575 replies to this topic

[DemonRaziel]

Ngamok, on 03 October 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

So the arguement went from Kintaro vs. Lights to Lights vs. Lights. Now you wonder why the 3L was always so good before HSR and why when they were gonna give the Jenner ECM people complained.

I don't think it was ever about Kintaro per se, it's just turned out that way somewhere on the road. The main theme was "streaks should not be in a position to invalidate Light 'Mechs as a whole by taking away their main advantage - speed and ability to avoid fire".

[PEEFsmash]

DemonRaziel, on 03 October 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

Absolutely, I would love to try it. Streaks are a big advantage, but they do a little over half the damage the Spider does. Jenner's streaks damage is spread out by default, Spider's laser damage is spread out by Jenner's dodging. Armor is a bit better for Jenner, but his hitboxes are worse than the Spider's.

Jenner D with Streaks will absolutely CRUSH ECM Spider among high level players. It is the best light against spiders.

You can take that duel if you want, you can duel with me if you want, but your legs will be gone before you remove Jenner CT armor.

Wispsy and I have been working quite hard on figuring out the relationship (counters) between the various light mechs, and we are both in full agreement that there is no light better at crushing good Spider pilots than the Jenner D with streaks. Trying to fight one in a Spider is just a short countdown to getting legged and dying.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 03 October 2013 - 11:24 AM.

[Imperius]

Wispsy, on 03 October 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

What is your average queue time?



Dumbest thing to say ever...

Oh really. How about we remove ECM and see how good some of these light pilots really are? If the light can't run back to his team from a little ssrm boat then yes he's done one of two things. Gone to far away from support, or he forgot to equip his god mode (ECM). Call it stupid, but all I ever see you babies cry about is this killed a light nerf it, this killed a light nerf that, oh seismic is useless on lights now (have to stand still *upcoming change*). Get off it already. Learn to do your jobs which is to scout and harass and quit thinking you're meant to brawl! The only thing that saves half of the lights from any of my assaults is not aim or speed, it's my lack if torso twist.

[DemonRaziel]

PEEFsmash, on 03 October 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

Jenner D with Streaks will absolutely CRUSH ECM Spider among high level players. It is the best light against spiders.

You can take that duel if you want, you can duel with me if you want, but your legs will be gone before you remove Jenner CT armor.

Wispsy and I have been working quite hard on figuring out the relationship (counters) between the various light mechs, and we are both in full agreement that there is no light better at crushing good Spider pilots than the Jenner D with streaks. Trying to fight one in a Spider is just a short countdown to getting legged and dying.

You do realize we are talking about Jenner D with Streaks and NOTHING ELSE, though, right? The absence of lasers means a lot.

[Krivvan]

Mister Blastman, on 03 October 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

Don't think people don't! In super high ELO brackets the players are much different than the lower-tier. Stuff that works against regular people is suicidal against these players.

I said that lights were far from amazing in 12v12 games, and by extension games with a high number of very good players. They still have a use though, and are still useful in a pack even in 12s.

I have a mental list of players that I know to act like a complete coward around. I am well aware of what similar level Heavy and Assault players can do to me. You learn to play around that.

[DemonRaziel]

Imperius, on 03 October 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

Oh really. How about we remove ECM and see how good some of these light pilots really are? If the light can't run back to his team from a little ssrm boat then yes he's done one of two things. Gone to far away from support, or he forgot to equip his god mode (ECM). Call it stupid, but all I ever see you babies cry about is this killed a light nerf it, this killed a light nerf that, oh seismic is useless on lights now (have to stand still *upcoming change*). Get off it already. Learn to do your jobs which is to scout and harass and quit thinking you're meant to brawl! The only thing that saves half of the lights from any of my assaults is not aim or speed, it's my lack if torso twist.

My, you do hate light 'Mech don't you? Or is it just my mind playing tricks on me?

[Wispsy]

Imperius, on 03 October 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

Oh really. How about we remove ECM and see how good some of these light pilots really are? If the light can't run back to his team from a little ssrm boat then yes he's done one of two things. Gone to far away from support, or he forgot to equip his god mode (ECM). Call it stupid, but all I ever see you babies cry about is this killed a light nerf it, this killed a light nerf that, oh seismic is useless on lights now (have to stand still *upcoming change*). Get off it already. Learn to do your jobs which is to scout and harass and quit thinking you're meant to brawl! The only thing that saves half of the lights from any of my assaults is not aim or speed, it's my lack if torso twist.

You did not say "if you cannot run from a light hunter"

You said "if you cannot fight a light hunter"
As in....if you cannot take on a mech 100% designed around specifically killing you, with zero need to aim involved just constant dmg you cannot avoid, then you are a bad light pilot...

[Krivvan]

PEEFsmash, on 03 October 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

Jenner D with Streaks will absolutely CRUSH ECM Spider among high level players. It is the best light against spiders.

You can take that duel if you want, you can duel with me if you want, but your legs will be gone before you remove Jenner CT armor.

However, there are lights that can counter streak lights. It crushes the Spider mainly due to the Spider's weak damage output and how it normally avoids damage.

[Ngamok]

DemonRaziel, on 03 October 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

I don't think it was ever about Kintaro per se, it's just turned out that way somewhere on the road. The main theme was "streaks should not be in a position to invalidate Light 'Mechs as a whole by taking away their main advantage - speed and ability to avoid fire".

As I said back in CB, Streaks shouldn't be doing 90 degree turns from off screen locks. But for Light vs. Light combat I don't care since both can carry them with exceptions. If they want to do the dance of death with each other, then may the person who can break locks faster win. Or run and get help. Currently, if a Light runs off on the smaller maps and dies, his fault. On the larger amps it's easier to move around unseen. You want to play cap wars, fine. When the other lights come back for you and then they have streaks and kill you, your fault. Go with a buddy or two. or stick with the group and pick off lights or harass the big guys.

Now if we are talking about specialized builds to deal with Lights, then I say all is fair and those mechs like the StreakCat, StreakTaro and any other chassis doing it can be easily killed by other mechs now since they don't CT home like they used to. They can't run around as easily unseen and are easier targets to hit with the bigger guys.

[Krivvan]

Wispsy, on 03 October 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

You did not say "if you cannot run from a light hunter"

You said "if you cannot fight a light hunter"
As in....if you cannot take on a mech 100% designed around specifically killing you, with zero need to aim involved just constant dmg you cannot avoid, then you are a bad light pilot...

A good light pilot hopefully wouldn't be near that light hunter in the first place

[DEMAX51]

This is an interesting issue... here's my take:

Compared to SRMs, streaks are currently the far better option. If you consider that the degree of difficulty when using standard SRMs is greater than that of Streaks, it seems to me that Streaks need to be brought back in line with standard SRMs (and if you ask me, the way to do this is to bring their damage back to the same level - or even slightly lower than - SRMs, and to increase their cooldown rate so as to decrease their DPS). Their current numbers make absolutely no sense - they hit more often and do more damage than standard SRMs, at minimal increases to tonnage and rate-of-fire. This is, quite simply, very poor balance.

With regards to the StreakTaro - This is a highly specialized build designed specifically to kill Lights. Though it has a huge advantage against Lights, it is also at a severe disadvantage against heavier 'Mechs. When considering the StreakTaro as a part of a full team of 'Mechs, this particular build does not seem too OP to me at the moment (and this is evident by the complete lack of StreakTaro builds in 12-man play).

PEEF (left DV8, by the way?) makes an excellent point that Streaks are the ONLY weapon in the game that are stronger against certain 'Mech types than others. There is also a very large disconnect between the skill required to use SSRMs and the reward from their use (still a low-risk, high-reward weapon). Why must we have specific "Light-killer" weapons? Their inclusion completely invalidates the fact that Lights rely on speed and maneuverability to survive. If we are going to have weapons that are significantly better against certain 'Mechs, where is the "armor-piercing" weapon that we can use to put a hurtin' on heavily armored Assault 'Mechs?

Honestly, I don't know how to "fix" streaks apart from nerfing them to sub-SRM damage/DPS abilities, but that alone might be pretty decent.

Edited by DEMAX51, 03 October 2013 - 11:56 AM.

[Wispsy]

Krivvan, on 03 October 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

A good light pilot hopefully wouldn't be near that light hunter in the first place

A good light pilot would not have a choice when he has a game to carry, considering Elo still balances by putting bad people on your team who cannot kill anything, so basically if I want to win the game I should not play a light mech...yeah ok sounds balanced...I do not need to avoid any type of mech in my Victor.

[Imperius]

Wispsy, on 03 October 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

You did not say "if you cannot run from a light hunter"

You said "if you cannot fight a light hunter"
As in....if you cannot take on a mech 100% designed around specifically killing you, with zero need to aim involved just constant dmg you cannot avoid, then you are a bad light pilot...

Part of fighting as a good player is using your team and knowing where they are, also knowing your weaknesses. Your basically saying to me in this thread if a LBX-10x2 SRM 4x3 Atlas came at me with my Ilya Gauss x2 Medium Laser x3 and I killed him before he got into 500m then I need to get nerfed cause he should be able to rush me? No one mech is the best, or ever will be. If a ssrm boat came up to my atlas or my Ilya he would be dead before he even became a threat. It's not dumb to say you just didn't understand.

[Wispsy]

DemonRaziel, on 03 October 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

Pfuu, that's a hard one. Sometimes it takes seconds, sometimes 2 minutes. But if it's Elo you're after... I drop with Kunae, PEEF, DV81 every now and then... But not regularly, so I'd say I'm a bit lower.

Add me as friend in game. Not on right now but next time we are on together I do not mind showing you and we can try and sync.

[Imperius]

Wispsy, on 03 October 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

A good light pilot would not have a choice when he has a game to carry, considering Elo still balances by putting bad people on your team who cannot kill anything, so basically if I want to win the game I should not play a light mech...yeah ok sounds balanced...I do not need to avoid any type of mech in my Victor.

Yeah so use the pugs to your advantage. I snipe and use them as bait. Added bonus I get a savior kill. Sometimes I get steam rolled but it's the game you play when you spin the wheel in the pug machine.

[Krivvan]

Wispsy, on 03 October 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

A good light pilot would not have a choice when he has a game to carry, considering Elo still balances by putting bad people on your team who cannot kill anything, so basically if I want to win the game I should not play a light mech...yeah ok sounds balanced...I do not need to avoid any type of mech in my Victor.

I choose to take more of a carefree attitude with pug games. You get put in ****** situations at times, but they're just always opportunities for you to make dreams happen while the odds are against you.

[Krivvan]

Wispsy, on 03 October 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

A good light pilot would not have a choice when he has a game to carry, considering Elo still balances by putting bad people on your team who cannot kill anything, so basically if I want to win the game I should not play a light mech...yeah ok sounds balanced...I do not need to avoid any type of mech in my Victor.

On a more serious note, you take the good with the bad. As a light mech you have a lot of ability to influence the game by being able to quickly be wherever you are needed most. This is important since your teammates will have no cohesion whatsoever and you sometimes need to jump from engagement to engagement in order to keep your side winning. You may also be the only mech able to stop a cap or prevent a cap victory.

[Imperius]

Krivvan, on 03 October 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

On a more serious note, you take the good with the bad. As a light mech you have a lot of ability to influence the game by being able to quickly be wherever you are needed most. This is important since your teammates will have no cohesion whatsoever and you sometimes need to jump from engagement to engagement in order to keep your side winning. You may also be the only mech able to stop a cap or prevent a cap victory.

He already has a defeatist attitude and his true intintions have been revealed. He wants to run a light mech that has no weaknesses, that can brawl against assaults, and carry pug teams like the god pilot he thinks he is. He wants to drop on the map go 12/0 and claim he's the best of the pugs.

I can't wait for collisions to come back. The true good lights will shine then not the babies I see proclaiming self greatness in these forums. Private matches will settle a lot of this who's a noob {Scrap} in the future till then. Keep asking people what their wait time is for matching to stoke that false ELO epeen theory you all have going about matchmaking wait times.

[Kunae]

DEMAX51, on 03 October 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

This is an interesting issue... here's my take:

Compared to SRMs, streaks are currently the far better option. If you consider that the degree of difficulty when using standard SRMs is greater than that of Streaks, it seems to me that Streaks need to be brought back in line with standard SRMs (and if you ask me, the way to do this is to bring their damage back to the same level - or even slightly lower than - SRMs, and to increase their cooldown rate so as to decrease their DPS). Their current numbers make absolutely no sense - they hit more often and do more damage than standard SRMs, at minimal increases to tonnage and rate-of-fire. This is, quite simply, very poor balance.

With regards to the StreakTaro - This is a highly specialized build designed specifically to kill Lights. Though it has a huge advantage against Lights, it is also at a severe disadvantage against heavier 'Mechs. When considering the StreakTaro as a part of a full team of 'Mechs, this particular build does not seem too OP to me at the moment (and this is evident by the complete lack of StreakTaro builds in 12-man play).

PEEF (left DV8, by the way?) makes an excellent point that Streaks are the ONLY weapon in the game that are stronger against certain 'Mech types than others. There is also a very large disconnect between the skill required to use SSRMs and the reward from their use (still a low-risk, high-reward weapon). Why must we have specific "Light-killer" weapons? Their inclusion completely invalidates the fact that Lights rely on speed and maneuverability to survive. If we are going to have weapons that are significantly better against certain 'Mechs, where is the "armor-piercing" weapon that we can use to put a hurtin' on heavily armored Assault 'Mechs?

Honestly, I don't know how to "fix" streaks apart from nerfing them to sub-SRM damage/DPS abilities, but that alone might be pretty decent.

Yeah, the damage boost has never made any logical sense.

[DocBach]

Drop the damage back to 2 a missile to bring them in line with standard SRM's. BOOM, SSRM balanced.