575 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Royalewithcheese, on 02 October 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

Here's a question: are "hard counters" a good mechanic for an FPS at all?

What a silly question to ask. Of course they are! Haven't you seen how well ECM and BAP have turned out?

[japes]

Kaspirikay, on 02 October 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

I don't see that happening to me when I'm in my A1. Ever.

My original use of the term "countering" may be at fault there. Good light players should have no issue adapting to nullify the effectiveness SSRM boats have against them. In effect, outplaying what people are referring to as a "hard counter".

Apparently avoiding being within 270M of a 'Mech that you're almost 40km/h faster than, not to mention more agile than, is a concept foreign to some players here that continue to use condescension instead of intelligence to fortify their relevancy in this title.

Edited by japes, 02 October 2013 - 06:46 PM.

[Greenknight419]

Install AMS

/thread

[Kunae]

Shaftronics, on 02 October 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

Streaks were made to counter Lights.

No.

They.

Were.

Not.

Streaks were made to save ammunition, so you didn't waste it with missed shots. It has NOTHING to do with lights.

[Kunae]

TexAss, on 02 October 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

So according to your calculation, if you add internal structure a light mech has around 300 hp
So you need 12 alphas with your streak kint.
-> 11*3.5 seconds = 38.5 seconds.

Now I don't know how you pilot lights, but there is a lot of stuff you can do in 38.5 seconds to a medium mech. A lot. Not to say you can run away and call for help, too.

Wow.

Fail math is fail. You only have to kill 1 component (other than arms) to effectively kill a light. You also happen to have a minimum of 2 medium lasers on it.

If you're going to be obtuse, at least get your logic right.

[Kaspirikay]

Kunae, on 02 October 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

No.

They.

Were.

Not.

Streaks were made to save ammunition, so you didn't waste it with missed shots. It has NOTHING to do with lights.

That was the intention, but the actual use is for countering lights now.

bold words

[Kunae]

japes, on 02 October 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

My original use of the term "countering" may be at fault there. Good light players should have no issue adapting to nullify the effectiveness SSRM boats have against them. In effect, outplaying what people are referring to as a "hard counter".

Apparently avoiding being within 270M of a 'Mech that you're almost 40km/h faster than, not to mention more agile than, is a concept foreign to some players here that continue to use condescension instead of intelligence to fortify their relevancy in this title.

[Redacted]

As has been said before, repeatedly, in this very thread: "You do not always have the option to run away from them."

Also, you can't kite them very effectively, as they can close distance on you fairly quickly, when you try to get a shot. They also have lasers to shoot you with that are the same ranges as yours.

Edited by John Wolf, 03 October 2013 - 08:25 AM.
Removed Unconstructive Comments

[japes]

Kunae, on 02 October 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

[Redacted]

As has been said before, repeatedly, in this very thread: "You do not always have the option to run away from them."

Also, you can't kite them very effectively, as they can close distance on you fairly quickly, when you try to get a shot. They also have lasers to shoot you with that are the same ranges as yours.

Good thing it's a team game with 11 other 'Mechs on the field then.

Edited by John Wolf, 03 October 2013 - 08:27 AM.
Quote Cleanup

[Kunae]

Kaspirikay, on 02 October 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

That was the intention, but the actual use is for countering lights now.

bold words

No, that is the meta, and metas change as the systems change.

What did people use to kill lights with, before the streak buff in Nov '12? Lasers, SRMs, and ballistics. It isn't rocket-surgery.

japes, on 02 October 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

Good thing it's a team game with 11 other 'Mechs on the field then.

[Redacted]

There are times when you are forced to face them, one on one. Too complex for you, as I spelled out the numbers? Ok.

Sometimes you have to face them 1v1.

Better?

Edited by John Wolf, 03 October 2013 - 08:28 AM.
Removed unconstructive comments.

[FupDup]

Kunae, on 02 October 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

[Redacted]

As has been said before, repeatedly, in this very thread: "You do not always have the option to run away from them."

Also, you can't kite them very effectively, as they can close distance on you fairly quickly, when you try to get a shot. They also have lasers to shoot you with that are the same ranges as yours.

Not to mention the new movement code. If a light is turning his torso almost all the way around to laser that Streaktaro, there's a good chance he'll get stuck or slowed down on some random piece of small terrain due to diverted attention. Or there's the issue of bumping into things, which can of course be solved by looking forwards but that removes the ability to shoot at the Kintaro chasing him (while the Kintaro gets to ML the runner in the back). I've nom nommed quite a few lights this way...

Edited by John Wolf, 03 October 2013 - 08:27 AM.
Quote clean up

[Kunae]

FupDup, on 02 October 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

Not to mention the new movement code. If a light is turning his torso almost all the way around to laser that Streaktaro, there's a good chance he'll get stuck or slowed down on some random piece of small terrain due to diverted attention. Or there's the issue of bumping into things, which can of course be solved by looking forwards but that removes the ability to shoot at the Kintaro chasing him (while the Kintaro gets to ML the runner in the back). I've nom nommed quite a few lights this way...

Good point about the movement code.

[Navy Sixes]

FrDrake, on 02 October 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

Is a 20 dmg alpha that actually registers when you hit a light every 3.5 seconds enough to make it balanced?

1) FiFy
2) Depends on who you ask.

[Kaspirikay]

Kunae, on 02 October 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

No, that is the meta,

same ****, different way to say it.

[Toong]

Kunae, on 02 October 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

...the Kintaro-18 which can boat 5 of them.
...that's around 9-14% of your total armor every 3.5 seconds.

Say it ain't so, Joe!

The five medium pulse lasers on my swayback can strip the side torso of an Atlas in 3 shots and it's accurate enough to hit the same spot reliably. I can either dismember a 'mech, or leave a section of it exposed, in as little as 9 seconds, and I have the heat capacity to make it happen.

A single LB 10-X has a similar damage profile, at longer range, for much less tonnage. Twin LB 10-X's are scary indeed, and can be run viably with a 'mech as small as a hunchback.

LRM boats, when they have a solid lock, are easily capable of stripping 6-10% of a 'mechs total HP with each volley, at much longer range.

Before you start going on about how OH MY GOD OVERPOWERED GET RID OF IT a weapon is, please check it against other weapon systems. Every weapon has a counter. Learn to do so, instead of doing something as infantile as demanding that they cut out the portions of the game you don't like.

[Kunae]

Kaspirikay, on 02 October 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

same ****, different way to say it.

Fine, I'll use your words.

People use them that way because that's just how the system works right now. Change the system and it will no longer be the case.

Why do people use Streak-Kintaros now? Because they're OP vs lights. If it's OP, it should be, by nature, adjusted to be more balanced.

Toong, on 02 October 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

Say it ain't so, Joe!

The five medium pulse lasers on my swayback can strip the side torso of an Atlas in 3 shots and it's accurate enough to hit the same spot reliably. I can either dismember a 'mech, or leave a section of it exposed, in as little as 9 seconds, and I have the heat capacity to make it happen.

A single LB 10-X has a similar damage profile, at longer range, for much less tonnage. Twin LB 10-X's are scary indeed, and can be run viably with a 'mech as small as a hunchback.

LRM boats, when they have a solid lock, are easily capable of stripping 6-10% of a 'mechs total HP with each volley, at much longer range.

Before you start going on about how OH MY GOD OVERPOWERED GET RID OF IT a weapon is, please check it against other weapon systems. Every weapon has a counter. Learn to do so, instead of doing something as infantile as demanding that they cut out the portions of the game you don't like.

No, all of the weapons you mention work on all weight-classes of mechs. You have to ask yourself, "Why is there a weapon that people are using right now to specifically target lights/(some)meds, that is mostly ineffective against larger mechs?"

Because they are OP in that role.

[Prezimonto]

Streaks and SRM's should function on a lock which gives them minimal guidance to target along a line. Streaks should do less damage, travel about 2x as fast, and be unfireable without a lock. SRM's should be fireable without a lock, but not receive a guidance effect and have awful spread.

By guidance effect I'm talking about adjusting to hit a target by no more than 30° off the straight line path from which they're fired, and that would be at their maximum range.... so a close shot doesn't have time to adjust, but a long range shot will at least land most of the missiles on the enemy mech, as long as it doesn't move out of a 30° in the time it takes the missiles to travel that distance.

Streaks being much faster would leave a strong place for them vs. fast targets, but not the death sentence they currently are. Trading damage for speed is a reasonable trade off to hit more quickly traveling mechs.

Keeping the lock effect for SSRM's keeps them from being better in nearly every situation except pure damage as the SRM is still dumbfireable (but much worse without a lock). It gives a good reason to apply artemis too all short range missiles(streaks included as well) which will also effect load out choices. It would balance the SSRM 6pack that is inevitably coming. It works within the bounds of what is already in the game in term of lock on effects. It can still utilize the bone targeting to help balance, though those numbers should be tweaked. SRM's wouldn't target bones if dumb fired, leaving a place for short range hardpoint specific shots with SRM's(probably with artemis).

Edited by Prezimonto, 03 October 2013 - 04:42 AM.

[japes]

Kunae, on 02 October 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

Actually read the thread, and you'll come off looking like much less the fool.

Actually, I'll continue playing the game knowing they're not a problem and accepting that some setups counter others.

39.3 is the number you're looking for.

Edited by japes, 02 October 2013 - 07:28 PM.

[Toong]

Kunae, on 02 October 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

No, all of the weapons you mention work on all weight-classes of mechs. You have to ask yourself, "Why is there a weapon that people are using right now to specifically target lights/(some)meds, that is mostly ineffective against larger mechs?"

Because they are OP in that role.

Nah. That's their intended role. By choosing streaks, you become a nightmare for anything under 50 tons, sure, but at the expense of a less optimal damage output against larger 'mechs, unless you're boating, which is itself evidence that they aren't overpowered. Of course streaks are strong when you have five of them. Pretty much anything is strong when you have five of them.

One 'mech loadout consistently losing to another 'mech loadout is not, by itself, an indicator of bad balance. And I've seen nothing to make me think streaks are terribly good at anything out of their main role of targeting and destroying fast, lightly armored targets, which they excel at.

[A Man In A Can]

[redacted]

If PGI wants Streaks to be fire-and-forget missiles, let them. It is an interesting interpretation that PGI has the full right to implement as the developers of this game. Plus tweaking is a constant thing with this. If you have a problem with it, or any other mechanic/mech that has been here for a while then maybe MWO is not the game for you. If you don't have a problem with it, then I'll see you on the battlefield.

Edited by miSs, 03 October 2013 - 09:12 AM.
Does not add to discussion

[CrashieJ]

fixing the mechanics is the best way to deal with the problem, actually removing the weapon will spell disaster as an unintentional shift in meta will happen to different weapons that might be even more advantageous.

streaks should act like actual missiles, not magic bolts of lightning that can orbit a mech and smash places not normally accessible by other weapons.

Locking Weapons are the best kind for Lights due to their higher hit rate, the underlying cause is the netcode, moving hitboxes around faster than a moving company.

FIX THE NETCODE, FIX THE META