224 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

Wolfways, on 07 October 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

Who would have thought you could aim at a single location on a stationary mech...

Funny thing is - and I know this will seem like a flight of fancy to you - I do it just about every match on targets moving at anything from 50-150kph, while myself moving at 100-150kph.

Yeah. I'm just that good that when I see my target having no armour on his rear LT, I actually maneuver to get behind him, aim - and hit! - there.

I fully expect anyone that's played enough to have left Cadet status behind to be able to do the same.

[Wolfways]

stjobe, on 07 October 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

Funny thing is - and I know this will seem like a flight of fancy to you - I do it just about every match on targets moving at anything from 50-150kph, while myself moving at 100-150kph.

Yeah. I'm just that good that when I see my target having no armour on his rear LT, I actually maneuver to get behind him, aim - and hit! - there.

I fully expect anyone that's played enough to have left Cadet status behind to be able to do the same.

So, even ignoring that it's easier to do when you can move at the same speed, are you saying you can hit any component on a mech you choose to and not hit any other component?

[Kazairl]

Gaan Cathal, on 07 October 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

My god...is there actually an ELO band in which this holds true?

I play in it every night. My shots hit the parts I aim at on slow movers. They don't on lights. They usually don't register on lights unless they slow down. In my matches last mechs alive on the losing team are always lights.

[Nryrony]

Kazairl, on 07 October 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

I play in it every night. My shots hit the parts I aim at on slow movers. They don't on lights. They usually don't register on lights unless they slow down. In my matches last mechs alive on the losing team are always lights.

What kinda weapon do you use?

I find that ballistics are working very well now hitting lights, but often enough lasers still have issues with spiders.

Most of all, missiles (but not streaks) seem to have the biggest issues with lights.

[Krivvan]

Wolfways, on 07 October 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

So, even ignoring that it's easier to do when you can move at the same speed, are you saying you can hit any component on a mech you choose to and not hit any other component?

Every decent light pilot does that. Probably not perfectly, but enough to get the vast majority of damage onto one component (especially the Jenner CT). They're doing this while jumping, diving, and juking just as much as their targets, and you think an Assault wouldn't be capable of doing that?

[Gaan Cathal]

Wolfways, on 07 October 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

So, even ignoring that it's easier to do when you can move at the same speed, are you saying you can hit any component on a mech you choose to and not hit any other component?

I'd say that I'm hitting the intended compartment on a mech of my size (handy normalisation point) about 70-80% of the time, and I suffer from awkward ping fluctuations so I'd expect the really good pilots with stable ping and FPS to significantly exceed that. It's obvious both dependant on range and weapon, beam lasers being more awkward at longer ranges, and actually easier (for me) at shorter ranges for damage concentration.

I'm not good enough to reliably slap shots into cockpits at anything but fairly short range (and even then, only on certain mechs), but there are pilots that are good enough (although in this specific case a Light probably is significantly safer than an Assault).

Before SRM hit-dec was busted my standard approach with a Raven was to get behind a slow medium or bigger/slower anything not faster/more mobile than me and alpha the rear CT. That's an SRM6 (sometimes AIVed, lately not so much) and 3MLs and I'd only lightly yellow the ST armours. I'd say I was doing very badly if I put less than 20 of that 27 damage in their rear CT. If you're not forced by a combination of limited firepower and flimsiness to target rear armour it's if anything easier, the diaper on all mechs is CT, and no amount of torso twisting will spread damage off it, as long as it can be seen. There's an added advantage in targeting it if you're fighting Lights in that any damage splash will hit the legs, which can weaken them enough for a high-calibre ballistic/PPC to take the leg clean off and thus completely neuter the target.

Kazairl, on 07 October 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

I play in it every night. My shots hit the parts I aim at on slow movers. They don't on lights. They usually don't register on lights unless they slow down. In my matches last mechs alive on the losing team are always lights.

Out of interest, what weapons do you typically use? And, just because it's relevant, what is your ping/where do you play from?

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 07 October 2013 - 07:52 AM.

[Wolfways]

Krivvan, on 07 October 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

Every decent light pilot does that. Probably not perfectly, but enough to get the vast majority of damage onto one component (especially the Jenner CT). They're doing this while jumping, diving, and juking just as much as their targets, and you think an Assault wouldn't be capable of doing that?

But it's easier to hit say...the ct of an Atlas than the ct of a light right?

[Nryrony]

Wolfways, on 07 October 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

But it's easier to hit say...the ct of an Atlas than the ct of a light right?

Not necessarily, depends on your movement, distance, enemy movement and the mech you are facing (and the weapons you use).

Say a Victor, it has a actually a very slim CT hit-box a Catapults CT is a lot easier to hit, especially if both of them keep twisting.

A Jenners CT is easy to hit, yet a Ravens CT is difficult again (well placed ST).

Even a big Atlas can be very difficult, if you try to hit his rear CT and he keeps turning its very hard to hit the rear CT. -> because unlike other mechs his "behind" partially counts as legs, while its ST gives it decent protection.

Another good example is the Hunchback, he isn't even an assault mech, yet its ST is very easy to hit, especially if you compare him with a Centurion. (And this isn't funny at all.. its a very strong balance issue)

Edited by Nryrony, 07 October 2013 - 08:46 AM.

[Krivvan]

Wolfways, on 07 October 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

But it's easier to hit say...the ct of an Atlas than the ct of a light right?

Not really. As long as you can keep your reticule on target, you stand a good chance of hitting a Jenner's CT.

When an Atlas turns away from you and has its team covering its back, or has its back up against something you can't jump up and get an angle from, it becomes hard to consistently hit the same component, which is why it's so important for lights to travel in packs and for Assaults to travel with mechs that can support it.

It basically just depends on the situation.

[Wispsy]

Wolfways, on 07 October 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

But it's easier to hit say...the ct of an Atlas than the ct of a light right?

Some Atlas's make it very difficult for you to kill their ct without going through both their arms or side torsos first...

[Krivvan]

Wispsy, on 07 October 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Some Atlas's make it very difficult for you to kill their ct without going through both their arms or side torsos first...

Which is why you need the rest of your light lance to take advantage of the fact that the Atlas turned away from getting hit by you.

[Hikaru Shigeru]

"(Light mech Speed is an unlimited defensive mechanism not truly experienced in TT.)"
As a BT player since 1990, I have to disagree. I did a lot of 1:1 and lights vs assaults are not that easy in TT as it probably may sound.
Assuming the light 'Mech moves at least 10 squares, the attacking assault gets a +4 malus to hit rolls. Now lets assume we have an average pilot with piloting 5 and targeting 4, you'll need to roll at least 8 (with 2D6) and that doesn't take weapon range modifiers into account. If the assault fires with weapons over medium distance another +2 malus are added to the roll. And that doesn't even add bonuses to terrain, but now the assault player has to roll 10 to hit. Maybe the assault moved (okay, now thats something you really don't do against lights, I know), another +1 malus ...
IF you hit with a ppc, or gauss or probably a heavy laser, the Light is usually toast, yes. But getting to that point is not that easy, if you're not lucky with initiative rolls.
Sorry for being offtopic here.

[Nryrony]

Wispsy, on 07 October 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Some Atlas's make it very difficult for you to kill their ct without going through both their arms or side torsos first...

Same deal with Stalkers, however they are a bit easier overall, but if they have a high wall behind them, protecting their backside, you should probably better run unless they are hurt-en pretty bad already.

[Gaan Cathal]

Wolfways, on 07 October 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

But it's easier to hit say...the ct of an Atlas than the ct of a light right?

If the light is a Jenner? Eh, about equal.

[stjobe]

Wolfways, on 07 October 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

So, even ignoring that it's easier to do when you can move at the same speed

Move at the same speed as what? The light I'm attacking head on, or the assault I'm attacking from behind? The slow-moving Jenner or the full-tilt Victor? If anything it should be easier to hit targets from a slow moving assault, since then you won't need to compensate for your own speed and movement nearly as much.

Wolfways, on 07 October 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

are you saying you can hit any component on a mech you choose to and not hit any other component?

Basically, yes, that's what I'm saying. Not 100% of the time of course, since I'm likely travelling at close to 150kph and maneuvering, and the target is probably also moving and maneuvering (and I'm not that good a shot - not like some of the players I play against...), but it's not nearly as hard to achieve as you are trying to make it sound. I'd say that more often than not I can hit whatever location I choose on any kind of target, although some damage may spill over to neighbouring sections if the sections are really small.

And on a related note: Generally it's harder to hit a damaged location on an assault who doesn't want to expose that location than it is to hit one on a light that doesn't want to expose it. The assault can just shield the location using e.g. torso twisting, movement, terrain, using its other armour to absorb my damage, patiently waiting for a chance to shoot back (one good shot is all it takes), but the light cannot; it will soon take enough damage to other locations that it wants to break off the engagement, which will give me a shot at the damaged section.

So yeah, I don't get this all "lights are so hard to hit twice in a row in the same location" - who cares, as long as you hit them anywhere, you're probably doing enough to make them think twice about pushing the attack.

Edited by stjobe, 07 October 2013 - 01:17 PM.

[Pht]

Giving the light mechs less armor in a "pick your part and get it" (when the netcode is working properly) game play mechanic will drive the light 'mechs out of higher level play, and a large percentage of the people who pay for the game are in high level play.

I don't expect PGI to debuff the light mech armor levels. From what I can see, they may even push them even higher, if a few comments from the previous NGNG podcasts are an indicator of their thinking.

[ShinVector]

Nryrony, on 07 October 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

Not necessarily, depends on your movement, distance, enemy movement and the mech you are facing (and the weapons you use).

Say a Victor, it has a actually a very slim CT hit-box a Catapults CT is a lot easier to hit, especially if both of them keep twisting.

A Jenners CT is easy to hit, yet a Ravens CT is difficult again (well placed ST).

Even a big Atlas can be very difficult, if you try to hit his rear CT and he keeps turning its very hard to hit the rear CT. -> because unlike other mechs his "behind" partially counts as legs, while its ST gives it decent protection.

Another good example is the Hunchback, he isn't even an assault mech, yet its ST is very easy to hit, especially if you compare him with a Centurion. (And this isn't funny at all.. its a very strong balance issue)

Actually go to disagree on the Atlas rear CT part. Got to aim for the diaper aka bu*tt aka a*ss..
That part just cannot turn fast enough.
Same goes for the front CT.. A mech might charge you torso twisted to protect their weak front CT...
Shoot these guy in the diaper aka crotch aka di*ck... That's their front CT.

However, for my case since I lag so, much even though I see myself shooting the bu*tt of an atlas... Later the game tells me, I was shooting the leg. Oh well.

[Kazairl]

Gaan Cathal, on 07 October 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

Out of interest, what weapons do you typically use? And, just because it's relevant, what is your ping/where do you play from?

My most used weapons are PPCs, MedLasers and LRMs. Average ping is 250-300ms.

I find the PPCs are the most effective for light mechs, because they put all their damage on to the target in the brief moments when they run into something. Lasers just make them glow red rather than hurting them.

[Nryrony]

Kazairl, on 07 October 2013 - 08:09 PM, said:

My most used weapons are PPCs, MedLasers and LRMs. Average ping is 250-300ms.

I find the PPCs are the most effective for light mechs, because they put all their damage on to the target in the brief moments when they run into something. Lasers just make them glow red rather than hurting them.

The heat aside, PPCs are nice weapons, however, if you miss it will hurt. And the range/dmg drop off seems a bit ridicules, not to mention that regular PPCs have their min range.

Lasers are actually very good vs lights, unless try to hit a spider, they ignore 90% of its dmg.

LRMs are a bit broken, spider ignore them, I saw Jenners not taking hits recently - yet I seem to be not so "lucky".

If you got the chance put in streaks with BAP, they are a real threat now for lights. In addition, if you salvo fire, targeting gets very difficult for them

[Krivvan]

Nryrony, on 07 October 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

LRMs are a bit broken, spider ignore them, I saw Jenners not taking hits recently - yet I seem to be not so "lucky".

You need to turn and/or jump right to avoid LRM damage out in the open.