224 replies to this topic

[3rdworld]

Wolfways, on 04 October 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

Yeah because i'm only talking about Jenners...
And that clip proves nothing other than it's possible to accidentally hit a mech in the same component twice while firing at the mech.

So you think it is an isolated event?

How many more would you like to see? I have quite a lot of footage, I can make more Gifs.

[Wispsy]

Wolfways, on 04 October 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

Yeah because i'm only talking about Jenners...
And that clip proves nothing other than it's possible to accidentally hit a mech in the same component twice while firing at the mech.

Ok so let us put it this way. When the catapults head was the same size as all of the windows, taking a catapult was suicide. People headshot them all the time. Not just once either, landing th follow up shot np if they did not immediately leave Los. It was so much of a problem, they have had to reduce the hitbox to a single small pane. Now if people can reliably hit a catapults head over and over again (my god I headshotted so many catapults on my 2ppc dragon let alone with jjs) why the hell would they not be able to hit a light mech which is truly massive in comparison.


Not everybody is as bad at aiming as you are. Get over it please. If you cannot hit a light mech then just use the hard counter of ssrms.

[Krivvan]

I'm not saying that SSRMs are bad against lights, they definitely are good at taking out lights (although I think they're much better at finishing off a light with an exposed component than taking one down from full).

It's just that I like SSRM mechanics (and I don't like using them myself, I like others having them) as they are right now. I wouldn't mind them increasing lock time or changing damage though. But the base idea is something I don't think is a problem with the game.

[Mister Blastman]

Wolfways, on 04 October 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

I find it hard to believe anyone could have enough skill (not including luck) to hit a fast moving light mech in the same component consecutively.
And again, i do see how TAG increases the performance of LRM's but a player should not have to take one to make the weapon viable.

I hit light mechs repeatedly in the center torso in my BJ-1. My AC/20 loves Jenners! (Or any other light mech.) There's no luck to it. Oh, and the AC/20 is much harder to hit with than some other weapons... I even pull those shots off at 350+ meters.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 04 October 2013 - 06:54 AM.

[Wolfways]

MustrumRidcully, on 04 October 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

It seems to me that it's a fallacy to claim that Light mech speed gives them an undue advantage in MW:O compared to their situation in the table top game.

The table top game had movement modifiers, too,t he result being that fast mechs moving fast were harder to hit. This worked both ways in the table top - you also suffered more penalties if you moved fast yourself. And it works both ways in MW:O, because if you run around the enemy a lot, tracking him with lasers and leading ballistics or missiles isn't exactly trivial.

In the end, when the devs made this game, the dev blogs pretty much stated that they didn't want MW:O to become like every other mechwarrior title before, where it was a race to the heaviest mech you could get. That means they intentionally never wanted lights to be worse than assaults. Different, yes, but not worse. And I think they are pretty different in play style. Whether PGI still "believes" in this goal I don't know. Considering how they can, with their currently pricing scheme, make more money with assaults than with lights I think there is some economical pressure for them to abandon the goal, but it's not like they could just change their pricing scheme.

The TT rules only take into account a hit or a miss though, not where you hit if you get a hit. That is a completely separate and random roll.

Of course i do think that lights should be able to use speed to their advantage, but that advantage should be to hit the enemy in the rear, fade away to reposition, and attack the rear again. i.e. guerrilla fighters. The way lights work now they are brawlers, taking that position away from the mediums. They don't need to quickly escape to avoid being hit. It's too easy to just run around, and even circle strafe until they've taken so much damage that they then decide to run away.
Everyone says that mediums are the most underplayed class right now, and that's obviously because lights can do the same job better.

[Wolfways]

Cybermech, on 04 October 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

Wolf I read the post again since you thought I missed something.
Still not seeing what I missed and still agree with what I said.

Lights (excluding spider) is not an easy instant win button.

I've never said they were an instant win button, but i do believe they are easier than they should be.

Quote

Assaults are not as slow or have weak points like they used to.
Its why I have been saying the biggest hit to unbalanced game play has been skill unlocks.
It takes away the holes bigger mechs should have and makes them an easy win.
I don't pilot any assaults and made the decision back at the end of CB.
They were far too easy with little skill needed to pilot them and have far too many positives which makes lighter mechs useless.

I consider piloting an assault to be probably the hardest class to do well with. They are very slow and it's easy to drill straight through a single component, like the ct. This is why i prefer heavies.

Quote

Lag shield has been the only thing keeping Lights and mediums playable and this has been reduced a lot.
Heavies and mediums can go fast enough to push lights away, of course then the light has a chance to retreat but really good chance the light is crippled is some way.
It is a problem in other games and is where MASC has been used to try and counter the issue. (not a fan)

Seriously you can feel like a god in a light till you engage anyone who can aim.
I'm seeing scouting victors, soloing, out numbered in situations where a light couldn't even dare too.
If armor was spread out the way the OP suggests then there would be no point in piloting lights and mediums.

stjobe, on 04 October 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

As you may be aware I prefer piloting Commandos - not many jump jets on those

Either way, a weapon that doesn't require direct line-of-sight to get a lock with, can be largely ignored by heavier 'mechs, does more damage than its unguided variant, and always hits - is not a very well balanced weapon if you ask me.

And I do have triple SSRMs on my 2D, but I don't play it much since it feels like cheating. It has about three times the KDR of my other Commandos.

How do Streaks not require direct LoS to get a lock?

[Wolfways]

3rdworld, on 04 October 2013 - 06:49 AM, said:

So you think it is an isolated event?

How many more would you like to see? I have quite a lot of footage, I can make more Gifs.

It isn't possible to prove you were actually aiming at a specific component and not just at the mech.

[Randalf Yorgen]

Wolfways, on 02 October 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

Okay, i keep getting asked what i mean when i say that light mechs in MWO recieved a bigger defense buff over the other classes because of TT values and why i think armour values should have been increased incrementally with lights getting the smallest buff and assaults getting the biggest, so i'm making this post so i don't have to explain it over and over.

First for anyone who doesn't know, all mech armour was doubled in MWO over the TT values because mechs were being destroyed too fast which made for very short matches.

Right...
MWO is based on the Battletech tabletop game and it uses the Battletech armour values for mechs (doubled).
In Battletech all damage from weapons fire is applied to a mechs components randomly. You roll 2D6 to see where your shot hit the enemy mech and damage from the weapon is applied to that component (i.e. side torso, head, right leg, etc.) Every time you fire any weapon you get the same chance to hit every component.
Imagine there's a match between a Jenner and an Atlas (just using these as examples but it applies to every mech). Both roll to hit their opponent and both roll to see where their weapons hit and apply damage.
Now, because they both have the same random chance to hit the enemy components the Atlas is at an advantage because all his components have more armour than the Jenners components, so the Jenner needs to hit the Atlas more often than the Atlas needs to hit the Jenner to remove armour from those components...unless (and this is important) one of them is lucky enough to roll on the same location multiple times and tear through that components armour.

Now imagine that a new rule was introduced that says "Because the Atlas moves so slow you can roll 2D6 and if you get a double you get to choose where your weapons hit it instead of rolling the dice for hit location." Suddenly the Jenner has recieved an automatic lucky roll (see above) with many of his shots. He now has a much higher chance of killing the Atlas because every time he rolls a double he can choose the same location, for example the centre torso.
Would this be fair?
This is what has happened in MWO. The slower the mech (including slower torso twist) the easier it is to hit the same component over and over because instead of rolling dice to find the hit location we can aim where we want. We roll a double every time we fire. The only thing that reduces your chance of reliably hitting the same component over and over is the speed of the target mech. The faster the mech the more chance you have of missing the component you were aiming at and hitting another component (or even missing the target completely), therefore spreading the damage.
This means that the faster the mech moves in MWO the more like the random hit locations from the tabletop game it becomes.

So, the faster the mech the more it can spread the damage and survive.
This means that faster mechs have gained more defense by all mechs having the same armour values (doubled) as the tabletop game which was made for a random hit location table, not for players being able to choose where their shots hit.
Generally, lights recieved the biggest buff, followed by mediums, then heavies, then assaults.
This is why i believe that armour values (assuming PGI wished to stay somewhat true to the original values, which they've shown they do) should have been increased incrementally.
For example:
Lights - 25% increase.
Mediums - 50% increase.
Heavies - 75% increase.
Assaults - 100% increase.
(Obviously these are just random numbers i chose for the example. PGI would have to decide on the actual numbers used and through testing and gameplay adjust accordingly.)

The way MWO is now many players think lights seem to take a lot more damage than they expected (assuming no bugged hitboxes), while assaults seem to take little damage to destroy (although generally still more than lights). This is because the damage is spread on lights and concentrated on assaults.
Obviously the skill of both players (firer and target) is involved but assuming average skill i'd say that it's much easier to hit an assaults centre torso consecutively than it is to hit a lights centre torso consecutively.
This is also why big damage weapons or Alpha strikes (like gauss+2xPPC which PGI is trying to remove) are popular. They cause high damage to a single component and if the enemy isn't destroyed in one hit then the next shot might destroy them if it hits the same location.
It's also why many players try to destroy a light mechs leg first, to slow it down and make it easier to hit in the same location reliably.

When it comes to speed there is another thing to consider. We can customize our mechs.
Imo, generally it is the light mechs that prioritize speed as the primary important consideration when customizing. After all, the light mech mantra is "Speed is life".
Assault mech speeds tends to not change much from their stock versions. Heavy mech speed can be considered more important than for assaults but weapons are still probably the most important consideration.
For light mechs changing engine usually means fitting just about the biggest engine you can, and the speed increase between a stock light and a customized light can be huge. For example the Raven-3L (not one of the fastest mechs) comes with an XL210 which gives it a speed of 97.2kph but can use an XL295 which increases its speed to 136.5kph. An increase of 39.3kph. An Atlas-D-DC on the other hand comes stock with an STD300 giving a speed of 48.6kph and can upgrade to a STD (or XL)360 which increases the speed to 58.3kph. An increase of only 9.7kph. The speed increase grows with the smaller the weight class (generally).
I think this is part of what causes medium mechs to be less popular than the other weight classes. Part of the mediums role is to kill lights and flank the enemy and they need high speed to do that, but if they increase the engine size too much then they limit their weapon choice to smaller or less weapons. If they choose weapons as the primary consideration then they may not have the speed to chase lights or flank the enemy. It's a tough choice and finding a balance seems to be more important for mediums than for other weight classes.

Anyway, that's why i say that lights got a bigger defense buff over other classes in the conversion from TT to MWO.

A couple of things OP,

First, great post, very clear and easy to follow and I only want to bring up two issues.

The first little issue, and it is small but I think worth mentioning. In TT you could "Call Shots" on Stationary and Immobile Targets with a +4 Modifier so your "You get to chose where your shots hit every time you roll a double" was already in TT to some degree. Like I said it was a small point but one I felt should be mentioned.

Secondly, When you describe what Mediums are supposed to do you are a little off the mark. Yes they mainly kill lights but they don't leave the main body to do this. They generally sweep back and forth between where the missile boats have set up and where the Assaults are rallying to deal with any enemy lights that try to pop in there and cause havock. The Hunchback SP and P are very good for this specific roll. Both can be loaded up with SPL and a bigger engine and so that they can easily smack the legs off any light or small medium (yes ciccada, I'm looking at you) that is foolish enough to come close. If Mediums want to add more to the battle the Hunchback J can take 2X LRM10 and a mix of 3X SPL and 2X SL. The Centurian AL can also have some very effective builds that can counter lights, 2X LL (Arm) 2X ML (CT) and two missiles (LRM 5's or SRM 4's with Artimus).

The real difference between TT and MWO is that you can't sit back and plan where each shot is going, you have to work it on the fly and this usually leads to a loss of Unit Cohesion which allows one team to pick off the other team one by one. The fact that they increased the Armour did give the lights a slightly bigger boost but it's the ability to think and fight on your feet that gives them the offencive advantage, the counter is which is for the enemy to stick together so that the lights run into a wall of fire and are driven off or killed outright.

If they hadn't doubled the Armour they would have had to increase the recharge/recycle times of all the weapons to a minimum of double what they are now to a Maximum of 10 seconds. Imagine a SPL that takes 4 seconds between shots or a PPC that takes 8 to recharge or a Gauss that takes a full 10 seconds to reload and recharge. That would make for a very different game than what is being played now. They have also said that inthe future that they will bring Collisions back into the game (maybe they will maybe they won't, not holding my breath) but if they do then lights will really be in a pickle ad it would be quite interesting to see how things adapt to that. I was beta testing when Collisions were first brought in and lights were getting hip checked everywhere and knocked to the ground, 4 seconds to get back on your feet and start moving again is the longest and most painful 4 seconds you will ever endure while playing any game.

Anyways, that's about it. Great post OP. What do we do with it now?

[Wolfways]

Wispsy, on 04 October 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

Ok so let us put it this way. When the catapults head was the same size as all of the windows, taking a catapult was suicide. People headshot them all the time. Not just once either, landing th follow up shot np if they did not immediately leave Los. It was so much of a problem, they have had to reduce the hitbox to a single small pane. Now if people can reliably hit a catapults head over and over again (my god I headshotted so many catapults on my 2ppc dragon let alone with jjs) why the hell would they not be able to hit a light mech which is truly massive in comparison.

Because hitting a light mech is the same as aiming at a single component on a light mech?

Quote

Not everybody is as bad at aiming as you are. Get over it please. If you cannot hit a light mech then just use the hard counter of ssrms.

lol so many people say that. If i cared i'd hope you just cut and paste that instead of wasting time typing out something so stupid.

[Mister Blastman]

Wolfways, on 04 October 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

Because hitting a light mech is the same as aiming at a single component on a light mech?


lol so many people say that. If i cared i'd hope you just cut and paste that instead of wasting time typing out something so stupid.

I'm convinced you are just trolling and are a waste of time.

[Wolfways]

Mister Blastman, on 04 October 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

I hit light mechs repeatedly in the center torso in my BJ-1. My AC/20 loves Jenners! (Or any other light mech.) There's no luck to it. Oh, and the AC/20 is much harder to hit with than some other weapons... I even pull those shots off at 350+ meters.

Of course you do, because you're more likely to hit the center of the mech when you are just aiming at the mech. Could you just as easily take the "arms" off a Jenner if you wanted to?

[Mister Blastman]

Wolfways, on 04 October 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

Of course you do, because you're more likely to hit the center of the mech when you are just aiming at the mech. Could you just as easily take the "arms" off a Jenner if you wanted to?

I purposefully aim for the CT of a Jenner... and when the side torso is damaged... I aim for that, too. Same with a Raven. No problem. Why would I shoot the arms on a Jenner? That's a waste of time when the CT Is so easy to hit. Arm won't kill a Jenner. CT/ST will.

[Wispsy]

Wolfways, on 04 October 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

Of course you do, because you're more likely to hit the center of the mech when you are just aiming at the mech. Could you just as easily take the "arms" off a Jenner if you wanted to?

Well actually in the past I have gone through periods of not killing other jenners till I took both their arms first...because why not...

But why would you want to take a jenners arm on purpose other then fun?

No longer wasting my time on you...I am relatively sure you are just trolling now

[Prezimonto]

Khobai, on 02 October 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

It was 100% intentional to equalize light mechs with assaults. If PGI had done what you proposed and scaled armor incrementally then light mechs would be completely useless.

The problem isnt that light mechs survive proportionally better than assault mechs. The problem is that damage in general is still way too high and PGI needs to increase center and side torso armor/internal structure to compensate for it since theyve made it abundably clear they arnt going to fix convergence.

Increasing internal structure is the best way to go. Because it will prevent Locust/Fleas from being one-shotted, it will prevent heavies and assaults from being center torso cored as often, it will make critical hits matter more because items will get destroyed before the location theyre contained in, and it will have no effect on current builds since it doesnt change tonnage or armor values. Plus its a very easy fix for PGI and all they have to do is change the internal structure modifier value from 1.0 to 1.X.

I think standard engines should convey an added %increase to CT internal HP. This makes them a little more competitive relative to XL engines, and gives most assaults the needed boost to durability.

[stjobe]

Wolfways, on 04 October 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

How do Streaks not require direct LoS to get a lock?

Have you ever even used SSRMs?

All it requires is that someone else has the target, then you can get a lock no matter if you're behind cover or even two kilometres away.

[Wolfways]

Randalf Yorgen, on 04 October 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

A couple of things OP, First, great post, very clear and easy to follow and I only want to bring up two issues. The first little issue, and it is small but I think worth mentioning. In TT you could "Call Shots" on Stationary and Immobile Targets with a +4 Modifier so your "You get to chose where your shots hit every time you roll a double" was already in TT to some degree. Like I said it was a small point but one I felt should be mentioned.

Thank you. That's interesting. I didn't know about that rule, and i haven't played TT for around 30 years.
Was that only for completely stationary targets? In MWO an Atlas moving at around 50kph might as well be stationary

Quote

Secondly, When you describe what Mediums are supposed to do you are a little off the mark. Yes they mainly kill lights but they don't leave the main body to do this. They generally sweep back and forth between where the missile boats have set up and where the Assaults are rallying to deal with any enemy lights that try to pop in there and cause havock. The Hunchback SP and P are very good for this specific roll. Both can be loaded up with SPL and a bigger engine and so that they can easily smack the legs off any light or small medium (yes ciccada, I'm looking at you) that is foolish enough to come close. If Mediums want to add more to the battle the Hunchback J can take 2X LRM10 and a mix of 3X SPL and 2X SL. The Centurian AL can also have some very effective builds that can counter lights, 2X LL (Arm) 2X ML (CT) and two missiles (LRM 5's or SRM 4's with Artimus). The real difference between TT and MWO is that you can't sit back and plan where each shot is going, you have to work it on the fly and this usually leads to a loss of Unit Cohesion which allows one team to pick off the other team one by one. The fact that they increased the Armour did give the lights a slightly bigger boost but it's the ability to think and fight on your feet that gives them the offencive advantage, the counter is which is for the enemy to stick together so that the lights run into a wall of fire and are driven off or killed outright.

Well with the small size of most of the MWO maps i don't really consider it possible to leave the main body, but then i'm starting to think i have a different idea of scale than many other players. To me the weapon ranges in MWO are very short and this together with the small maps means that the game is basically made for brawling (which considering the scale of the mechs i would call fighting at under 500m)

Quote

If they hadn't doubled the Armour they would have had to increase the recharge/recycle times of all the weapons to a minimum of double what they are now to a Maximum of 10 seconds. Imagine a SPL that takes 4 seconds between shots or a PPC that takes 8 to recharge or a Gauss that takes a full 10 seconds to reload and recharge. That would make for a very different game than what is being played now.

I would actually love that Having to consider when to fire certain weapons instead of just spamming them as it is now. It would make the game more tactical imo.

Quote

They have also said that inthe future that they will bring Collisions back into the game (maybe they will maybe they won't, not holding my breath) but if they do then lights will really be in a pickle ad it would be quite interesting to see how things adapt to that. I was beta testing when Collisions were first brought in and lights were getting hip checked everywhere and knocked to the ground, 4 seconds to get back on your feet and start moving again is the longest and most painful 4 seconds you will ever endure while playing any game.

Unfortunately i tend not to believe anything PGI say anymore. When it's in the game i'll believe it. Otherwise it's just what was their "position at the time".
I remember knockdowns though. Always thought it was weird that even assaults were so easily knocked down. I did like that it took a while to get back up though. It made me more careful about being aware of my surroundings when piloting a light mech...or any mech actually.

Quote

Anyways, that's about it. Great post OP. What do we do with it now?

I don't expect to do anything with it
I just got tired of trying to explain why the slower the mech the worse off it was with the transfer from TT to MWO because the faster the mech the more it stayed true to the random hit location rules of TT.

I did expect certain players to come screaming into the thread though, as it could be interpreted of as a "nerf lights, i can't hit them" post, and i wasn't disappointed
I don't want to nerf lights. Why would i when i play a light and when/if the clans come i'll be getting more lights (depending on what mechs are released) like the Kit Fox?

[Wolfways]

Mister Blastman, on 04 October 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

I purposefully aim for the CT of a Jenner... and when the side torso is damaged... I aim for that, too. Same with a Raven. No problem. Why would I shoot the arms on a Jenner? That's a waste of time when the CT Is so easy to hit. Arm won't kill a Jenner. CT/ST will.

I guess you have no problem hitting the Jenners side torso over and over without hitting other components either. Just as easily as hitting the side torso on an Atlas.

[Wolfways]

Wispsy, on 04 October 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

Well actually in the past I have gone through periods of not killing other jenners till I took both their arms first...because why not... But why would you want to take a jenners arm on purpose other then fun?

I never said you would want to. I used that component to ask if you could hit it consistently. But of course it's easier to hit a light if you're chasing it in another light.

Quote

No longer wasting my time on you...I am relatively sure you are just trolling now

Thank you.

stjobe, on 04 October 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

Have you ever even used SSRMs? All it requires is that someone else has the target, then you can get a lock no matter if you're behind cover or even two kilometres away.

Oh i see. I thought you meant in a way that helped you to use Streaks.

[Cybermech]

"I consider piloting an assault to be probably the hardest class to do well with. They are very slow and it's easy to drill straight through a single component, like the ct. This is why i prefer heavies."

that is really off, never heard of Assault warrior online?

I know plenty of good atlas pilots who dominate the field but atm victor/highlander does it way better.
Heavies are also very easy mechs which also require little skill to pilot effectively.

[Wolfways]

Cybermech, on 04 October 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

"I consider piloting an assault to be probably the hardest class to do well with. They are very slow and it's easy to drill straight through a single component, like the ct. This is why i prefer heavies."

that is really off, never heard of Assault warrior online?

I know plenty of good atlas pilots who dominate the field but atm victor/highlander does it way better.
Heavies are also very easy mechs which also require little skill to pilot effectively.

It's my opinion.
And yes i've heard that assaults are dominating matches and are, in varying degrees, "the most common class" to "the only class worth bringing to a fight". In my matches heavies are the most dominant class by far i'd say, followed by lights, assaults, then mediums.
Actually there's a thread somewhere around here where people are totaling up mechs in their matches and seeing that heavies are actually the most popular. I believe Bryan even said in an interview that Cataphracts are the most popular mechs.

How exactly do you judge the skill needed to pilot a class of mech? Even if you ignore that mechs within a class perform differently there are situations that affect different classes in different ways.
If a pilot does little damage but manages to avoid taking much damage and goes on to win the match by capping is the player a skilled pilot? After all, he used tactics and a knowledge of the battlefield to avoid damage to get a win.
If i'm sitting in a concealed position in my RVN-3L lighting up enemy with TAG for my teams LRM's am i a good pilot? Or do you only consider damage and kills as an indicator of skill? If that's the case then i guess i'm a bad heavy pilot as many times i've left heavily damaged mechs for others to finish off while i go looking for other enemy, but then i don't care about my KDR.