224 replies to this topic

[Nryrony]

Wolfways, on 05 October 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

You don't think that Commando's have good survivability? Isn't that what the whole "speed is life" thing is about?
lol maybe my opponents just suck, or i'm a better light pilot than i thought.

Unless you streak - shake/lock them they where bad. You don't have enough speed atm to doge much dmg.

Commando is a bit tougher to hit then a Jenner, but overall still relatively easy to hit. Especially compared to a Spider.

And concerning the Spider:

IF they stand still, they are easy prey - IF...

At least then I never had problems with hit detection - these days.


And let me say a final word to your "facts", I'm not sure what kinda game you want to play, or are playing, but if you want to stay closer to TT, play MW Tactics.

Edited by Nryrony, 05 October 2013 - 07:18 AM.

[Wolfways]

I'm not trying to be funny here. I thought that was how mechs worked, at least in MWO. Obviously in TT armour was more important.
But in MWO lights trade firepower for survivability, and assaults trade survivability for firepower. Isn't that right?

[Cybermech]

commando is officially the worst light in game for a while.
they used to have epic lag shield but now there easy pickings.
I'm being serious about that statement with I'm sure there are lot of people who agree with that.

commando vs jenner, the jenner wins since it has more laser hardpoints.
if you include boat using streaks it become even more one sided for the jenner.

I really can't remember the last time I have seen one tbh, its been a long time.
And I really don't think Commando is tougher to hit then a Jenner.
Commando is compact and those not have to small hit boxes the spider does.

Edit: if you go back to CB before skills unlocks buff wolf then you are correct.
had plenty of discussions about this a long time ago about the negative effects of increased skill unlocks.
the effects are in play and have been for a long time.
it why the paper-rock mentality was thrown out the door.

Edited by Cybermech, 05 October 2013 - 06:42 AM.

[Kaijin]

stjobe, on 05 October 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

a first-person, online PvP game, where each player controls a single 'mech, and sides are always equal in number.

A design flaw right there. Why must sides always be equal in number? Heck, In MPBT:Solaris, we'd have matches of 7 lights vs. 1 assault. Sometimes the lights would even win. If only I had a time machine...

[Kaijin]

Nryrony, on 05 October 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

concerning the Spider:

IF they stand still, they are easy prey - IF...

http://youtu.be/1CkiNvfy1vs

[Nryrony]

Wolfways, on 05 October 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

I'm not trying to be funny here. I thought that was how mechs worked, at least in MWO. Obviously in TT armour was more important.
But in MWO lights trade firepower for survivability, and assaults trade survivability for firepower. Isn't that right?

Thats not correct, compared to lights they lack speed, not surviveability. Compared to Heavys, they sacrifice speed for armor and hard points. Depending on the Heavy you pick, it has be better hard-point layout - Jagermech VS Atlas for example -> ballistic slots. But this is situational. Since the Atlas could also be brawling, in which case he would be more surviveable and have more firepower then the Jagermech at the same time.

Kaijin, on 05 October 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

http://youtu.be/1CkiNvfy1vs

Well i usually don't use SRMs, - or to be more precise, only an my Atlas as a backup weapon for brawling.

But ballistics and lasers seem to be fine.

LRMs - I'm not sure.

Kaijin, on 05 October 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

A design flaw right there. Why must sides always be equal in number? Heck, In MPBT:Solaris, we'd have matches of 7 lights vs. 1 assault. Sometimes the lights would even win. If only I had a time machine...

Because people will chose the more potent mech.
Hell, why chose to be of less value then someone else? - Did you ever ask your boss if he could lower your salary?
Sure for some this might be entreating, but the majority would simply roll with the biggest thing or "best" on the table.

Edited by Nryrony, 05 October 2013 - 06:59 AM.

[GoManGo]

The MWO mechs assaults/heavies/mediums are slow lethargic pigs the maneuver like {Scrap} and lights just have a field day slaughtering them already. Plus the fact the armor is weak and does not work well now on a lot of mechs plus the hitboxes on some are like barn doors(Awsome)etc.Then you want to place crappy TT values on top of the already bad ideas the devs have implemented so far? The mechs would die in like 5 seconds or 1-2 shots and the community would go more ballistic than it already is. The king of MWO is this crappy little spider not the true king the atlas----->>>>

[Nryrony]

Your right with the spider but wrong with the lights.

If a light catches you, alone, all by your self in your Assault mech, or even a heavy mech. And starts with stabbing you in the back (so we presume SS doesn't exist here...) you should lose the duel. Very simple.

(Meanwhile we got some nice light hunters - the blackjack and especially the Kintaro - boating streaks.)

But this isn't the chase. Today, your backstabbing capabilities depend on the stupidity of your enemy, as well as the lack of SS.

And since usually everyone blobbs, the light will be shoot into pieces before he can deal actual dmg.

Unless you play such an abomination you linked above...



Eh and the Atlas has a broken hitbox too, on his backside. It counts partially as a leg, making it harder to backstab.

Edited by Nryrony, 05 October 2013 - 07:20 AM.

[GoManGo]

Nryrony, on 05 October 2013 - 07:04 AM, said:

Your right with the spider but wrong with the lights.

If a light catches you, alone, all by your self in your Assault mech, or even a heavy mech. And starts with stabbing you in the back (so we presume SS doesn't exist here...) you should lose the duel. Very simple.

(Meanwhile we got some nice light hunters - the blackjack and especially the Kintaro - boating streaks.)

But this isn't the chase. Today, your backstabbing capabilities depend on the stupidity of your enemy, as well as the lack of SS.

And since usually everyone blobbs, the light will be shoot into pieces before he can deal actual dmg.

Unless you play such an abomination you linked above...

I would agree with you but the other day I was in a match 2 spiders and a Jenner took out 8 mechs I was one of the last standing in the group and watched it all.2 atlas-3 heavies-3 mediums it was just a frigging joke. Before the spider it was the raven 3L=OP PGI just wont listen and wont learn. I loaded up Mechwarrior4 Mercenaries and one of the first things I noticed was how maneuverable the mechs really were? MWO mechs move like farm tractors and MW4 mechs moved like sports cars? Plus you cant defend against what you cannot hit due to bad HSR-LAGG-ETC on spiders. Before the RAVEN 3L it was the Jenner? When is PGI/DEVS going to learn lights were never supposed to be OP and had roles=scouts and light harassers they were not killing machines of death unless they were battling other lights?

[stjobe]

Wolfways, on 05 October 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

But in MWO lights trade firepower for survivability, and assaults trade survivability for firepower. Isn't that right?

No, that's wrong.

Assaults don't trade survivability for firepower, they trade speed and maneuverability for armour and firepower. They are after all the units that take the most damage to kill (borked hit reg notwithstanding).

Lights trade armour and firepower for speed and maneuverability.
Assaults trade speed and maneuverability for armour and firepower.
Mediums should trade some armour and firepower for some speed and maneuverability.
Heavies should trade some speed and maneuverability for armour and firepower.

I say "should" in the case of mediums and heavies, since I believe mediums get the short stick on that balance, and heavies get the long stick - i.e. the heavies are better off than they should. Which can also be seen in that they comprise almost half of the 'mechs in a match, and the mediums are almost as rare as the lights.

But survivability is different things for different weight classes; for lights it is speed and maneuverability (the whole "speed is life" thing), for assaults it is armour, torso twist, and the ability to take the enemy out in a few shots - their massive firepower is actually a survivability trait, just like the light's speed and maneuverability is an offensive as well as defensive tool.

Edited by stjobe, 05 October 2013 - 07:28 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Wolfways, on 05 October 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

In that case then you don't disagree as i never said a light shouldn't be able to take on an assault. I'm saying lights should not be able to brawl so well that they replace mediums.
The game should be, imo, if you want to be fast and brawl use a medium. If you want to be even faster and a hit and run fighter choose a light mech.

1) Is that a problem of the light or the medium mech?

2) What, if not brawling, shoud a light do in combat, and how would nerfing their survivability would encourage that?

[Wispsy]

GoManGo, on 05 October 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

I would agree with you but the other day I was in a match 2 spiders and a Jenner took out 8 mechs I was one of the last standing in the group and watched it all.2 atlas-3 heavies-3 mediums it was just a frigging joke. Before the spider it was the raven 3L=OP PGI just wont listen and wont learn. I loaded up Mechwarrior4 Mercenaries and one of the first things I noticed was how maneuverable the mechs really were? MWO mechs move like farm tractors and MW4 mechs moved like sports cars? Plus you cant defend against what you cannot hit due to bad HSR-LAGG-ETC on spiders. Before the RAVEN 3L it was the Jenner? When is PGI/DEVS going to learn lights were never supposed to be OP and had roles=scouts and light harassers they were not killing machines of death unless they were battling other lights?

I have been in games like this. They either surrounded a lot of split up mechs and killed them off 1 by 1, likely whilst being on voice comms (yes if you surround a mech with multiple mechs of any size you will have a massive advantage and it is hard to not kill them before they kill you) or they spent the entire match being 100% ignored (which is stupid considering that a single shot on any component, except for empty arms, is enough to cripple them unless you have even less weapons then they do and they need to come exceedingly close to do any real damage to you).

The other option is that they stood infront of you and moved the shortest possible distance out of the way about 0.3/0.4 seconds before you shot. Every single time. If that happened, trust me, you would have lost no matter what mechs they were in.

The raven was OP because it was invulnerable on a whole new level, nowhere near like we see anything today and because it had magic ct seeking missiles that did stupid damage. The Jenner was king before that, because SSRMs where crazy and after dispatching the enemy light mechs in a couple of seconds you could then just turn and poptart with magic missiles. Did you know that back in that time, using a Jenner with 2xSSRM2 and 4 tons of ammo you could kill 8 people? The Spider is not king now. That is a dumb statement. Sometimes hits do not register (ironically currently the most common chassis that my hits do not register on right now is the Atlas but whatever) but it is a 1shottable mech with a maximum 19 point alpha? It is a troll mech nothing more. You would never see one used in any kind of serious competitive match and if I ever tried asking an Assault or Heavy to jump in a Spider to be more effective I would get laughed off whoevers teamspeak I was currently on.

Edit: Wolfways wants the game to only be balanced for people who suck and cannot aim. This would be ok if not for the fact that the longer a game lasts the higher the average level of skill among players gets. There is already an option available for those who cannot hit light mechs, called SSRMs. Ignoring the fact that already a large number of people can reliably get headshots, let alone hit light mechs (a number that will only increase until this game dies), he wants to go ahead and focus on having the game only balanced around people who are not only incompetent at aiming, but also chose not to take the option provided to cover for any difficulties one might experience whilst still learning the basics of aiming.

Edited by Wispsy, 05 October 2013 - 09:55 AM.

[Nryrony]

Do I really need to say more about pinpoint dmg to lights?

Edited by Nryrony, 05 October 2013 - 10:00 AM.

[mike29tw]

Nryrony, on 05 October 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

Do I really need to say more about pinpoint dmg to lights?

This is the second most hilarious screenshots of MWO I've seen. The first being someone got annihilated by LRM and lost all of his components but the cockpit during LRMaggedon.

Seriously, after reading through all these nonsense, I'm convinced that OP played two matches and went ForumWarrioring all the way 'til this day.

He apparently has no knowledge of how MWO works, nor does he want to learn the knowledge to improve his skill. Give it up boys, it's really a waste of time.

Wolfways, on 04 October 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

Yeah because locking on behind cover or out of range where you can't fire at the target is a huge benefit...
It's not like it takes ages to get a lock when you can fire.

Seriously, wtf.

[Kazairl]

The bigger the mech, the easier it is to kill. That should not be the case.

[Wolfways]

mike29tw, on 07 October 2013 - 01:32 AM, said:

Seriously, after reading through all these nonsense, I'm convinced that OP played two matches and went ForumWarrioring all the way 'til this day.

He apparently has no knowledge of how MWO works, nor does he want to learn the knowledge to improve his skill. Give it up boys, it's really a waste of time.

Actually i started in closed beta and i don't need to learn to improve, at least until the MM ever puts me with better players.
But i've given up trying to have a discussion about MWO as if it has even a remote chance of having anything to do with lights it becomes like trying to convince a religious zealot that there might not be a god.
I honestly don't care enough about the game to be bothered with this anymore.

[Gaan Cathal]

Wolfways, on 05 October 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

I'm not trying to be funny here. I thought that was how mechs worked, at least in MWO. Obviously in TT armour was more important.
But in MWO lights trade firepower for survivability, and assaults trade survivability for firepower. Isn't that right?

Kazairl, on 07 October 2013 - 01:45 AM, said:

The bigger the mech, the easier it is to kill. That should not be the case.

My god...is there actually an ELO band in which this holds true? I'm seriously trying to work out the circumstances under which it would be. People are good enough to aim consistently for a (largish) component, but unable to correctly distribute armour or defensive pilot? That seems to me like it would be a...narrow band. Or are these Assaults just rolling on down in the open and thus attracting all the attention while smaller, faster mechs are ignored? I can see that in the middle-of-range ELO band where there's a lot of new players (yes, you start in the middle).

How many © mechs do you generally see in a match?

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 07 October 2013 - 04:04 AM.

[3rdworld]

Gaan Cathal, on 07 October 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

My god...is there actually an ELO band in which this holds true? I'm seriously trying to work out the circumstances under which it would be. People are good enough to aim consistently for a (largish) component, but unable to correctly distribute armour or defensive pilot? That seems to me like it would be a...narrow band. Or are these Assaults just rolling on down in the open and thus attracting all the attention while smaller, faster mechs are ignored? I can see that in the middle-of-range ELO band where there's a lot of new players (yes, you start in the middle).

How many © mechs do you generally see in a match?

There isn't. Bad players projecting their perceived balance issues.

In 12s I have seen so many lights insta-legged or 2 shot, it isn't even funny. (wolfways argument against this was "can't prove you meant to shoot the spot that would kill the mech, herp derp").

It is just like people complaining about spiders. They do not do enough damage to even start to be a threat unless you are already orange CT internals. The only reason that mech is remotely viable is because of the lack of registration. As soon as it is fixed it will become an raven.

Wolfways, on 04 October 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

It isn't possible to prove you were actually aiming at a specific component and not just at the mech.

Ya, who would aim for the spot that would kill the mech, that would be illogical.

Edited by 3rdworld, 07 October 2013 - 05:27 AM.

[stjobe]

3rdworld, on 07 October 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

Ya, who would aim for the spot that would kill the mech, that would be illogical.

I had a beautiful moment yesterday, where I (in my COM-TDK) was in a fight with a Cicada; some of my team-mates crashed the party and scared the Cicada away, but not before I noticed his CT front was stripped of armour. So as he ran away to try and cap the point furthest from where we were on the map, I shadowed him, about 500m behind.

Sneaking up on him from his rear left quarter at the cap point I maneuvered so I could see his front CT and fired my four MLs. Kablooey, dead Cicada.

Granted, it was a Cicada and he was more or less stationary, but claiming that people can't aim at a specific section when they notice it is damaged is nothing short of dishonest.

[Wolfways]

stjobe, on 07 October 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

I had a beautiful moment yesterday, where I (in my COM-TDK) was in a fight with a Cicada; some of my team-mates crashed the party and scared the Cicada away, but not before I noticed his CT front was stripped of armour. So as he ran away to try and cap the point furthest from where we were on the map, I shadowed him, about 500m behind.

Sneaking up on him from his rear left quarter at the cap point I maneuvered so I could see his front CT and fired my four MLs. Kablooey, dead Cicada.

Granted, it was a Cicada and he was more or less stationary, but claiming that people can't aim at a specific section when they notice it is damaged is nothing short of dishonest.

Who would have thought you could aim at a single location on a stationary mech...