunie]

Ingga Raokai, on 26 January 2016 - 09:30 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...162c7e78d02ef6a

One of the two.

Second one would be the better from what I can gather from a quick glance. However, only do as a funzy build. It probably won't be very serious, but could be fun to do. (But then expect to be called crazy, like me.)

[IraqiWalker]

Dave Korhal, on 26 January 2016 - 04:22 PM, said:

Is there any advantage to using Single Heat Sinks over Double Heat Sinks? Since the Doubling affects all Heat Sinks in the engine, too, I can't imagine many builds where you would still save space with Single Heat Sinks.

There are about 6 builds that I can count off the top of my head that would be better with SHS, instead of DHS. Rule of thumb is if you're not running a gauss only, or MG only build, you're probably gonna be using DHS.
============================================================================
Now as far as crits go:

Here is what I do know about crits:

When a weapon crits, there are two damage rolls happening:

(An AC 10 will be used as an example, fired within it's OPTIMAL range)

1- A component is selected to receive the critical damage, and a roll is made for the multiplier ( 1x, 2x or 3x)

So let's say the selection landed on the AC 20 in your Right Torso, and let's say you got lucky, and you rolled 3x. The AC 20 (not the Right Torso), will receive 30 damage. Which is enough to kill it outright. That weapon is gone.


2- The section itself receives the damage from the weapon (10 + 15%). So that's 11.5 damage to the RT from an AC 10 shot.

---

Now if you were firing past optimal range, the formula still holds, let's say your round was at the range where it caused 8 damage base, add 15% of that, that's the total damage the section received. If you rolled 3x damage, that's 24 damage to that unlucky AC 20.

---

That's how crits are resolved in this game, and as far as I know, the devs have not changed how they work.


This is also why the AC 10 is actually superior to the LB-10X at critting, even though the LBX is supposed to be the better weapon for destroying components. Because if the AC 10 crits, at even 1x, it will wreck, or possibly kill a component. While an LBX will need to land all 10 pellets at one section, and hope each one rolls high on the crit table, and they all crit the exact same component for them to have any hope of killing a component.

Bear in mind though, the LBX pellets actually crit at double damage, so their multipliers are (2x, 4x, and 6x), per pellet, and they still suck at crit seeking compared to an AC 10.

---

This is also why barring a crit, or previous extensive damage, twin Gauss can't kill you in the head if you have 16 armor. If even one GR crits, you're virtually dead though anyways [15 + (15 x 0.15) = 17.25 + 15 = 32.25 Your total head HP with max armor is 33].

Considering most dual Gauss assaults will have at least one laser hitting the same location as the GRs, a single crit is enough to kill you regardless of armor. It's why I usually run my mechs with 16 armor on cockpit, rather than shave 1 point off each leg or each arm. (for most mechs, when you upgrade to Endo, and without Ferro, you'll end up 2 armor points shy of a half ton)

---

I hope that cleared things up.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 27 January 2016 - 01:20 AM.

[Irishtoker]

Reading a few pages here usually teaches me quite a bit, and solves any questions I may have come with.

Cheers.

[Dave Korhal]

Is there any advantage to the ULTRA AC/5 over the AC/5? It looks like they currently have nearly the same stats, except the ULTRA has less range and has a chance of jamming.

[Digital_Angel]

Dave Korhal, on 27 January 2016 - 09:44 AM, said:

Is there any advantage to the ULTRA AC/5 over the AC/5? It looks like they currently have nearly the same stats, except the ULTRA has less range and has a chance of jamming.

UACs only have a chance of jamming when you double tap them. What do i mean by "double tap", you can fire UACs a second time during their cool down cycle (for twice the rate of fire), but if you do there is a chance they will jam for a short period of time before they can be refired at all.

Someone did a test a month or so ago, and even with the chance of a jam, the only UAC that didn't have a significantly better DPS than the standard AC of the same size was the AC2 (the UAC 2 actually had lower DPS once you factored in jams because the AC2 already has such a fast refire rate).

[Tesunie]

Dave Korhal, on 27 January 2016 - 09:44 AM, said:

Is there any advantage to the ULTRA AC/5 over the AC/5? It looks like they currently have nearly the same stats, except the ULTRA has less range and has a chance of jamming.

The UAC5 has a double tap feature. If you press the button faster than it's reload time, it can shoot another shoot between official cooldowns. However, when you do you incur a chance that the extra shot will jam the gun for a short while.

Overall, it's normally better to take the UAC5 over the AC5 for the sake of DPS.

[Tim East]

Tesunie, on 27 January 2016 - 09:50 AM, said:

Overall, it's normally better to take the UAC5 over the AC5 for the sake of DPS.

Caveat: crit slots permitting. Tonnage isn't usually an issue, but there are several arms where you can fit 2 AC 5's, but not ultras.

[Zookeeper Dan]

Dave Korhal, on 27 January 2016 - 09:44 AM, said:

Is there any advantage to the ULTRA AC/5 over the AC/5? It looks like they currently have nearly the same stats, except the ULTRA has less range and has a chance of jamming.

On medium and light mechs the extra ton that the UAC/5 weighs over the normal AC/5 can make a huge difference. How often are you going to be double tapping over what else can you do with that ton? Extra Ammo, Jump Jets, a Medium Laser are all great reasons to take an AC/5 over the UAC/5. Look at it this way, will you have better damage with an UAC/5 or with an AC/5 and one medium laser. It will largely be play style and build dependent.

[CodeCypher01]

Hello, I just started playing MWO, when I made my account, I got talked into it by a guildie in another game and wasn't interested in MWO really at that time, I used a pilot name without putting much thought into it, now I'm really intersted in getting into MWO and would like to change my pilot name to the handle I usually use in PC games, is there a way to do that? Any help would be appreciated.

[Digital_Angel]

Xarathos, on 28 January 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

Hello, I just started playing MWO, when I made my account, I got talked into it by a guildie in another game and wasn't interested in MWO really at that time, I used a pilot name without putting much thought into it, now I'm really intersted in getting into MWO and would like to change my pilot name to the handle I usually use in PC games, is there a way to do that? Any help would be appreciated.

https://mwomercs.com/profile/name

First time is free, after that 4500 MC (which is F'ing ridiculous I think, should have been less but apparently they didn't want people changing names all the time).

OR if you don't have anything on the account you care about losing (haven't put any real $ in the game), just create a second account and start fresh with any lessons learned from the first time. Also starting fresh could have some advantages since Academy rewards and Cadet bonuses went up after the Steam release from what they were before.

[Tesunie]

Danth Reduviid, on 28 January 2016 - 09:24 AM, said:

On medium and light mechs the extra ton that the UAC/5 weighs over the normal AC/5 can make a huge difference. How often are you going to be double tapping over what else can you do with that ton? Extra Ammo, Jump Jets, a Medium Laser are all great reasons to take an AC/5 over the UAC/5. Look at it this way, will you have better damage with an UAC/5 or with an AC/5 and one medium laser. It will largely be play style and build dependent.

Largely play style influenced, but most times it's still normally more worth while to take the UAC5 over the normal AC5. The ability to rapid fire is very handy, and typically with a lighter mech, you have the speed to hit till the UAC jams, then run and hide til it unjams. Of course, many builds also look for high alphas to shoot and scoot, so as stated, it depends upon the play style. Even with Shoot and Scoot, it still is normally worth the extra crits and tonnage for the Ultra version.

Edited by Tesunie, 28 January 2016 - 02:20 PM.

[snow0815]

Is the C-AC 20 bugged? It seems to be the exact same as the Ultra version, onyl the weight is different?