532 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Lupus Aurelius, on 10 October 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

The Dual ERPPC mech - 4 volleys across 12 seconds, total 80 damage, until shutdown
The Dual AC10 mech - 9 volleys across 20 seconds, total 180 damage, and no shutdown
The Dual AC5/UAC5 mech - 14 volleys across 20 seconds, total 140 damage and no shutdown
The Dual AC2 mech - 34 volleys over 17.7 seconds, total 136 damage, until shutdown
The Dual Gauss mech - 6 volleys over 20 seconds, total 180 damage, no shutdown, negative temp. trend

The dual ERPPC mech, with 14 additional heat rating, and 1.4 additional cooling per second, can only volley 4 times before inducing a shutdown, with the possibility of taking internal crit damage every time you do. And that is if you only fire the ERPPCs, fire anything else and it get worse. And you are saying this is balanced? With double the DHS for the ERPPC mech, 30 crits just in DHS out of 46 to 51 crits available, and that's counting center torso, legs, and head. So 7 of those crits are not even usable for DHS.

But we'll go with the high figure, and say 44 max crits that you can get DHS in. So, having to utilize almost 3/4 of available crits that can fit DHS, in order to use 2 ERPPCs and get on a heat neutral map 4 volleys before overheat. you have a max of 14 crits to fit weapons, and the heat curve gets even worse for everyone you add, and guess what, the only thing you have tonnage and crits for is, guess what, energy weapons.

And you call this balanced? Hardly.

And what you are ignoring is that there are plenty of mechs that have only energy and missile hardpoints, with the ERPPC being the only pinpoint damage dealer in those 2 weapon groups. It is the only choice those mechs have for that damage type.

What you are advocating, therefore, is in order to compete in a sustained engagement, that those mechs are sub-optimal, and that one should choose a ballistic capable mech to have sustainable pinpoint damage, which all the ballistics have.

When it comes down to only one good choice, that is not balance.

This charting of damage shows exactly WHY ERPPCs are balanced. 80 points in 12 seconds. The only thing that can match that is The dual AC10 combo - something only 3 mechs can even mount.

Dual AC/10s with 2 tons of ammo each is 26 tons and 18 slots. That also gets a max 30 shots. It's also only going to do that damage out to 450 meters. Its tradeoff for this and generating minimal heat is that's about it for weapons loadout. With only 30 twin shots (60 total) wasting them for targets beyond 450 is generally unwise so that max of 1350 where you're doing 1 point from each gun is foolish. There is the K2, Jags and 3 Phracts (including Ilya) that can even carry it. Two 65 ton mechs and one 70 tonner. It's not that common but you see them and they're reasonably successful. Cool but lacking the UMPH that some of the other ballistic builds in those spots.

Dual ERPPCs - 14 tons and 6 crits plus all the DHS you can cram in. Same damage but out to 810 meters. 36% faster projectile speed for superior accuracy. Unlimited shots so you take every opening you can. Even out to the 1620m max range, there's no reason not to take the shot. Mountable passably well on everything 45 tons or heavier, especially shining on the larger mechs. It's the best per-shot pinpoint damage at long range in the game. The tradeoff is heat - repeated firing like is required in brawling will melt you. You need to get your kill with those 80 points of damage and get into cover to cool off. Fortunately the extra 12 tons of weight you save gives you room for other, cooler weapons to mount to play off against dual AC10 builds.

This is the whole balanced point of it. ERPPCs do pinpoint damage at the widest swath of range of any pinpoint weapon in the game - 1 meter to 810 meters it's 10 points. Unlike regular PPCs, which run cooler, it'll go point blank if needed.

Dual ERPPCs will do 20 points to a single hit location in the 1 or 2 seconds you're exposed and they'll do it out to 810 meters. Every other weapon that wants to get even close to that range requires exposing yourself to fire for longer durations and will spread your damage out via multiple shots over your target. That, or they won't have the same range.

The problem is that it IS balanced now for the way MW:O works and the power of pinpoint damage from 0-810 meters for only 7 tons and 3 crits. It leaves room for plenty of other weapons. The only way to effectively balance that, as we've seen from the absolutely terrible PPC meta that went on for months, is with appropriately high heat. Now it's got a niche that it works in and works well. In that niche it gets used terribly effectively. It just doesn't get to be superior to every other weapon in the game.

AGAIN. Like it was when it had lower heat. I realize you enjoyed that but pretty much everyone else hated it and hope those days never, ever come back.

[Lupus Aurelius]

MischiefSC, on 19 October 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

This charting of damage shows exactly WHY ERPPCs are balanced. 80 points in 12 seconds. The only thing that can match that is The dual AC10 combo - something only 3 mechs can even mount.

That actually is incorrect.

The Dual ERPPC mech - 4 volleys across 12 seconds, total 80 damage, until shutdown
The Dual AC10 mech - 9 volleys across 20 seconds, total 180 damage, and no shutdown
The Dual AC5/UAC5 mech - 14 volleys across 20 seconds, total 140 damage and no shutdown
The Dual AC2 mech - 34 volleys over 17.7 seconds, total 136 damage, until shutdown
The Dual Gauss mech - 6 volleys over 20 seconds, total 180 damage, no shutdown, negative temp. trend

In 12 secs, with first volley at 0 sec, when the dual ERPPC shutdown:
Dual AC10 - 116 damage
Dual AC5/UAC5 - 90 damage
Dual AC2 - 96 damage
Dual Gauss - 80 damage ( remember, neg heat trend)

MischiefSC, on 19 October 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

Dual ERPPCs - 14 tons and 6 crits plus all the DHS you can cram in.

At most, you'll have about 20 DHS, 10 Engine, 10 External. As stated in the OP, that is what the heat figues are based on for the dual ERPPC example, vs only the native 10 DHS in the engine for the ballistics. That's 10 tons and 30 crits for the dual ERPPC mech, and pretty much you're talking assaults, because adding in the ERPPCs, you are at 24 tons and 36 crits. Which leaves little to nothing you can fit on that mech, other than medium and small lasers, which make the heat profile even worse.

MischiefSC, on 19 October 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

This is the whole balanced point of it. ERPPCs do pinpoint damage at the widest swath of range of any pinpoint weapon in the game - 1 meter to 810 meters it's 10 points. Unlike regular PPCs, which run cooler, it'll go point blank if needed.

Dual ERPPCs will do 20 points to a single hit location in the 1 or 2 seconds you're exposed and they'll do it out to 810 meters. Every other weapon that wants to get even close to that range requires exposing yourself to fire for longer durations and will spread your damage out via multiple shots over your target. That, or they won't have the same range.

And dual AC5 is doing 10 damage at same range at equivalent speeds every 1.5 seconds, for the same overall damage output in the same 12 seconds that the ERPPCs can fire, and continue to fire well past that point. Also, because of the faster firing speeds, you have even more opportunity to shoot at targets, before they hit cover.

MischiefSC, on 19 October 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

AGAIN. Like it was when it had lower heat. I realize you enjoyed that but pretty much everyone else hated it and hope those days never, ever come back.

Emotional response. It has nothing to do with my enjoyment, but on data, and I submit that the jump from 12 to 15 heat was excessive, and a over the top kneejerk reaction because of those same player emotions. No suggestion is being made to reduce PPC heat, fine where they are. But the ERPPC, if brought back to 12, or even 12.5, and with the ghost heat mechanic, you'd never see 4-6 ERPPC buids. We're not seeing that even with PPCs at 10 heat.

It's a question of energy/missile only mechs having a viable option. With the amount of DHS it takes to run these, you basically are running a mech with 2 ERPPCs and almost nothing else, and in a brawl situation, shutdown in less than 12 seconds if you use anything else on that mech. Because of the tonnage and crits needed, you are stuck with MLs and SLs. Fire a single ML will drop shutdown to below 10 seconds, fire 2 and you are below 7 seconds. It's not viable compared to ballistics which can be use at all ranges as well.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 21 October 2013 - 06:26 AM.

[Wolfways]

Lupus Aurelius, on 21 October 2013 - 05:53 AM, said:

The Dual ERPPC mech - 4 volleys across 12 seconds, total 80 damage, until shutdown

Dual ERPPC's cannot be fired 4 times in 12 seconds. With 20DHS you can fire twice and the third will shut down the mech.

[Karl Streiger]

Wolfways, on 21 October 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

Dual ERPPC's cannot be fired 4 times in 12 seconds. With 20DHS you can fire twice and the third will shut down the mech.

Right - but with only 1750 XP spend it works again - although I'm pretty sure your Mech will not woke up after the 4th Alpha

[Wolfways]

Karl Streiger, on 22 October 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

Right - but with only 1750 XP spend it works again - although I'm pretty sure your Mech will not woke up after the 4th Alpha

Heat Containment and Coolrun? Nope.
Since the heat generated went back to 15 you can only dual fire ERPPC's twice with 20DHS + fully mastered mech.

[Karl Streiger]

Wolfways, on 22 October 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

Heat Containment and Coolrun? Nope.
Since the heat generated went back to 15 you can only dual fire ERPPC's twice with 20DHS + fully mastered mech.

Maybe I have a mistake: without Elite Skill
you are at 3.66 disipation and 70.4 threshhold.
first Alpha at second 0 = 30 heat
after 4 seconds with 3.66 dissipation you are at 15.36 + 30 = 45.36
Again after 4 seconds at 30.72 + 30 = 60.72
Now you are cooling back to 46.08 - so that the next Alpha (the 4th) will overheat your Mech.

With Elite Skill you could be able to fire even a 5th time

[Joseph Mallan]

See but for 30 years if you had more sinks than heat generate you did not build heat at all. So 2 ER PPCs on 20 Doubles never even generated heat. So Mechs like the Thug stayed cool even firing all 4 weapons all game.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 22 October 2013 - 10:50 AM.

[Wolfways]

Karl Streiger, on 22 October 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

Maybe I have a mistake: without Elite Skill
you are at 3.66 disipation and 70.4 threshhold.
first Alpha at second 0 = 30 heat
after 4 seconds with 3.66 dissipation you are at 15.36 + 30 = 45.36
Again after 4 seconds at 30.72 + 30 = 60.72
Now you are cooling back to 46.08 - so that the next Alpha (the 4th) will overheat your Mech.

With Elite Skill you could be able to fire even a 5th time

I'm no good with numbers but i do know that i've had my K2 since i started in Closed Beta and it is fully mastered and is now a K3 (ERPPC's and 20DHS). I just used it yesterday and if i fire the ERPPC's grouped the third shot will shutdown the mech.

[Artgathan]

Karl Streiger, on 22 October 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

Maybe I have a mistake: without Elite Skill
you are at 3.66 disipation and 70.4 threshhold.
first Alpha at second 0 = 30 heat
after 4 seconds with 3.66 dissipation you are at 15.36 + 30 = 45.36
Again after 4 seconds at 30.72 + 30 = 60.72
Now you are cooling back to 46.08 - so that the next Alpha (the 4th) will overheat your Mech.

With Elite Skill you could be able to fire even a 5th time

Wolfways, on 22 October 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

I'm no good with numbers but i do know that i've had my K2 since i started in Closed Beta and it is fully mastered and is now a K3 (ERPPC's and 20DHS). I just used it yesterday and if i fire the ERPPC's grouped the third shot will shutdown the mech.

I'm not sure if this was resolved at some point, but I know there was a bug that caused Heat Containment to not be applied. That could explain the discrepancy between theory and practice.

[Wolfways]

Okay erm...there's something weird going on.

I just took my K2 into a match (Frozen City) and i could just fire three times without overheating, so on a normal heat map i would have shutdown on the third shot.
Then i messed with the engine and heat sinks in the mechlab and went into another match (River City) with the exact same setup i had previously and i can fire three times without overheating.

I wonder if my K2 has been bugged or something for a long time without me knowing about it and moving the weapons and engine in and out has fixed it...

[Cmore]

Let's just leave PPCs/ERPPCs where they are.

[BlackIronTarkus]

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe, just throwing that out, maybe, the ERPPC is meant to be used as a support weapon. You know the kind that you fire when the oportunity arise, not the kind of weapon you boat.

Just saying.

[Commodore Frank]

BlackIronTarkus, on 22 October 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe, just throwing that out, maybe, the ERPPC is meant to be used as a support weapon. You know the kind that you fire when the oportunity arise, not the kind of weapon you boat.

Just saying.

Having two of them is far from boating, and even that is very difficult to stay cool with.

[BlackIronTarkus]

Commodore Frank, on 22 October 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

Having two of them is far from boating, and even that is very difficult to stay cool with.

Maybe that weapon is meant to be used alone?! You know, to let your mech have some long range capability.

[Wolfways]

BlackIronTarkus, on 22 October 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Maybe that weapon is meant to be used alone?! You know, to let your mech have some long range capability.

Then explain the K3.

Edited by Wolfways, 22 October 2013 - 12:31 PM.

[Artgathan]

Wolfways, on 22 October 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

Then explain the K3.

Or the AWS-9M.

[DONTOR]

WOAH! your magic, you got 6 volleys from gauss in 20 seconds! do you live in the past where there is still no chrge time?

[BlackIronTarkus]

Artgathan, on 22 October 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

Or the AWS-9M.

oh yeah totally forgot about that kind of stuff... meh, I guess the devs ****** up, BIG SURPRISE! Ahahahahaha!

[Lupus Aurelius]

Wolfways, on 21 October 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

Dual ERPPC's cannot be fired 4 times in 12 seconds. With 20DHS you can fire twice and the third will shut down the mech.

Karl Streiger, on 22 October 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

Maybe I have a mistake: without Elite Skill
you are at 3.66 disipation and 70.4 threshhold.
first Alpha at second 0 = 30 heat
after 4 seconds with 3.66 dissipation you are at 15.36 + 30 = 45.36
Again after 4 seconds at 30.72 + 30 = 60.72
Now you are cooling back to 46.08 - so that the next Alpha (the 4th) will overheat your Mech.

With Elite Skill you could be able to fire even a 5th time

5th time?!?!?! No way in hell.

It's like this: heat neutral map, starting at 0 heat (stationary) thru the entire cycle, the 3rd volley should almost overheat you, the forth will way overheat you:
30, 46.4, 62.8, 79.2



10 engine DHS = 20 heat and 2 heat dissipated per sec
10 external DHS = 14 heat and 1.4 heat dissipated per sec

64 heat capability at 3.4 heat dissipation per second. Table is in .5 sec increments. Remember, even during a volley, you are still dissipating heat so at the 4 sec mark its ((19.8+30)-3.4).

And just a reminder, the charts and data in the OP are 20 DHS for the ERPPC, and just the 10 engine DHS for the ballistics.

So effectively, it's 3 volleys, but taken from a pure math perspective, it's 4 volleys with internal damage from overheat on the forth volley.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 23 October 2013 - 07:13 AM.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Lupus Aurelius, on 06 October 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

Multiple threads pro and con have been posted about the ERPPC/PPC heat increase, most of it subjective. The following is hard data as to the ERPPC performance with current heat mechanics, as compared to the long range ballistic weapons. Please, regardless of your feelings or opinions, read the data and listen to what the data tells you, not to what you want the data to be.

So, let's start with the data:

Engine Double Heat Sinks – cool at .2 heat per second, add 2 heat per.
External Double Heat Sinks – cool at .14 heat per second. Add 1.4 heat per.


Figure 1: Weapon Data

So we will assume 3 tons ammo for each ballistic weapon we are considering. Anything less is an issue, especially with 12 vs. 12 now, your major damage weapons would run out of ammo long before the end of the match, leaving you with only you short range weapons to fall back on.

Instead of ammo, we will figure on 5 external DHS for the ERPPC. ¹

So here are the figures with the inclusion of ammo on the ballistics, external DHS foe the ERPPC, and criticals:

· AC2s - 2 damage / 0.52 seconds / 1 heat / 9 tons, 4 crits ...3.85 DPS / 1.92 HPS
· AC5/UAC5s - 5 damage / 1.5 seconds / 1 heat / 11tons, 7 crits ...3.3 DPS / 0.72 HPS
· AC10s - 10 damage / 2.5 seconds / 3 heat / 15tons, 10 crits ...4 DPS / 1.2 HPS
· Gauss - 15 Damage / 4.75 seconds / 1 heat / 18 tons, 10 crits ... 3.75 DPS / 0.25 HPS
· ERPPC - 10 damage / 4 seconds / 15 heat / 12 tons, 18 crits ...2.5 DPS / 3.75 HPS
· PPCs - 10 damage / 4 seconds / 10 heat / 12 tons, 18 crits ...2.5 DPS / 2.5 HPS

What is immediately evident is that of all the long range direct fire weapons, the ERPPC has the lowest DPS and the highest heat. AC10s do almost twice the DPS at less than 1/3 of the heat. Now, on a single volley, this isn’t an issue, but over time, DPS will drop even further on the ERPPC due to needing to cool off.

Let’s look at heat over time, using dual weapon setups, with the ACs and Gauss using just the 10 native DHS in an engine, and the ERPPCs using an additional external 10 DHS, with heat dissipation factored in:


Figure 2: HEAT VS. TIME (IN SECONDS) DUAL SETUPS, CONTINUOUS FIRE



Figure 3: Heat per Volley with Continuous Fire

The ERPPC mech has 20 DHS, giving it a max heat of 64 before a shutdown. The AC and Gauss mechs have only the 10 native DHS to the engine, and a heat cap of 50. Immediately apparent are the following:

• The Dual ERPPC mech - 4 volleys across 12 seconds, total 80 damage, until shutdown
  
• The Dual AC10 mech - 9 volleys across 20 seconds, total 180 damage, and no shutdown
  
• The Dual AC5/UAC5 mech - 14 volleys across 20 seconds, total 140 damage and no shutdown
  
• The Dual AC2 mech - 34 volleys over 17.7 seconds, total 136 damage, until shutdown
  
• The Dual Gauss mech - 6 volleys over 20 seconds, total 180 damage, no shutdown, negative temp. trend

The dual ERPPC mech, with 14 additional heat rating, and 1.4 additional cooling per second, can only volley 4 times before inducing a shutdown.










Note that the dual Gauss is heat neutral, with a negative temperature trend, and the dual AC5/UAC5 is effectively heat neutral, it could fire a full minute and not shut down. The AC10 can fire for 14 volleys and 32.5 seconds before shutdown. The dual AC2s have the highest climb in heat, but still capable of delivering 136 damage before inducing a shutdown.

For a comparison of a Dual ERPPC and Dual AC5 Firebrand, see this post: http://mwomercs.com/...-was-excessive/

For analysis and discussion of the heat system, see this post: http://mwomercs.com/...eedback-thread/

Data is data; math is math, and not subject to opinion nor feelings. In order to have balance, the pros and cons of each weapon need to balance out so that along with the disadvantages, there are enough advantages to make something worthwhile to utilize. The latest increase in heat for the ERPPC brought the heat levels up too high, negating any significant advantage compared to ballistics, and unbalanced them, as we will discuss next.

First question you might ask, is why you would even use ERPPC at this heat level, and the lowest DPS of all the sniping weapons? Speed is now the same as the AC5/UAC5s, so it still has a faster travel time than the AC10, same damage as the AC10. The fact of having less than a third the crits necessary for an AC10 is not significant, since that amounts to, on the dual setups, 14 more crits, which is 4 more external DHS. The data presented earlier is based on 5 external DHS, which makes the ERPPC 18 crits and 12 tons.

· But, ERPPCs don’t need ammo!

Yes they do, heat sinks are the ammo of ERPPCs. Due to the current heat levels, you have no choice but to run DHS, because the engine HS actually run as double HS. In order to compensate for using SHS, and additional 10 tons and 10 crits is necessary, just to get you to the level of a DHS engine.

And, ammo takes 1 crit, DHS take 3 crits. When taking critical internal damage, the DHS are extremely vulnerable, and even though they do not explode, taking out DHS on an enemy mech means in the heat of battle, you lose capability to fire. So in that respect, they function like ammo.

· But, ERPPCs don’t run out of ammo!

No, they do not, but as noted, crit the DHS enough, and you will slow their firing. But that isn’t the main issue here. Matches are 15 minutes long, 12 vs. 12. If each ballistic weapon has 3 tons of ammo each has the potential to deliver 450 damage. A dual AC2 / AC5/ UAC5/ AC10/ Gauss mech can each put out 900 damage during that match.

Now, unless you are a very bad shot, that’s pretty significant. If the matches were 30 minutes to an hour long, against 24 mechs, then there would be a chance to run out of ammo and the ERPPC would shine a bit more then. But at current match sizes and times it’s hard to justify using ERPPCs, because normally, with 3 tons of ammo per gun, you are not going to run out, or if you do, it will be near the end of the match if you survived that long.

· But, ERPPCs take less crits!

No, they take more. Look at the figures for Effective Heat Sinks (EHS) to be heat neutral. For 1 ERPPC, it takes 38 EHS. So, you have 10 actual doubles in the engine, that’s 20. You need an additional 12.86 DHS to make a mech with 1 ERPPC heat neutral.

Problem is, with weapons, AMS, equipment, and ammo for the other weapons you will be carrying; you will have room for maybe 8-10, maybe 11. So there is no possibility of getting even 1 ERPPC, never mind 2, heat neutral or even close to it. Dual AC10 mechs CAN BE heat neutral; they each require only 12 EHS. Same with Gauss, at 3 EHS, and AC5/UAC5/UAC5/UAC5 at 7 EHS each and can still fire other weapons, like SSRMs, small and medium lasers, for significantly long periods of time.

This is the problem with PGI balancing by heat. Approaching the historical issues by addressing the root causes, such as convergence, the heat system in general, and the fitting mechanics would have addressed those issues in a more accurate way. Specifically, fitting, due to current mechanics making all mechs effectively omni mechs. Limiting criticals in a location for the weapon types allowed there would have prevented most of the major boating issues.

Currently, given a choice between taking dual long range ballistics, and dual ERPPCs, there is little to nothing to recommend taking the ERPPCs. That’s not balance, and for those mechs that cannot fit ballistics, it is the only long range pinpoint damage available to them. Right now, there is no reason not to use long range ballistics, compared to the ERPPC, and a balanced system would have advantages and disadvantages for both that would make neither superior to the other.

In no way am I advocating that ERPPCs should be heat neutral or near heat neutral. ERPPC heat needs to be lowered back down to 12, or possibly 13, and the ghost heat penalty needs to be increased for ERPPCs used beyond 2 volley fired, to prevent excessive boating. The other option, however, is that the AC10, AC5/UAC5, and Gauss be brought more in line with the current profile for the AC2. This would “balance” out these systems.

EDIT - corrected the Dual Gauss, damage, was 120, s/b 180, and cleaned up the format.
2nd EDIT - Clarified the weights and crits for ERPPCs with DHS at 1

you are entirely correct, simply put the way heat works with er/ppcs vs anything else, it puts the ppc at SUCH a disadvantage in sustained fire that is only recourse is of course.... dont say it pop sniping, hill humping.... i mean what do we expect all these snipers to do (i snipe from time to time as well, with the worst of them) when we give then sniping weapons like heat city PPC and miss ur mark i mean click guass rifle....... idk who said it first but i do second the complete abolition of the ghost heat and making the heat limit LOWER but similarly making heatsinks dissipate heat faster. to encourage players to alpha LOWER and chain fire MORE. rather then always just slamming that alpha button. make DHS actually DHS not 1.4 w/e BS. and then make single HS and DHS NOT lose efficiency wtf? i can understand if YOUR whole mech is like in a lake, or in a volcano but honestly the maps (past the volcano and lava) should not be so #($*#( *(* hot.

also a fair amount of this is from the lack of lobby system. all of us know that if this was any other MW game.... we would all be pimping our mechs for the combat conditions. in fact it is often considered foolish to drop "randomly" without first sizing up the battlefield and prepairing your forces for those conditions.

really i mean who in their RIGHT mind wants to drop in terra therma, in a ppc sniper? even without ghost heat, or a pulse laser battlemaster or awesome in any of heat maps?

also an idea i saw another say worth note. extend all the weapons ranges. see the er/PPC is slowish now, it was always something strange back in MW2 lol. kinda like just turning down the shake/smoke/flashy from getting tapped with ac2's would have been a good solution, maybe er/ppc's need their reach to justify their "high heat, high damage, longe range" weapons profile.

Edited by Mellifluer, 24 October 2013 - 04:41 PM.