575 replies to this topic

[Kunae]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 October 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

Depends which way the Juke.

Rofl.

[Blacksoul1987]

Blacksoul1987, on 03 October 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

I don't really agree with that without ghost heat I would boat ppc's they only upped the heat by 1 pt 4ppc's at current heat would be significantly cooler than most of the builds I ran in MW4 ghost heat is only reason why I don't do that.

the thing is though that doesn't really matter cause they were never used for sustained fire it was used to pop out from around a corner and alpha strike everything and return to cover even with 4 erppc that isn't any hotter than the 6erlgl madcat or 7erlgl nova cat or 6erlgl 2 gauss daishi builds that I used often in MW4. ghost heat made it not worthwhile to do that anymore.

[Fut]

Kunae, on 03 October 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

The atlas really only has to hit the light solid, once.

Again it comes down to skill. An atlas that has the skill to hit a fast moving target, vs a light that has the skill to precisely place his shots while using his speed and agility to avoid getting hit too solidly. It should be a toss-up.

Agreed.
Although, any light-pilot worth their salt would be able to avoid the firing arc on an Atlas if they didn't have to worry about other Mechs (and they weren't fighting in a barren wasteland).

[Cybermech]

I'm nearly sure streaks was balanced around jenners.
if you been here long enough then you know spiders are a different class

I tested it out there, will continue all day with no skill unlocks KTO-18.
My first 2 games were lolz, getting stuck in things with out skill unlocks is not a nice thing at all
The rest have been about 300-400 damage with very little kills.
Engaging a raven on small mountain, he had no front armor and did not kill him we won by cap but got 3-4 volleys into him.
Just player a game with lots of enemy lights and tbh the damage being recorded was not high at all.
Once lights move about including up and over hills also passing you by don't seem to do much.

It has xl350, 2x ML, 5x streaks, 5x tonnes of ammo, 11 DHS, Ams, Bap, 365 armor.
It does do easy damage but it is spread out so I'm still not seeing the picture being painted here.

Still Kunae ty for taking the time discussing this topic and replying to so many comments.

Edited by Cybermech, 03 October 2013 - 07:26 AM.

[Kunae]

Blacksoul1987, on 03 October 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

the thing is though that doesn't really matter cause they were never used for sustained fire it was used to pop out from around a corner and alpha strike everything and return to cover even with 4 erppc that isn't any hotter than the 6erlgl madcat or 7erlgl nova cat or 6erlgl 2 gauss daishi builds that I used often in MW4. ghost heat made it not worthwhile to do that anymore.

A 4x ERPPC stalker has a heat-cap of 65.4 with 21 DHS.

4x ERPPCs generate 60 heat per firing. With the residual heat from movement and the base map heat you will shut-down and take heat damage with every firing.

Fut, on 03 October 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

Agreed.
Although, any light-pilot worth their salt would be able to avoid the firing arc on an Atlas if they didn't have to worry about other Mechs (and they weren't fighting in a barren wasteland).

Assuming the atlas pilot isn't just as good. Good atlas pilots, in a well built mech, just snack on most lights, assuming they don't have to worry about other mechs.

There are getting to be some really skilled assault pilots out there.

Cybermech, on 03 October 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

I'm nearly sure streaks was balanced around jenners.
if you been here long enough then you know spiders are a different class

I tested it out there, will continue all day with no skill unlocks KTO-18.
My first 2 games were lolz, getting stuck in things with out skill unlocks is not a nice thing at all
The rest have been about 300-400 damage with very little kills.
Engaging a raven on small mountain, he had no front armor and did not kill him we won by cap but got 3-4 volleys into him.
Just player a game with lots of enemy lights and tbh the damage being recorded was not high at all.
Once lights move about including up and over hills also passing you by don't seem to do much.

It has xl350, 2x ML, 5x streaks, 5x tonnes of ammo, 11 DHS, Ams, Bap, 365 armor.
It does do easy damage but it is spread out so I'm still not seeing the picture being painted here.

Still Kunae ty for taking the time discussing this topic and replying to so many comments.

Thanks for taking the time to do some testing. I'd like to, but I'm out of MC's and am very wary about paying for more, right now, just to buy some mechbays for Kintaros.

[Blacksoul1987]

I will override auto shutdown just like I did in MW4 I use the override auto shutdown very frequently and the core damage was nothing compared the devastation you laid out with each alpha

[Kunae]

Blacksoul1987, on 03 October 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

I will override auto shutdown just like I did in MW4 I use the override auto shutdown very frequently and the core damage was nothing compared the devastation you laid out with each alpha

I encourage you to try this. I think you will kill yourself from override damage long before you kill any enemy.

[Fut]

Kunae, on 03 October 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

Assuming the atlas pilot isn't just as good. Good atlas pilots, in a well built mech, just snack on most lights, assuming they don't have to worry about other mechs.

There are getting to be some really skilled assault pilots out there.

Suppose we'll have to agree to disagree here.
With all variables being equal, I'd bet on mobility over firepower any day.

Blacksoul1987, on 03 October 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

I will override auto shutdown just like I did in MW4 I use the override auto shutdown very frequently and the core damage was nothing compared the devastation you laid out with each alpha

This is why MWO needs to have actual heat penalties...

Edited by Fut, 03 October 2013 - 07:46 AM.

[Blacksoul1987]

you do not override to continue firing you override so you don't shutdown before you get back to cover and you don't pop out again until you are cooled down I've done this for years in mw4 not exactly theory craft and people were doing this in beta for mwo dozens of videos showing it and prior to ghost heat the concept was exactly the same as in MW4.

[Kunae]

Blacksoul1987, on 03 October 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

you do not override to continue firing you override so you don't shutdown before you get back to cover and you don't pop out again until you are cooled down I've done this for years in mw4 not exactly theory craft and people were doing this in beta for mwo dozens of videos showing it and prior to ghost heat the concept was exactly the same as in MW4.

This isn't MW4. MWO has been jimmying with the heat damage penalties, and overriding damage can be pretty severe and arbitrary now.

Fut, on 03 October 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

Suppose we'll have to agree to disagree here.
With all variables being equal, I'd bet on mobility over firepower any day.

I'd like to think that as well, but it'd be a bit of bravado. I've run into some very good pilots in heavies and assaults that seem to be, but in no way am I accusing them of, using aim-bots. Whups! There went my leg.

Edited by Kunae, 03 October 2013 - 07:56 AM.

[Blacksoul1987]

i'm telling you that without ghost heat the penalties were inconsequential I know this isn't mw4 but game style worked same high heat cap low dissipation right now running 4 erppc would be suicidal but back before ghost heat it wasn't even uncommon some people ran 6 erppc

[Kunae]

Blacksoul1987, on 03 October 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

i'm telling you that without ghost heat the penalties were inconsequential I know this isn't mw4 but game style worked same high heat cap low dissipation right now running 4 erppc would be suicidal but back before ghost heat it wasn't even uncommon some people ran 6 erppc

And back then, ERPPC heat was 11 per, iirc. And the 6x ERPPC stalker was a gimmick build back then, which any serious player wouldn't take, except maybe once in awhile, for the lulz.

[Blacksoul1987]

it was 13 heat before only got raised 2 points and yes the 6 erppc was gimmick build the the 4erppc wasn't

[Kunae]

Back on topic.

So, as a compromise, what could PGI change to make SSRMs a bit more balanced, for the moment? We've had a few good suggestions:

The simplest appears to be dropping SSRM damage down to ~2.0. Although I don't think it will really fix the core problem, I would be willing to try it out to see.

Another suggestion would be to have locks break after each firing. While this would be closer to fixing them, in my opinion, I don't think PGI can put such a change in, in any near time-frame.

Returning SSRM behavior to Closed Beta performance. While I think this would be the best solution, as they seemed balanced back then, I am not sure PGI would be willing to make such a change.

Any others that I missed, or haven't been presented yet?

Edited by Kunae, 03 October 2013 - 08:17 AM.

[Blacksoul1987]

I don't really think they are overpowered but I do think they should set damage to 2 cause eventually we are going to get ssrm6 and well something is going to have to change.

[PropagandaWar]

PPC heats fine where its at. Ghost heats debatable but everyone suffers from it soooo. Yeah. Don't overload your garbage build. if you want to argue ERPPC's at 15 heat it we'll go back to "Consistancy and Immersion". Clan ERPPC's will do 15 damge for 15 heat. Well at least they should. This isn't some fly by game with no history. I don't want uac 5's dealing 10 point auto shots one week then 8 then next. Just like as I stated in previos pages I hate the 2.5 streak damage for more than them doing more than their fire and forget counterparts. It's immersion. A bullet from a M16 doesn't do any less or more damage week to week game weapons shouldn't either. This is no longer beta the weapons should be fleshed out and the damage models left alone.

When CW comes in the game will develop a "history" of sorts and planets will be won with these weapons. Having them change from week to week takes away from that immersion.

Edited by PropagandaWar, 03 October 2013 - 08:33 AM.

[Kunae]

PropagandaWar, on 03 October 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

When CW comes in the game will develop a "history" of sorts and planets will be won with these weapons. Having them change from week to week takes away from that immersion.

I agree.

And even beyond immersion, if PGI wants this to be an "e-sport" as they've stated/implied/hinted-at then they need to have consistent, balanced weapons and mechanics. This should have been done before OB, in my opinion, but definitely before "launch".

[Wispsy]

Fut, on 03 October 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

Ummm.. Yeah, kind of.
If it's a true 1vs1 situation, and neither of those Mechs has back-up coming, the Jenner should be able to take the Atlas out. Might take awhile, but high mobility and high speed against a slow moving target is no contest.

I have never once died to a lone light mech whilst piloting an assault.
I have died to many lone assault mechs in my lights when despite all my most cunning efforts and well placed hard fought alphas and ridiculously well timed dodges, they get that one shot that blows my leg off or torso out and it is over...

Right now, in this game, a single assault will crush a light of equal skill. They may prolong it, but assaults can torso twist as well, and with the speed reductions, they can easily turn fast enough to keep you in their arc, especially if they have jumpjets and/or arm mounted weapons.

Some people are exceedingly accurate. If you do not preemptively dodge their shot (hsr yay now you have to dodge before they shoot so it dodges on their screen not yours) then it will kill you and they will not miss just because you are "small" (I mean people can reliably headshot the majority of their kills in almost any fps and that is a far tinier target then the massive ct of a Jenner who has managed to get in range to do damage with his weapons on you...).

in 1v1 situations right now assault > light every single time given equal skill.


Edit: That first statement also includes the 100s of games I played in an LRM Atlas with only a single large pulse laser as a non LRM weapon (other arm had TAG for obvious reasons).

Edited by Wispsy, 03 October 2013 - 09:15 AM.

[Kunae]

Wispsy, on 03 October 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

in 1v1 situations right now assault > light every single time given equal skill.

Thankfully there aren't that many really skilled assault pilots, as it tends to be a 'go-to' mech, for many.

[Vodrin Thales]

Kunae, on 03 October 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

I encourage you to try this. I think you will kill yourself from override damage long before you kill any enemy.

Depends how good a shot he is, although even if he is an incredible shot I would not recommend this. What ghost heat really killed though is the 4 PPC Cataphract 3D which had good mobility and jump jets. It also made the HGN-733P with 4 PPC much less effective. 40 point alphas to 540 meters was very strong, and I can say that I am happy PGI found a way to make them less effective (even if it was a little bit of a bastardized way of doing it).

As for the Assault vs. Light debate I am with Wispsy. The light pilot just has to be perfect for so long to kill the assault, while the assault pilot just needs one good shot to win the encounter.