224 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

Wispsy, on 03 October 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

We live in very different worlds...in the games I play people hit lights consistently in the location they want. The main reason that hitting a light in the same place is not very common, is that it is very rare you would ever need more then 2 shots to take out a component, and taking anything but an arm is a death sentence, hell most of the time you only need 1 good shot on a light to end it. So basically...we should balance the armour of lights based on general incompetence in a newly released game so that they become 100% non existent in higher levels of play?(I do not even mean top...) With what you suggest any mech with any SSRMs at all would be auto-win within seconds against any light in the game...

Time will go on, average skill level will increase. People will find out that hitting lights is not really that hard if you have a little mouse control.

And to be fair my friend kills more lights then anything (maybe meds), he enjoys SSRMs. They do not help against Assaults, too much armour.


On the LRM matter, yes I overstated it, you simply did not see how using TAG instead of a single MedLas would increase your performance.

I find it hard to believe anyone could have enough skill (not including luck) to hit a fast moving light mech in the same component consecutively.
And again, i do see how TAG increases the performance of LRM's but a player should not have to take one to make the weapon viable.

[Wolfways]

RandomLurker, on 03 October 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

After reading the OP, I've determined that this is a light mech complaint thread in disguise.

lol, i'm not disguising anything. I just stated facts about how hitting mechs changed from the way it works in TT more for some mechs than others.

[3rdworld]

Wolfways, on 04 October 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

I find it hard to believe anyone could have enough skill (not including luck) to hit a fast moving light mech in the same component consecutively.
And again, i do see how TAG increases the performance of LRM's but a player should not have to take one to make the weapon viable.

Have you seen how large the CT is on a jenner?

And here is 2 consecutive CT back shots on a raven.

Edited by 3rdworld, 04 October 2013 - 04:19 AM.

[stjobe]

Wolfways, on 04 October 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

I find it hard to believe anyone could have enough skill (not including luck) to hit a fast moving light mech in the same component consecutively.

From the vantage point of actually piloting a "fast moving light 'mech" on a daily basis, I can assure you that there are plenty of people with enough skill to do just that - although it usually isn't necessary to do so more than once or twice before I'm dead.

Why do you think us light pilots adhere to the maxim "speed is life"? It's because we die if we slow down, since we don't have tons upon tons of armour protecting us, and it's no harder hitting a light's side torso at 60 kph than hitting an assault's side torso at the same speed.

Incidentally, that is also why most light pilots don't really like the way SSRMs work currently - they take away our mobility advantage, leaving just our paper-thin armour as protection, and there's no real way of protecting yourself against them short of avoiding fighting. Which is kinda boring in a game where fighting is the whole raison d'être.

[Gaan Cathal]

Tincan Nightmare, on 03 October 2013 - 12:10 AM, said:

Cool, then can we lower the price of assaults or raise the price of lights? If bringing either is a valid option and both have been made equivalent, why do assaults still cost so much more? I'm not saying I endorse the OP's view point, but if lights have been made the counter to assaults in MWO, why does that counter still cost a fraction of its intended target. Lights in TT were less expensive (and had a lower battle value) because as you point out tonnage was king in TT. In MWO, with lights getting such a large push to be 'viable' (which evidently means going head to head with heavier mechs, though the poor medium doesn't seem to get the same treatment) why then do assaults still carry over the TT costs? If a light mech is going to be 1/5th the price of an assault, it should be 1/5th the combat capacity. If it can directly engage an assault (that outweighs it by up to a factor of 5 in weapons and armor, like a jeep versus a tank) then that assault is just way overpriced. From the beginning of MWO, most players have wanted lights to be 'viable', which usually means they want to go hunt Atlai and Stalkers in their lights. I hoped PGI would have given more uses and roles for lights in the game besides straight up combat as an alternative, but I guess that just isn't in the cards.

Firstly, they can't currently directly engage an Assault. They also currently aren't as worth bringing as an Assault (nothing has as much on-field value as an Atlas, currently, it's just that the margins are thin).

That said, what I'm talking about is all classes being equally worth bringing to a match. That does not mean all classes being equally likely to win a 1v1 duel. Balancing around that would make Lights overpowered, since they are more able to wolfpack than other classes. The reason Lights used to be the counter to Assaults (and should be) is that they are the most able to reliably target rear armour, effectively lowering the number of hitpoints they need to chew through in exchange for their reduced loadout and survivability. They also have "offensive" ancillary capabilities (they're good at capping) which make them useful outside a direct combat, although I'd argue Assaults also have "defensive" ancillary capabilities since they can slap their back to an oil rig to protect their rear and their biggest weakness (speed) suddenly becomes irrelevant.

However, your point isn't entirely accurate. An off-the-shelf Light often costs less than an off-the-shelf Assault, but they're also, almost without exception, absolute garbage. What we're actually talking about is the relative value of customised Lights vs Assaults. At which point a RVN-3L will set you back around 12.7M, and an AS7-D-DC fit for brawling will set you back about 16.2M. That's only ~3M difference, which is fairly irrelevant in the scheme of things now we don't have R&R. If R&R was redesigned and reinstated, then you could balance with cost, since it would be a persistent element. However, it's not. Infact, since Assaults invariably earn the most money, once that extra 3M investment is paid off they have an economic advantage over Lights.

[Krivvan]

stjobe, on 04 October 2013 - 05:37 AM, said:

Incidentally, that is also why most light pilots don't really like the way SSRMs work currently - they take away our mobility advantage, leaving just our paper-thin armour as protection, and there's no real way of protecting yourself against them short of avoiding fighting. Which is kinda boring in a game where fighting is the whole raison d'être.

I'm a light pilot that rather likes the way SSRMs work currently. It's just that you have to focus everything on breaking target lock, not on making yourself harder to aim at. Jump jets help immensely with this.

Gaan Cathal, on 04 October 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

Firstly, they can't currently directly engage an Assault. They also currently aren't as worth bringing as an Assault (nothing has as much on-field value as an Atlas, currently, it's just that the margins are thin).

Lights can directly engages Assaults depending on the terrain and the loadout of the Assault (a laser boat assault can be easy pickings for a Light). It's just that it's usually smarter to go after already weakened Assaults and/or hit them with a group of Lights or the rest of your team.

And Atlases are not considered the most valuable Assault mechs right now. If anything it's the Highlander at the moment.

[MustrumRidcully]

It seems to me that it's a fallacy to claim that Light mech speed gives them an undue advantage in MW:O compared to their situation in the table top game.

The table top game had movement modifiers, too,t he result being that fast mechs moving fast were harder to hit. This worked both ways in the table top - you also suffered more penalties if you moved fast yourself. And it works both ways in MW:O, because if you run around the enemy a lot, tracking him with lasers and leading ballistics or missiles isn't exactly trivial.

In the end, when the devs made this game, the dev blogs pretty much stated that they didn't want MW:O to become like every other mechwarrior title before, where it was a race to the heaviest mech you could get. That means they intentionally never wanted lights to be worse than assaults. Different, yes, but not worse. And I think they are pretty different in play style. Whether PGI still "believes" in this goal I don't know. Considering how they can, with their currently pricing scheme, make more money with assaults than with lights I think there is some economical pressure for them to abandon the goal, but it's not like they could just change their pricing scheme.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 04 October 2013 - 05:57 AM.

[Cybermech]

Wolf I read the post again since you thought I missed something.
Still not seeing what I missed and still agree with what I said.

Lights (excluding spider) is not an easy instant win button.
Assaults are not as slow or have weak points like they used to.
Its why I have been saying the biggest hit to unbalanced game play has been skill unlocks.
It takes away the holes bigger mechs should have and makes them an easy win.
I don't pilot any assaults and made the decision back at the end of CB.
They were far too easy with little skill needed to pilot them and have far too many positives which makes lighter mechs useless.
Lag shield has been the only thing keeping Lights and mediums playable and this has been reduced a lot.
Heavies and mediums can go fast enough to push lights away, of course then the light has a chance to retreat but really good chance the light is crippled is some way.
It is a problem in other games and is where MASC has been used to try and counter the issue. (not a fan)

Seriously you can feel like a god in a light till you engage anyone who can aim.
I'm seeing scouting victors, soloing, out numbered in situations where a light couldn't even dare too.
If armor was spread out the way the OP suggests then there would be no point in piloting lights and mediums.

[stjobe]

Krivvan, on 04 October 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

I'm a light pilot that rather likes the way SSRMs work currently. It's just that you have to focus everything on breaking target lock, not on making yourself harder to aim at. Jump jets help immensely with this.

As you may be aware I prefer piloting Commandos - not many jump jets on those

Either way, a weapon that doesn't require direct line-of-sight to get a lock with, can be largely ignored by heavier 'mechs, does more damage than its unguided variant, and always hits - is not a very well balanced weapon if you ask me.

And I do have triple SSRMs on my 2D, but I don't play it much since it feels like cheating. It has about three times the KDR of my other Commandos.

[Gaan Cathal]

Krivvan, on 04 October 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

Lights can directly engages Assaults depending on the terrain and the loadout of the Assault (a laser boat assault can be easy pickings for a Light). It's just that it's usually smarter to go after already weakened Assaults and/or hit them with a group of Lights or the rest of your team.

And Atlases are not considered the most valuable Assault mechs right now. If anything it's the Highlander at the moment.

I should have clarified the first bit better, I meant a 50:50 winrate engagement at equal pilot skill.

As for the Atlas thing, I'm accounting for drift. I personally think that the Highlander's advantage is that it's less light-pack vulnerable than the Atlas. 12 Highlanders vs 12 Atlai however, I think all things being equal the Atlai would win (presuming we're not talking 12 identi-pop-tart builds on the right map).

stjobe, on 04 October 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

Either way, a weapon that doesn't require direct line-of-sight to get a lock with, can be largely ignored by heavier 'mechs, does more damage than its unguided variant, and always hits - is not a very well balanced weapon if you ask me.

And I do have triple SSRMs on my 2D, but I don't play it much since it feels like cheating. It has about three times the KDR of my other Commandos.

I do agree with him that, as someone who pilots Lights a lot, I'm quite happy with how SSRMs currently work. If you're going to have low-skill autohit weapons, then bone-homing is the right way to do it, since in loosing the need to aim, you also lose the ability to aim (more important when SRMs are hitting properly, granted, but you shouldn't balance around glitches). The problem is that they're inexplicably and unnecessarily more damaging than SRMs.

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 04 October 2013 - 06:07 AM.

[Cybermech]

that is quite funny, cause the only commando's I have seen in a long time are very easily killed by lots of types of weapons.
commando's are the weakest of lights even compared to the raven 2x,4x.
the time when commando's lag shield of destiny is long gone.

if you have a seriously low ping I could understand how you could still use the commando.
but other then that I would not think it wise to use one.

[Krivvan]

stjobe, on 04 October 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

As you may be aware I prefer piloting Commandos - not many jump jets on those

Either way, a weapon that doesn't require direct line-of-sight to get a lock with, can be largely ignored by heavier 'mechs, does more damage than its unguided variant, and always hits - is not a very well balanced weapon if you ask me.

The way I see it though, the tradeoff is the time it takes to get a lock. I primarily break streak locks by doing a 180 and jumping over the offending mech into cover, which tends to be just enough for them to lose target lock. Failing that I just weave in and out of cover enough to break lock and/or have the streaks impact buildings as they turn.

That and the fact that streak damage is unfocused, so I am unworried about having to torso twist and spin to spread out damage. I can engage the streak mech and focus fire to components to the best of my ability.

I find that if you have armour on you, then streaks aren't that scary. I find streaks only extremely strong when I have one component that is very weak.

I'd like to add one thing though. If they added some form of indicator that someone had a streak lock on you, I'd think that would actually inject quite a bit of interesting gameplay and skill into streak usage. If you knew for sure when and when they didn't have streak lock on you, you would be able to break it much easier.

Gaan Cathal, on 04 October 2013 - 06:04 AM, said:

(presuming we're not talking 12 identi-pop-tart builds on the right map).

But you have to take that into account. It's what you see in tournament games.

Edited by Krivvan, 04 October 2013 - 06:08 AM.

[Grrzoot]

i thought this topic died back in april................

[stjobe]

Cybermech, on 04 October 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

that is quite funny, cause the only commando's I have seen in a long time are very easily killed by lots of types of weapons.
commando's are the weakest of lights even compared to the raven 2x,4x.
the time when commando's lag shield of destiny is long gone.

No argument there, although "weakest" is a relative term that doesn't take pilot skill into account.

Cybermech, on 04 October 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

if you have a seriously low ping I could understand how you could still use the commando.
but other then that I would not think it wise to use one.

I play from the EU, so my ping is around 100-120, and I never claimed to be wise

[Wolfways]

3rdworld, on 04 October 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

Have you seen how large the CT is on a jenner?

And here is 2 consecutive CT back shots on a raven.

Yeah because i'm only talking about Jenners...
And that clip proves nothing other than it's possible to accidentally hit a mech in the same component twice while firing at the mech.

[Wolfways]

stjobe, on 04 October 2013 - 05:37 AM, said:

From the vantage point of actually piloting a "fast moving light 'mech" on a daily basis, I can assure you that there are plenty of people with enough skill to do just that - although it usually isn't necessary to do so more than once or twice before I'm dead.

Why do you think us light pilots adhere to the maxim "speed is life"? It's because we die if we slow down, since we don't have tons upon tons of armour protecting us, and it's no harder hitting a light's side torso at 60 kph than hitting an assault's side torso at the same speed.

Incidentally, that is also why most light pilots don't really like the way SSRMs work currently - they take away our mobility advantage, leaving just our paper-thin armour as protection, and there's no real way of protecting yourself against them short of avoiding fighting. Which is kinda boring in a game where fighting is the whole raison d'être.

I've been playing Commando's for the past few days and i feel the ways i've died are either through AC's (usually AC20 which is pretty much instant death if you're already damaged) which can mess up a light easily, lasers which take forever to do enough damage to get a kill, Streaks are a pain for lights but again take a long time to kill due to the hits spreading everywhere. LRM's are even more pointless against lights than against heavier mechs.

"Speed is life" can be applied to every mech, but the amount of armour the heavier mechs get doesn't make up for the loss of speed imo.

[Wispsy]

Krivvan, on 04 October 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

The way I see it though, the tradeoff is the time it takes to get a lock. I primarily break streak locks by doing a 180 and jumping over the offending mech into cover, which tends to be just enough for them to lose target lock.



But you have to take that into account. It's what you see in tournament games.

I do not understand what you mean. You realise that even with 5 jumpjets somebody can acquire lock on you before you reach a mech length off the ground. Target delay or 360 targeting means that they can still shoot even if they were slow and you made it out of Los.

So basically...this should not work. I mean seriously now, I have used ssrms and they will simply outdamage you, whilst you put yourself in the vulnerable position of making a large jump. The only time this would come close to working is if for some unknown stupid reason they did not use Artemis...which I originally thought was a bug but it would be an exceedingly simple one to fix no matter how they coded it...so working as intended I guess.

[Gaan Cathal]

Wispsy, on 04 October 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

I do not understand what you mean. You realise that even with 5 jumpjets somebody can acquire lock on you before you reach a mech length off the ground. Target delay or 360 targeting means that they can still shoot even if they were slow and you made it out of Los.

So basically...this should not work. I mean seriously now, I have used ssrms and they will simply outdamage you, whilst you put yourself in the vulnerable position of making a large jump. The only time this would come close to working is if for some unknown stupid reason they did not use Artemis...which I originally thought was a bug but it would be an exceedingly simple one to fix no matter how they coded it...so working as intended I guess.

It's possible he's fighting people who don't realise Artemis affects Streaks? It's not exactly like documentation for this game is...well, existent.

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 04 October 2013 - 06:44 AM.

[Wolfways]

Krivvan, on 04 October 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

And Atlases are not considered the most valuable Assault mechs right now. If anything it's the Highlander at the moment.

I'm actually happier to see Jagermechs on my team (or any heavies for that matter), but then i think assaults are terribly weak due to the lack of speed, especially the Atlas and Stalkers.

[Krivvan]

Wispsy, on 04 October 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

I do not understand what you mean. You realise that even with 5 jumpjets somebody can acquire lock on you before you reach a mech length off the ground. Target delay or 360 targeting means that they can still shoot even if they were slow and you made it out of Los.

I mean seeing a streak mech, immediately running into cover, and jumping over it from the cover firing directly down at it past what you can see through the cockpit windows.

I also find the "fall down a cliff or hole" approach breaks lock as well.

Against worse streak users, just simple hopping and zig-zagging can stop the streaks from starting for a quite a while.

Admittedly it works much better against heavier mechs with streaks than fighting another streak light.

You still take streak hits, but the goal is to reduce the number of streaks that actually end up hitting you. They tend to turn and explode into cover, which is why my streak accuracy is only something like 60%-70%.

Edited by Krivvan, 04 October 2013 - 06:47 AM.