532 replies to this topic

[Henry Morgan]

Lupus Aurelius, on 06 October 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

First question you might ask, is why you would even use ERPPC at this heat level, and the lowest DPS of all the sniping weapons?

The math looked good, but your analysis seemed to be only focused on DPS. There's one nice advantage the ERPPC has over the other weapon packages you described. It can knock down an ECM for 4 seconds a hit. Which can be very handy if you're on a team with LRM boats and the enemy is turtled under a nice, big Atlas running ECM.

[Aaron45]

But Er Ppc is 7 tons instead 12 Tons for the Ac10. No change need for the Er ppc´s. They work as intended. I pretty often use them as a single or dual weapon build. Sometimes i Mix a Pcc with a Er ppc.

They are Perfect atm

[Wolfways]

Henry Morgan, on 27 October 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

The math looked good, but your analysis seemed to be only focused on DPS. There's one nice advantage the ERPPC has over the other weapon packages you described. It can knock down an ECM for 4 seconds a hit. Which can be very handy if you're on a team with LRM boats and the enemy is turtled under a nice, big Atlas running ECM.

Yeah that's handy, if the ERPPC mech is willing to stand in the open firing on the ECM mech. It takes much longer than 4 seconds to get a lock and for the missiles to travel to the target.

Legolaas, on 27 October 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

But Er Ppc is 7 tons instead 12 Tons for the Ac10. No change need for the Er ppc´s. They work as intended. I pretty often use them as a single or dual weapon build. Sometimes i Mix a Pcc with a Er ppc.

They are Perfect atm

No.
AC10 = weight plus weight of ammo.
ERPC = weight plus weight of heat sinks.

ERPPC needs way more weight (and crit slots) dedicated to heat sinks than the AC10 needs in ammo.

[Alondo]

Don't really care about the heat that much. I just want PPC's to be hitscan like they're supposed to be. I shouldn't have to lead with a PPC.

[l33tworks]

Completely agree with OP. PGI has yet again another weapon in the useles pile, as they did with the gauss.

ER PPCs are now just used for the sake of variaty and fun or very specialised 12 man super co-ordinated long range sniping under very specific circumstances. In no way are they competive for the average player or on a day to day basis.

What are we going to be left with in the end? Instead of diversifiying the game a I beleive is their intetion, they are just narrowing down the gameplay more and more.

Edited by l33tworks, 27 October 2013 - 12:34 PM.

[anonymous161]

All this talk just makes me wish I was playing mercenaries instead...way less headache of a game, but I doubt if the mp works on some level it can compare tot he population in this game.

Alondo, on 27 October 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Don't really care about the heat that much. I just want PPC's to be hitscan like they're supposed to be. I shouldn't have to lead with a PPC.

I'm pretty sure you always had to make sure you aim a little ahead of the target, it's been that way for about all the games dude. Otherwise it would be a cheap kill in my opinion, hell you have to aim ahead for everything but the lasers really.

[Alondo]

Darth Bane001, on 27 October 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

All this talk just makes me wish I was playing mercenaries instead...way less headache of a game, but I doubt if the mp works on some level it can compare tot he population in this game.



I'm pretty sure you always had to make sure you aim a little ahead of the target, it's been that way for about all the games dude. Otherwise it would be a cheap kill in my opinion, hell you have to aim ahead for everything but the lasers really.

I'm an oldtimer. I remember Mechwarrior. Just plain Mechwarrior. The PPC's in that game were hitscan. Then in Mechwarrior 2, for some wierd reason they made them Balls-O-Death, that moved at arthritic speed. PPC's are near light speed weapons.

Also those folks that say it's for balance,and it's just a game. I've accepted the crazy short ranges of all the weapon systems, I've accepted Heat as a balancing system, I've even accepted (VERY grudgingly), that Mechs don't have 360 degree radar in this game, However I would like a teensy bit of realism, Just a widdle bit pwease?

[Almond Brown]

Wolfways, on 21 October 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

Dual ERPPC's cannot be fired 4 times in 12 seconds. With 20DHS you can fire twice and the third will shut down the mech.

If one forgets their 9 x 9 Flush Module, then yes that is correct. Otherwise, 4 times is totally doable.

[Joseph Mallan]

MischiefSC, on 26 October 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

So now you're trying to bring it around to why MW:O doesn't match TT for heat metrics and performance? It would if the rate of fire wasn't quadrupled. Want to match tt metrics? Fire both of them every 10 seconds or so. 20 DHS would work fine.

Not quite true. The TT Metric was just a Fluff explanation. What happens in one turn is both sides move, fire, physical, total damage and vent heat.cut that in half an you have something a bit more real time. So firing 2 ERPPCs on 20 double sinks should and would be possible, depending on how long you set the PPCs recycle at.

[Lupus Aurelius]

Almond Brown, on 28 October 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

If one forgets their 9 x 9 Flush Module, then yes that is correct. Otherwise, 4 times is totally doable.

Which is a one-off. Truth is, with 20 DHS, 2 ERPPCs, doing nothing else but moving at the time.

Lupus Aurelius, on 23 October 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

...
It's like this: heat neutral map, starting at 0 heat (stationary) thru the entire cycle, the 3rd volley should almost overheat you, the forth will way overheat you:
30, 46.4, 62.8, 79.2



10 engine DHS = 20 heat and 2 heat dissipated per sec
10 external DHS = 14 heat and 1.4 heat dissipated per sec

64 heat capability at 3.4 heat dissipation per second. Table is in .5 sec increments. Remember, even during a volley, you are still dissipating heat so at the 4 sec mark its ((19.8+30)-3.4).

And just a reminder, the charts and data in the OP are 20 DHS for the ERPPC, and just the 10 engine DHS for the ballistics.

So effectively, it's 3 volleys, but taken from a pure math perspective, it's 4 volleys with internal damage from overheat on the forth volley.

20 DHS gives a heat ceiling of 64. Third volley puts your heat at 62.8. That is 1.8 heat from shutdown, so even moving at that time will generate enough heat to cause an overload.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 29 October 2013 - 03:56 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lupus Aurelius, on 29 October 2013 - 03:53 AM, said:

Which is a one-off. Truth is, with 20 DHS, 2 ERPPCs, doing nothing else but moving at the time.



20 DHS gives a heat ceiling of 64. Third volley puts your heat at 62.8. That is 1.8 heat from shutdown, so even moving at that time will generate enough heat to cause an overload.

This is where PGI screws the Pooch. 20 double sinks has never allowed a pair of ERPPCs to over heat except in the short lived, and mostly ignored original Solaris Boxset. Ceiling should be a flat 30, and sinks should work faster. A turn is 10 seconds... including the fun parts of weapons fire and physical attacks. That leaves... 5 seconds to vent heat in a turn.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lupus Aurelius, on 29 October 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

One thing I am surprised about that no one, pro or con has mentioned,

In TT, yes, the ERPPC did 15 heat in it's 10 sec turn. But it also did 15 damage. The PPC did 10 damage for 10 heat, the ERPPC 15 damage for 15 heat.

Clan PPC did 15 damage, We are not using those yet. You will need to wait for those tears to flow.

[Lupus Aurelius]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 October 2013 - 04:39 AM, said:

Clan PPC did 15 damage, We are not using those yet. You will need to wait for those tears to flow.

Agreed, and I realized that as soon as it was posted and deleted it. This is why I should not post before my second cup of caffeine in the morning...

Joseph Mallan, on 29 October 2013 - 04:34 AM, said:

This is where PGI screws the Pooch. 20 double sinks has never allowed a pair of ERPPCs to over heat except in the short lived, and mostly ignored original Solaris Boxset. Ceiling should be a flat 30, and sinks should work faster. A turn is 10 seconds... including the fun parts of weapons fire and physical attacks. That leaves... 5 seconds to vent heat in a turn.

Also agreed. But I would add that heat should be ratioed based on firing speed, and possible damage as well.
So if the firing speed is 2.5. then heat is 1/4 of TT and damage is 1/4 TT, if you keep the rate of dissipation of SHS and DHS the same as in TT.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 29 October 2013 - 04:58 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lupus Aurelius, on 29 October 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

Agreed, and I realized that as soon as it was posted and deleted it.

No worries.

Quote

Also agreed. But I would add that heat should be ratioed based on firing speed, and possible damage as well.

So if the firing speed is 2.5. then heat is 1/4 of TT and damage is 1/4 TT, if you keep the rate of dissipation of SHS and DHS the same as in TT.

I don't think I agree. Each pull of the trigger is half a turn, with recycle time being the second half. I see it more like Full damage, recycle, Vent heat (3-5 seconds) while recharging. So fast cycling weapons will still tax the sinks.

[B1zmark]

This is being examined in a vacuum. ER PPC's are preferable to regular PPC's due to no minimum range. No Ammo is more than 3-5 tons in saved weight. You see PPC mechs doing 600-800 damage a game if they are good, which is the equivilent of 4-6 tons of ammo for an AC20 assuming 100% accuracy and eprfect optimal range. In reality its closer to 8 tons of ammo. That's ok, if you figure instead you need to fit 4-8 tons of DHS's to keep them firing consistenly.

The next contributing factor is the slot size. 2x PPC's (ER or otherwise) uses 6 slots, that's the same as 1 AC/10, despite it having the same alpha as an AC/20, but with better range and projectile speed than the later. Thats more room for XL engines, Heat sinks, FF armor and ENDO.

Damage per second, Damage per ton, Damage per Crit-Slot, Ammo Per Ton and Damage per heat are all big factors. When it boils down to it, you can't be even CLOSE to heat stable when using Energy weapons, as the lack of ammo means heat is the only factor that limits how much you can fire. In a single match you know how many rounds of ballistic ammo you have, regardless of match length. With energy weapons, the longer the match lasts, the better they become. That's a type of balance.

I run a YLW with 4 tons of ammo. That means i can do, best case Scenario, 560 AC/20 damage. I've hit 700-900 damage per game in my YLW and i know i have around 80% AC/20 accuracy at best (based on hit ratio and damage lost in post-optimal ranges). That leaves a LOT of damage for 2 energy weapons to do - which aren't even close to being heat stable. That's not counting games i do 500 damage after loosing my arm within the first 2-3 minutes.

Long story short, i'm glad PPC's got a big nerf. They where terrifyingly dominant before and only now do you have to ask yourself "Hmmm, should i go PPC's or get a ballistic?". The answer is usually dependant on a number of factors... a few patches ago it was "Lol, Ballistics. Noob. Fit PPC's".

[Andross Deverow]

Nebelfeuer, on 06 October 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

Very impressive OP and very right. ERPPC are way to hot currently.

ER PPC are not too hot. They are good where they are. They are not meant to be boated which is where mos of the complainers come from. The weapon is now a niche gun. Which is how it is meant to be.
I currently have around 8 mechs with a single ER PPC on them along with a good balanced brawl setup and or maybe a little more range damage. I seldomly overheat as I use the hot gun for its designed pourpose of dishing 10 pinpoint damage at extreme or long range.
Medium range just switch it up to lrms, ballistic or a heavy laser. Short range have a few med lasers and or some srms.
Its not rocket science, its heat management and a balanced set-up. Of course people are going to have problems when they dont make balanced builds, loading up on hot guns they deserve to overheat.

Regards,

[Lupus Aurelius]

B1zmark, on 29 October 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

This is being examined in a vacuum. ER PPC's are preferable to regular PPC's due to no minimum range. No Ammo is more than 3-5 tons in saved weight. You see PPC mechs doing 600-800 damage a game if they are good, which is the equivilent of 4-6 tons of ammo for an AC20 assuming 100% accuracy and eprfect optimal range. In reality its closer to 8 tons of ammo. That's ok, if you figure instead you need to fit 4-8 tons of DHS's to keep them firing consistenly.

The next contributing factor is the slot size. 2x PPC's (ER or otherwise) uses 6 slots, that's the same as 1 AC/10, despite it having the same alpha as an AC/20, but with better range and projectile speed than the later. Thats more room for XL engines, Heat sinks, FF armor and ENDO.

Damage per second, Damage per ton, Damage per Crit-Slot, Ammo Per Ton and Damage per heat are all big factors. When it boils down to it, you can't be even CLOSE to heat stable when using Energy weapons, as the lack of ammo means heat is the only factor that limits how much you can fire. In a single match you know how many rounds of ballistic ammo you have, regardless of match length. With energy weapons, the longer the match lasts, the better they become. That's a type of balance.

I run a YLW with 4 tons of ammo. That means i can do, best case Scenario, 560 AC/20 damage. I've hit 700-900 damage per game in my YLW and i know i have around 80% AC/20 accuracy at best (based on hit ratio and damage lost in post-optimal ranges). That leaves a LOT of damage for 2 energy weapons to do - which aren't even close to being heat stable. That's not counting games i do 500 damage after loosing my arm within the first 2-3 minutes.

Long story short, i'm glad PPC's got a big nerf. They where terrifyingly dominant before and only now do you have to ask yourself "Hmmm, should i go PPC's or get a ballistic?". The answer is usually dependant on a number of factors... a few patches ago it was "Lol, Ballistics. Noob. Fit PPC's".

Go back and read the OP, because your head must be in a vacuum.

Lupus Aurelius, on 06 October 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

...
First question you might ask, is why you would even use ERPPC at this heat level, and the lowest DPS of all the sniping weapons? Speed is now the same as the AC5/UAC5s, so it still has a faster travel time than the AC10, same damage as the AC10. The fact of having less than a third the crits necessary for an AC10 is not significant, since that amounts to, on the dual setups, 14 more crits, which is 4 more external DHS. The data presented earlier is based on 5 external DHS, which makes the ERPPC 18 crits and 12 tons.

· But, ERPPCs don’t need ammo!

Yes they do, heat sinks are the ammo of ERPPCs. Due to the current heat levels, you have no choice but to run DHS, because the engine HS actually run as double HS. In order to compensate for using SHS, and additional 10 tons and 10 crits is necessary, just to get you to the level of a DHS engine.

And, ammo takes 1 crit, DHS take 3 crits. When taking critical internal damage, the DHS are extremely vulnerable, and even though they do not explode, taking out DHS on an enemy mech means in the heat of battle, you lose capability to fire. So in that respect, they function like ammo.

· But, ERPPCs don’t run out of ammo!

No, they do not, but as noted, crit the DHS enough, and you will slow their firing. But that isn’t the main issue here. Matches are 15 minutes long, 12 vs. 12. If each ballistic weapon has 3 tons of ammo each has the potential to deliver 450 damage. A dual AC2 / AC5/ UAC5/ AC10/ Gauss mech can each put out 900 damage during that match.

Now, unless you are a very bad shot, that’s pretty significant. If the matches were 30 minutes to an hour long, against 24 mechs, then there would be a chance to run out of ammo and the ERPPC would shine a bit more then. But at current match sizes and times it’s hard to justify using ERPPCs, because normally, with 3 tons of ammo per gun, you are not going to run out, or if you do, it will be near the end of the match if you survived that long.

· But, ERPPCs take less crits!

No, they take more. Look at the figures for Effective Heat Sinks (EHS) to be heat neutral. For 1 ERPPC, it takes 38 EHS. So, you have 10 actual doubles in the engine, that’s 20. You need an additional 12.86 DHS to make a mech with 1 ERPPC heat neutral.

Problem is, with weapons, AMS, equipment, and ammo for the other weapons you will be carrying; you will have room for maybe 8-10, maybe 11. So there is no possibility of getting even 1 ERPPC, never mind 2, heat neutral or even close to it. Dual AC10 mechs CAN BE heat neutral; they each require only 12 EHS. Same with Gauss, at 3 EHS, and AC5/UAC5/UAC5/UAC5 at 7 EHS each and can still fire other weapons, like SSRMs, small and medium lasers, for significantly long periods of time.

...
Currently, given a choice between taking dual long range ballistics, and dual ERPPCs, there is little to nothing to recommend taking the ERPPCs. That’s not balance, and for those mechs that cannot fit ballistics, it is the only long range pinpoint damage available to them. Right now, there is no reason not to use long range ballistics, compared to the ERPPC, and a balanced system would have advantages and disadvantages for both that would make neither superior to the other.

In no way am I advocating that ERPPCs should be heat neutral or near heat neutral. ERPPC heat needs to be lowered back down to 12, or possibly 13, and the ghost heat penalty needs to be increased for ERPPCs used beyond 2 volley fired, to prevent excessive boating. The other option, however, is that the AC10, AC5/UAC5, and Gauss be brought more in line with the current profile for the AC2. This would “balance” out these systems.

You might want to read this also, considering it compares 2 builds on the same chassis : http://mwomercs.com/...35#entry2771535

Andross Deverow, on 29 October 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

They are not meant to be boated which is where mos of the complainers come from. The weapon is now a niche gun. Which is how it is meant to be.

Really? And just where does it say that other than in your head?

Generations of Awesome pilots would tell you differently. It's a primary weapon on mechs that do not have ballistic capability.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 29 October 2013 - 10:30 AM.

[Wolfways]

Andross Deverow, on 29 October 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

Medium range just switch it up to lrms,

That says so much
But that's for another thread.

[Khobai]

ERPPCs need less heat and less range. The whole point of the ER weapons is that they generate more heat in exchange for more range. So if you decrease the range on the ERPPC than lowering the heat can be justified.

Reduce ERPPC range from 810m back to its canon 690m
Reduce heat from 15 to 13.5

[Shifty Eyes]

Very long thread, I haven't read it all, so I'm sorry if someone addressed this.

Good data, but the DHS portion isn't relevant to all mechs and variants. I'm sure the focus of the data is on larger mechs and boating, but plenty of medium and lights can afford to pack an ERPPC (and in fact need to if it's their primary weapon) with none or one external DHS. These mechs usually don't pack enough poundage to lug around larger AC's with their ammo.

So, for me, the ERPPC has a place, although it's a small one. Maybe that's OK.