84 replies to this topic

[mogs01gt]

and sitting there taking pop shots at the other team? I cant figure it out. Are these bots or actual people doing this because it shows no intelligence or game awareness at all.

Typcially I get behind the other team and its too late, by then its 8 kills for the opposing team. I see it constantly and I really feel like its bots.

Like my last game on Frozen City Night in my Spider. I ask for someone to come with me through the tunnel......Of course I get no response and everyone goes to the middle. By the time I make it to their base, 5 kills for their team.......Same thing with Caustic Valley.


This game can be very frustrating...

Mogs

Edited by mogs01gt, 15 January 2014 - 11:07 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

That will sadly happen as people are eager for kills and rushing into a brawl. However, holding the center of the map is usally a bad idea unless you have a proper set up or a premade that knows what it's doing. For instance in caustic valley holding the Caldera up top is almost never a good idea, unless you're running cool builds and the enemy is dumb enough to try and charge. An outward facing circle formation usually wins in that situation.

On the other hand, if a team lets you take center, they can encircle you and use the terrain to pop up and kill you before you can retaliate.

I digress. What you might want to do is drop with groups, or friends, that way you can have a better game experience. I would love to drop with you if you want.

Also, here's a list of TeamSpeak servers http://mwomercs.com/...e-chat-servers/

You can find many people there to drop with. I find that teamwork generally enhances the experience and helps lessen the impact of stupidity. Since if you're dropping as a 4 comp, that means the rest of your team only has 8 pilots that can go stupid instead of 11. Sometimes all it takes is 1 {Dezgra}, but even then, you'll have a much better experience with a group.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 15 January 2014 - 11:17 AM.

[Bhelogan]

mogs01gt, on 15 January 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

I cant figure it out. Are these bots or actual people doing this ...

The bots would be smarter than that. Sadly, many new players will do this. Sometimes there is a legitimate defensive point somewhere near the map. Other times though, people try to setup somewhere where they have been trained that they can still return to base if someone tries to cap. Or sometimes it is a 4 man premade of assaults who just figure they will go where they want to, and dare anyone to try and stop them (this is fun sometimes to do).

[990Dreams]

The tactic is that you hope your team is smart and can fight enough to slaughter the enemy.

[Buckminster]

I also think that you run into a lot of players that aren't as interested in strategy as they are in the pew pew.

Run as fast as you can to the enemy and start shooting, get killed, disconnect, rinse and repeat.

[mogs01gt]

Bhelogan, on 15 January 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

The bots would be smarter than that. Sadly, many new players will do this. Sometimes there is a legitimate defensive point somewhere near the map. Other times though, people try to setup somewhere where they have been trained that they can still return to base if someone tries to cap. Or sometimes it is a 4 man premade of assaults who just figure they will go where they want to, and dare anyone to try and stop them (this is fun sometimes to do).

The worst is when I'll call out, 3 in d3 or whatever and my team still goes to the same spot in the middle of the map.... I can sit back and watch them get flanked.......

Buckminster, on 15 January 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

I also think that you run into a lot of players that aren't as interested in strategy as they are in the pew pew.

Run as fast as you can to the enemy and start shooting, get killed, disconnect, rinse and repeat.

This is exactly what they do

Edited by mogs01gt, 15 January 2014 - 01:34 PM.

[Appogee]

mogs01gt, on 15 January 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

I cant figure it out. Are these bots or actual people doing this because it shows no intelligence or game awareness at all.

The human player base is only about a dozen, so you have to be lucky to have any actual humans beside yourself in a match.

However, I think the devs have done a pretty good job of simulating other players and creating a virtual popular game experience. The simulated whining and trash talking in chat really does make it feel like there are other humans in the game.

They do need to put a little more work into simulating humans, though. For example, the bots could hit the R key more often, flank every now and then, boat fewer LRMs, and actually cap points in Conquest mode instead of team deathmatching all the time.

[mogs01gt]

Appogee, on 15 January 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

The human player base is only about a dozen, so you have to be lucky to have any actual humans beside yourself in a match.
However, I think the devs have done a pretty good job of simulating other players and creating a virtual popular game experience. The simulated whining and trash talking in chat really does make it feel like there are other humans in the game.
They do need to put a little more work into simulating humans, though. For example, the bots could hit the R key more often, flank every now and then, boat fewer LRMs, and actually cap points in Conquest mode instead of team deathmatching all the time.

LMAO

[AaronWolf]

Appogee, on 15 January 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

The human player base is only about a dozen, so you have to be lucky to have any actual humans beside yourself in a match.

However, I think the devs have done a pretty good job of simulating other players and creating a virtual popular game experience. The simulated whining and trash talking in chat really does make it feel like there are other humans in the game.

They do need to put a little more work into simulating humans, though. For example, the bots could hit the R key more often, flank every now and then, boat fewer LRMs, and actually cap points in Conquest mode instead of team deathmatching all the time.

Such sarcasm. Much funny. Wow.

mogs01gt, on 15 January 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

and sitting there taking pop shots at the other team? I cant figure it out. Are these bots or actual people doing this because it shows no intelligence or game awareness at all.

Typcially I get behind the other team and its too late, by then its 8 kills for the opposing team. I see it constantly and I really feel like its bots.

Like my last game on Frozen City Night in my Spider. I ask for someone to come with me through the tunnel......Of course I get no response and everyone goes to the middle. By the time I make it to their base, 5 kills for their team.......Same thing with Caustic Valley.


This game can be very frustrating...

Mogs

Play with a group, it will make your life so much easier.

PUG's are kinda always DERP DERP. Assume their DERP DERP at any given moment, and you will be fine.

Get on a TS or find some people to run with on here! Will run some drops with you if you want when I got my PC up and not using my brothers.

[IraqiWalker]

Appogee, on 15 January 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

The human player base is only about a dozen, so you have to be lucky to have any actual humans beside yourself in a match.

However, I think the devs have done a pretty good job of simulating other players and creating a virtual popular game experience. The simulated whining and trash talking in chat really does make it feel like there are other humans in the game.

They do need to put a little more work into simulating humans, though. For example, the bots could hit the R key more often, flank every now and then, boat fewer LRMs, and actually cap points in Conquest mode instead of team deathmatching all the time.

My god, he found out about the bots!

In all honesty though, that pretty much sums it up. LMAO.

[Nick Makiaveli]

It mostly boils down to the fact that there are people who just want to fight. No strategy (don't dare try to cap), no tactics (flanking, focusing fire, and using TS are all cheating), just charge and fight.

Add in the new players who have no clue so just follow the Big Ball O' Death.

Pre-mades, are not all equal. Some are random people who got together on a public server and thus are little better than PUGs. Others are the ones you see trying to flank or cap rushing once they realize they are losing the brawl.

Your best bet is to either try to cap (base or resource points) or run around sniping hoping to score a kill before you die.

Protip: For bonus Cool Points, stay alive when everyone is screaming at you to just quit, then screenshot and report all the people who break the CoC by telling the enemy what/where you are.

[DONTOR]

It seems to happen more on the small maps that werent meant for 12 players to begin with (original maps). There isnt much room to maneuvere so they just mash up in the middle and yes it can be frustrating.

[JigglyMoobs]

mogs01gt, on 15 January 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

and sitting there taking pop shots at the other team? I cant figure it out. Are these bots or actual people doing this because it shows no intelligence or game awareness at all.

Typcially I get behind the other team and its too late, by then its 8 kills for the opposing team. I see it constantly and I really feel like its bots.

Like my last game on Frozen City Night in my Spider. I ask for someone to come with me through the tunnel......Of course I get no response and everyone goes to the middle. By the time I make it to their base, 5 kills for their team.......Same thing with Caustic Valley.


This game can be very frustrating...

Mogs

The other players are not being stupid. The game is actually teaching you something basic about strategy and tactics: timing and distance matters, quality also matters.

No one bothers sneaking around to the other side because it takes too long. Let's say half of your team followed you through the tunnels on Frozen City while the rest went to the line in the middle of the map. Let's say that all 12 of the other team went to the line and realized that half of your team went tunnel. Immediately they would realize that they outnumber your team 2:1 on the line. As you trundle through the tunnel on your way to what you think is a perfect flank, they just push forward to their immediate front and kill all six of your team mates at the line. If they are good this would take them 30 seconds, taking minimal losses.

Now you've finally made your way through tunnel, and try to hit them "from the rear". Unfortunately, they've just finished killing all of your team mates and they still outnumber you about 2:1. Each of their mechs now do a 180 degree rotation in place, and now they have a perfect firing line set up for you and your mates. Worse, you probably walked one by one out of that tunnel. By the time you make contact with them you are in a blob with some lengthwise distribution that means that each of you will get into contact in a sequence, not all together. Unfortunately, they are in a firing line, positioned perfectly to focus their fires on each of you in turn as you come into range. It will be over in another few seconds. Most likely with a score of 12:2 or something lopsided like that.

A simple flank to the rear doesn't work most of the time in MWO, as it doesn't actually work in real life either. It takes much more coordination. The guys you leave on the line has to know how to choose a location where they can hold off an enemy force that outnumbers them 2:1 for long enough for you and your mates to get out of that tunnel, get into formation, and start pushing the enemy team from the rear. Pretty tough if your are not on voice comms and almost impossible if your guys are not at least as good, skill wise, as the guys on the other team.

Individual skill, small unit tactics, and coordinate trumps more complicated strategies in this game. The latter can happen, but you need to learn to plan, execute it on the fly as the battle situation develops. You also need to adapt to the situation.

In other words, the "strategy" that works in this game, as in real life, is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 15 January 2014 - 03:13 PM.

[Void Angel]

mogs01gt, on 15 January 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

and sitting there taking pop shots at the other team? I cant figure it out. Are these bots or actual people doing this because it shows no intelligence or game awareness at all.

Typcially I get behind the other team and its too late, by then its 8 kills for the opposing team. I see it constantly and I really feel like its bots.

Like my last game on Frozen City Night in my Spider. I ask for someone to come with me through the tunnel......Of course I get no response and everyone goes to the middle. By the time I make it to their base, 5 kills for their team.......Same thing with Caustic Valley.


This game can be very frustrating...

Mogs

[Parliment]

Also you will notice that most of the bloodthirsty run to the middle and die people, have a blue fist next to the name!

[AaronWolf]

supernachos, on 15 January 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

Also you will notice that most of the bloodthirsty run to the middle and die people, have a blue fist next to the name!

That is only because they are on regular doses of Acid. Too much money. Too much drugs. O>O

Edited by AaronWolf, 15 January 2014 - 03:42 PM.

[mogs01gt]

JigglyMoobs, on 15 January 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

The other players are not being stupid. The game is actually teaching you something basic about strategy and tactics: timing and distance matters, quality also matters.No one bothers sneaking around to the other side because it takes too long. Let's say half of your team followed you through the tunnels on Frozen City while the rest went to the line in the middle of the map. Let's say that all 12 of the other team went to the line and realized that half of your team went tunnel. Immediately they would realize that they outnumber your team 2:1 on the line. As you trundle through the tunnel on your way to what you think is a perfect flank, they just push forward to their immediate front and kill all six of your team mates at the line. If they are good this would take them 30 seconds, taking minimal losses.Now you've finally made your way through tunnel, and try to hit them "from the rear". Unfortunately, they've just finished killing all of your team mates and they still outnumber you about 2:1. Each of their mechs now do a 180 degree rotation in place, and now they have a perfect firing line set up for you and your mates. Worse, you probably walked one by one out of that tunnel. By the time you make contact with them you are in a blob with some lengthwise distribution that means that each of you will get into contact in a sequence, not all together. Unfortunately, they are in a firing line, positioned perfectly to focus their fires on each of you in turn as you come into range. It will be over in another few seconds. Most likely with a score of 12:2 or something lopsided like that.A simple flank to the rear doesn't work most of the time in MWO, as it doesn't actually work in real life either. It takes much more coordination. The guys you leave on the line has to know how to choose a location where they can hold off an enemy force that outnumbers them 2:1 for long enough for you and your mates to get out of that tunnel, get into formation, and start pushing the enemy team from the rear. Pretty tough if your are not on voice comms and almost impossible if your guys are not at least as good, skill wise, as the guys on the other team.Individual skill, small unit tactics, and coordinate trumps more complicated strategies in this game. The latter can happen, but you need to learn to plan, execute it on the fly as the battle situation develops. You also need to adapt to the situation.In other words, the "strategy" that works in this game, as in real life, is this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop

What you are sort of describing is the "poke" meta of this game Sadly it over shadows mechs are built as brawlers. Until lasers and missles are up to par with ballistics, the pop shooting probably wont change for a while.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

You want to kill me, I want to kill you, we both want c-bills and the quicker the better. Stomping around too much is boring.

[Void Angel]

Actually, I blame Jump Snipers. I had a whole dissertation about this that I painstakingly laid out, then clicked the wrong tab to close and lost all my work. So here's the summary. The problem is a domino effect between three parts of the game. I'm not attempting or intending to lay out or account for the entire state of the game here, but these are the controlling factors of the problem, in my view:

• Jump Snipers are still too strong. Jump jet shake helped a little, but mostly weeded out the copycat scrubs - you can still jump snipe effectively by letting off the jets. Similarly, the nerfs to high-alpha weapons and builds did help, but not enough. Players simply started using different weapons with the same jump sniping mechanic.
  
• The nerfs to high-alpha weapons did help Dakka 'mechs, though! They're stronger than ever, and are becoming more and more common on the battlefield.
  
• The rise of Dakka has resulted in longer engagement ranges for longer periods of time, contributing to a resurgence of LRM boats.
  
• Brawlers, on the other hand, have it tough right now. All of the above roels excel at punishing 'mechs for moving over open ground, which is unavoidable unless you manage to sneak up on an enemy who's not paying attention. It's even worse if you're a large, slow brawler - which is just the kind of 'mech you need to counter large, slow, high-alpha snipers.

All of this has the effect of encouraging long-range builds and discouraging close-range builds by discouraging the brawler role (particularly heavy-combat, non-XL assaults.) People (particularly less skilled or experienced players) can feel punished for leaving cover - which is why you see people increasingly refusing to do it at all. There's a reason the OP mentioned Frozen City - Coward's Ridge on that map is the textbook example of this kind of behavior. They feel safe in their hidey-holes, and that ridgeline blocking their line of sight is ever so scary...

Now, it's not hopeless -although it is occasionally very frustrating. I still play brawlers in PuGs and I can still do well. But in order to make a brawler work, you often have to opt out of much of the fight and hope that your teammates don't fold. You're basically guarding against any pushes from the other side and hoping that all the Dakka 'mechs, LurmWarriors, and Snipers will whittle each other down enough for you to be effective later in the match.

[JigglyMoobs]

mogs01gt, on 15 January 2014 - 04:45 PM, said:

What you are sort of describing is the "poke" meta of this game Sadly it over shadows mechs are built as brawlers. Until lasers and missles are up to par with ballistics, the pop shooting probably wont change for a while.

It doesn't have much really to do with pop-tarting. A coordinated team of fast brawlers moving under ECM cover can pull off what I described equally well.

I support strengthening lasers but buffing LRMs vs ballistics and PPCs make zero sense to me. Where is the skill in using a weapon that requires no aim, no real maneuvering, no exposure to danger? All someone has to do is put together a build in the mech bay and then keep holding down fire.

Also, it seems to me that poptarts are very strong at the moment because lasers in particular have HSR issues and large assault mechs that can take the fight to the JJ equipped assaults have serious mobility issues because of the terrain engine slowing people down at every turn.

If the Atlas could move better over terrain, if lasers and SRMs hit well, and if a gigantic arrow popped up on screen pointing at the mech that the lance leader is shooting at for each lance, you'd have much fewer issues taking on pop tarts and coordinated teams. Yes, coordinated teams of poptarts on voice comms would still have a serious advantage, but IMO people who do that deserve an advantage from putting in the extra effort to achieve better coordination, and having the necessary skill to "pop-tart" effectively.

To be successful, a game needs to allow new players to be effective and climb the ladder rapidly, but it also needs to reward skill and depth. I feel like too many times, people are complaining about "balance" when what they are really saying is that they want easy and safe. Well, what's the fun in that?

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 15 January 2014 - 06:04 PM.