224 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

Like I said, armor values should be transferred directly (increases all the same) just bring back knockdowns.

All the quotes I see say lights are
"Recon" (Information)
"Guerrilla Fighters" (Ambushes, fading attacks)
"Strikers" (Fast attacks on weakpoints)

None of them say "high speed circle of death in the middle of a heavy duty firefight."

So if I light wants to risk himself in a circle of death in the middle of a firefight, more power to him- but watch where you're going! Jenner on its face in the middle of a heavy duty firefight has just "assumed the position."

[Mystere]

Get even better in aiming and shooting.

MWO involves more skill than just rolling dice.

Edited by Mystere, 02 October 2013 - 09:16 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

All the quotes I see say lights are
"Recon" (Information)
"Guerrilla Fighters" (Ambushes, fading attacks)
"Strikers" (Fast attacks on weakpoints)

Anything you've read about lights in TT is irrelevant. MWO is not TT. Lights fill a completely different role in MWO because theyve been equalized with assaults.

[FupDup]

Livewyr, on 02 October 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

Like I said, armor values should be transferred directly (increases all the same) just bring back knockdowns.

All the quotes I see say lights are
"Recon" (Information)
"Guerrilla Fighters" (Ambushes, fading attacks)
"Strikers" (Fast attacks on weakpoints)

None of them say "high speed circle of death in the middle of a heavy duty firefight."

So if I light wants to risk himself in a circle of death in the middle of a firefight, more power to him- but watch where you're going! Jenner on its face in the middle of a heavy duty firefight has just "assumed the position."

You're forgetting lights like the Urbanmech or Hollander, which can't be strikers or scouts or guerilla fighters at all by their construction. If we get into Clan mechs we'll even see the devastating Adder and Cougar...most mechs intended for scouting don't carry 2 Large Pulse Lasers and 2 LRM10!


As for "circle of death," that doesn't usually end very well for the light because it puts him in a predictable path for the enemy to line up their guns in anticipation of. I enjoy it when enemy lights try to circle-jerk me.

Edited by FupDup, 02 October 2013 - 09:16 AM.

[stjobe]

Wolfways, on 02 October 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

Yeah, i get that, but it has nothing to do with what i'm talking about so i have no idea why you keep bringing it up.

At this point, do you even know yourself what you're talking about?

Light 'mechs are hard to kill, yes, but that's because we have players that aim, not because they benefit more from double armour.

Wolfways, on 02 October 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

But the Atlas doesn't.
I really didn't think it was this hard to understand

Selective quoting again? Here's what I actually said:

Quote

No, the Jenner took the exact same ratio of shots to kill in TT as in MWO: One third as many shots need to hit the Jenner CT as needs to hit the Atlas CT.

A stock AS7-D-DC in MWO has 94 armour on the CT; in TT it has 47.
A stock JR7-F in MWO has 30 armour on the CT; in TT it has 15.

It's a simple 1:2 ratio, it takes twice as many shots to kill a certain 'mech in MWO as in TT - whether an Atlas, a Jenner, or a Catapult.

Since this is a simple 1:2 ratio for all 'mechs, claiming that light 'mechs benefit more from it is nonsensical; they too take twice as many hits to kill as their heavier brethren.

[Khobai]

Quote

As for "circle of death," that doesn't usually end very well for the light because it puts him in a predictable path for the enemy to line up their guns in anticipation of.

More like the "facehug of death" when a light will facehug you so you cant see him and if your allies shoot at him they often end up hitting you instead lol. That's one of the main reasons knockdown needs to be readded to the game because light mechs are allowed to be too reckless with regard to colliding with terrain and other mechs. I dont really consider knockdown to be a nerf though, because it was in the game before, and we always knew it would be back at some point.

There's also nothing wrong with light mechs brawling. They just shouldn't be better at it than medium mechs, and thats a huge problem right now. Between readding collisions and increasing torso internal structure, I feel that would put lights and mediums back into balance with eachother (maybe give mediums a bit of a speed increase as well). Additionally, scouting needs to be made an actual role, and an important one, so lights have something to do besides brawl.

But again... flat out nerfing lights isnt the way to go. Buffing mediums is a much better approach.

Edited by Khobai, 02 October 2013 - 09:25 AM.

[stjobe]

Khobai, on 02 October 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

Between readding collisions and increasing internal structure, I feel that would put lights and mediums back into balance.

I'm all for collision damage, knockdowns, and physical attacks, but it needs a sane implementation (read: no way near what we had in closed beta) before I'll even consider it.

As for increased internal structure, I'm still divided on that issue; it takes a while to kill stuff in a light as it is, adding more points to chew through would just make it harder to earn CB/XP for lights, and I'm not sure we need that.

[Livewyr]

Khobai, on 02 October 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

Anything you've read about lights in TT is irrelevant. MWO is not TT. Lights fill a completely different role in MWO because theyve been equalized with assaults.

They've been equalized with assaults (and in some cases raised above them due to broken hitboxes/hitreg) due to a lack of knockdowns. Where as Armor is a degrading defense, speed it not.

FupDup, on 02 October 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

You're forgetting lights like the Urbanmech or Hollander, which can't be strikers or scouts or guerilla fighters at all by their construction. If we get into Clan mechs we'll even see the devastating Adder and Cougar...most mechs intended for scouting don't carry 2 Large Pulse Lasers and 2 LRM10!


As for "circle of death," that doesn't usually end very well for the light because it puts him in a predictable path for the enemy to line up their guns in anticipation of. I enjoy it when enemy lights try to circle-jerk me.

Even then, they're not designed sprint through firefights and act like mini assaults..

How do I come to this conclusion?
Comparatively thin armor. One does not send their thinly armored mech out to a fight if they intend for it to slug it out with someone. (Unless it's the HBK IIC clan death sentence..)

I don't mind mechs streaking through the battlefield, that is there choice. I do mind that they don't have the risks associated with such behavior. (Assault defense has the built in risk- all that armor means you're a slow moving, easy-to-hit target...Light mech speed means... you have that speed until someone gets your leg, or you die...)

[Khobai]

Quote

As for increased internal structure, I'm still divided on that issue; it takes a while to kill stuff in a light as it is, adding more points to chew through would just make it harder to earn CB/XP for lights, and I'm not sure we need that.

Like I said it should only be increased on the torso. So it wouldnt help lights since everyone targets their legs.

Quote

Even then, they're not designed sprint through firefights and act like mini assaults..

You keep trying to apply TT rationale to MWO and that is your mistake. MWO is not TT. You need to stop thinking like that.

[stjobe]

Khobai, on 02 October 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

Like I said it should only be increased on the torso. So it wouldnt help lights since everyone targets their legs.

It's not lights as a target I'm worried about, it's lights' targets.

If that sentence made any sense whatsoever

[Livewyr]

Khobai, on 02 October 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

You keep trying to apply TT rationale to MWO and that is your mistake. MWO is not TT. You need to stop thinking like that.

I'm applying attributes of the mech to its role. If it looks like a duck, flies like a duck, and quacks like a duck.. I'd call it a duck.

(And btw: TT does have bearing on this game.. the engine they have in TT dictates what engine they can have in this game. ref: Raven 2X/4X engine caps)

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 02 October 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

More like the "facehug of death" when a light will facehug you so you cant see him and if your allies shoot at him they often end up hitting you instead lol. That's one of the main reasons knockdown needs to be readded to the game because light mechs are allowed to be too reckless with regard to colliding with terrain and other mechs. I dont really consider knockdown to be a nerf though, because it was in the game before, and we always knew it would be back at some point.

There's also nothing wrong with light mechs brawling. They just shouldn't be better at it than medium mechs, and thats a huge problem right now. Between readding collisions and increasing torso internal structure, I feel that would put lights and mediums back into balance with eachother (maybe give mediums a bit of a speed increase as well). Additionally, scouting needs to be made an actual role, and an important one, so lights have something to do besides brawl.

But again... flat out nerfing lights isnt the way to go. Buffing mediums is a much better approach.

Knockdowns "indirectly nerf" mediums too, specifically the Hunchback. Most Hunchies packing an AC/20 barely go over 80 kph, which puts them as the same speed as many heavies or even slower. They would be completely and utterly helpless if they encountered an enemy heavy in close range, sort of like this video depicts:


The really fast heavies like Quickdraws might even be a serious issue for the faster mediums. Mediums might actually get hit worse by knockdowns than lights. And then we also have the 80+ kph Victor that would bowl over most heavies in its path.


The point is, being able to "EMP" somebody on the sole basis that you're bigger might not end very well. There are definitely ways to penalize reckless driving other than stunlocks. My own suggestions are to increase the damage mechs receive from ramming (and allow damage from ramming the terrain), have all parties involved stop to 0% throttle for roughly one second (ample time to land a killshot), and shake up the cockpit like a min-earthquake.

For facehugging, that can be solved easily by allowing mechs to pitch their torsos further downwards (and thus shoot the hooligan in the face).

Edited by FupDup, 02 October 2013 - 09:49 AM.

[Wispsy]

I would like to point out that an Atlas can chose where to hit a Jenner just like a Jenner can chose to hit an Atlas...I mean an Atlas still has the whole convergence thing going on it does not suffer from random directions on its shots. The speed is not even that fast. An Atlas can 1shot a Jenner. Even with double armour. Do you have any idea how long a Jenner has to spend looking directly at an Atlas to core its CT? I think you need to try playing a light mech. See how much damage you manage to do running around all invulnerable with your massive dps...

I mean I get it, you are a fan of Assault mechs, but they do have more armour and bigger guns then everybody else. Just because you are failing to use them correctly does not mean every other weightclass needs to be nerfed further...


And speed is only a viable defense when your opponent cannot aim, unless you seriously outplay and outthink them, not equal skill. If they removed the speed cap so that mechs could move faster then torso/arms for bigger mechs then sure it is ok. But as it stands now the only reason a light mech does not get hit is because of two reasons, either he outplayed you and dodged as you fired, or you missed a shot due to either bad mouse control or lack of experience with weapon speeds.

You can 1 or 2shot a light mech, even in a light mech. Their armour has been doubled, ok. Weapon firing rates have been tripled. The Atlas gets double its armour too. The additional armour an Atlas gets is like more then the total armour a Jenner has now...

The only reason you are ever surviving a brawl in a light mech is because either the whole enemy team is using trackballs or you were simply ignored for juicier targets. I cannot believe you honestly think reducing their armour is a good idea...they are so weak compared to heavies and assaults right now. Is it really so far from you view of battletech that it breaks you to see lights needing 2 shots to go down instead of one? Whilst assaults take like 20 then start to think about maybe retreating soon.

[Wolfways]

stjobe, on 02 October 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

At this point, do you even know yourself what you're talking about?

Light 'mechs are hard to kill, yes, but that's because we have players that aim, not because they benefit more from double armour.


Selective quoting again? Here's what I actually said:



A stock AS7-D-DC in MWO has 94 armour on the CT; in TT it has 47.
A stock JR7-F in MWO has 30 armour on the CT; in TT it has 15.

It's a simple 1:2 ratio, it takes twice as many shots to kill a certain 'mech in MWO as in TT - whether an Atlas, a Jenner, or a Catapult.

Since this is a simple 1:2 ratio for all 'mechs, claiming that light 'mechs benefit more from it is nonsensical; they too take twice as many hits to kill as their heavier brethren.

Completely wrong.

[Artgathan]

Wolfways, on 02 October 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

Completely wrong.

Why is he completely wrong?

[stjobe]

Wolfways, on 02 October 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

Completely wrong.

Well argued.

I mean, hell, all those numbers, facts, and diagrams totally blew me away and I'm a convert now who'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Seriously, WTH.

Edited by stjobe, 02 October 2013 - 09:58 AM.

[3rdworld]

Lights need a buff if anything.

[tynothy drake]

3 things to consider.
#1: In TT the increased target numbers of high speed movement + availiblity of "better targets" both gave dramatically increase survivablity to light mechs. There is much more time to figure what mech you want to fire at and more battlefield vision to choose. In MWO tunnel vision takes over a lot. Therefore lights take more fire than they would in TT.

#2: With increased armor compared to weapon damage attackers are rewarded less by being good enough to occasionally hit a fast light mech Even a single AC/20 hit will hardly breach armor. In TT that good die roll on just the right weapon will make the light mech pilot regret quickly waking up that morning. That forementioned AC/20... goodbye.

#3: In direct comparison with the Atlas/Jenner scenerio, the biggest truth in both MWO and TT is if a Jenner gets into trouble, it runs/jumps away. If an Atlas gets into trouble... it stays in trouble.

None of points really are designed to say he's right/she's right. Just more things to consider on the choice of doubling armor.

[Vodrin Thales]

Livewyr, on 02 October 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

Like I said, armor values should be transferred directly (increases all the same) just bring back knockdowns.

All the quotes I see say lights are
"Recon" (Information)
"Guerrilla Fighters" (Ambushes, fading attacks)
"Strikers" (Fast attacks on weakpoints)

None of them say "high speed circle of death in the middle of a heavy duty firefight."

So if I light wants to risk himself in a circle of death in the middle of a firefight, more power to him- but watch where you're going! Jenner on its face in the middle of a heavy duty firefight has just "assumed the position."

I really don't want to see knockdowns come back as they are far too easy to abuse, but I really want to see the throttle reset to 0, and maybe have it take a moment before you can throttle up again after a collision. I'd also like to see damage from collisions be more in line with TT.

As for the main topic of this thread, please no. I one shot light mechs so often right now with my fire support mechs that any nerf to their armor would make them unplayable.

Another argument for the status quo: In TT if a large mech hits a light mech the damage is frequently spread to multiple locations. In MWO I regularly will hit one for 30-35 pinpoint damage on one panel. Even with double armor that will usually core or kill any light mech. I swear I one shot at least one commando every evening I play.

Edited by Vodrin Thales, 02 October 2013 - 10:39 AM.

[Livewyr]

Vodrin Thales, on 02 October 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

I really don't want to see knockdowns come back as they are far too easy to abuse, but I really want to see the throttle reset to 0, and maybe have it take a moment before you can throttle up again after a collision. I'd also like to see damage from collisions be more in line with TT.

I would like to see collisions return similar to how they were (in actually knocking mechs down, but without the dragon bowling advantage) but where it costs both sides dearly. Issue before was that damage didn't really happen much, but the knockdown was the damning part.

<soap box>
I think collisions should cause severe damage and consequences on a sliding scale.
Bump = a grinding noise for annoyance and nothing else.
Walking collision (combined 54 kph) up to 2.5pts damage (each) to two locations that collided (first) Ex: Jenner CT, atlas leg.
(30 kph .5dmg, 36kph 1dmg, 42kph 1.5dmg, 48kph 2dmg, 54kph 2.5damage)
"Jogging" collision (combined 84 kph) up to 5 points of damage to the two contact locations.
(60kph 3dmg, 66kph 3.5 dmg, 72kph 4dmg, 78kph 4.5dmg, 84kph 5dmg.)
Running collision (combined 114kph) up to 10 points of damage divided among 2 components each, not by connection necessarily, but by proximity/extremity. (Legs connect? Leg takes half, Arm of same side takes half.. or Side torso if arm is gone.) Staggered mechs. (maintains standing and regains posture over the course of 1-2 seconds, not moving until posture regained.)
(90kph 6dmg, 96 kph 7dmg, 102kph 8dmg, 108kph 9dmg, 114kph 10dmg)
Sprinting collision (combined 144kph) up to 20 points of damage divided amongst 2 locations each, as with running collision. Staggered mechs- 3-4 seconds.
(120kph 12dmg, 126kph 14dmg, 132kph 16dmg, 138kph 18dmg, 144kph 20dmg)
Ruinous collision (combined 174kph) up to 40 points of damage divided amongst 3 locations. (Leg, arm, side torso OR Leg(S) and Side Torso.. or maybe even Leg(13.3 dmg), Side Torso (13.3), CT (13.3)
Knocked down.
(150kph 24dmg, 156kph 28dmg, 162kph 32dmg, 168kph 36dmg, 174kph 40dmg)
Catastrophic collision (combined 204kph) up to 80 points of damage divided amongst 3 locations, as in Ruinous collisions.
Also Knocked down.
(180kph 48dmg, 186kph 56dmg, 192kph 64dmg, 198kph 72dmg, 204kph 80dmg)
Cataclysmic collision (combined 234kph) up to 160 points of damage divided amongst the entire mech (except head)
Also Knocked down.
(210kph 96dmg, 216kph 112dmg, 222kph 128dmg, 228kph 144dmg, 234kph 160dmg)
Apocalyptic collision (combined 264kph) 160dmg capped out. Knocked down, Pilots blackout for 5 seconds. (screen goes black)
Trollololol collision (combined 300kph) 160 dmg capped out. Knocked down. Pilots blackout for 10 seconds.

Jumpjets:
Any mech not touching the ground when hit for a combined 40 kph is Knocked down. Only the airborne mech(s)
This also reduces the damage to both mechs by 50%. (This can be an "oh ****" maneuver by a surprised JJ mech to mitigate damage.)

Collision speeds would be determined by the speed of both parties, and the percentage of the speed be delivered on the collision plane. (Two mechs that bump each other going the same direction at 150kph a piece are really only delivering about 20-30kph or so.. it would be determined by angle.)

Also, glancing collisions would be just that- glancing collisions. Bump/grind noise for annoyance, but no effect.

I think that's useful for some risk/reward play. Even weaponless mechs can do more than just cap.
</soapbox>

EDITS I didn't get to mention before:
If collisions happen at over 150 combined kph, both mechs are knocked down even if one is in the air damage is still halved though.
Angle of attack from above (DFA) would knock both mechs over if the combined speed is 40kph.

Edited by Livewyr, 02 October 2013 - 12:10 PM.