89 replies to this topic

[GioAvanti]

I don't visit these forums every day so you guys can provide updates if you know more than what I know... I know this has probably been brought up a lot, but I hope I have some new points that people haven't thought of.

Balance issues with the clans -

Overview: clan mechs are just better in every way. Clan equipment is better in just very way. So from a basic viewpoint I see clan gear being efectively double heat sinks, but now for every bit of gear. (Everything is now mandatory....and noobs will be at a pretty much insurmountable disadvantage). This is assuming IS mechs can even use clan gear for this game (lore wise you could).

1) Clan weapons are better in every way up until the invention of the rotary ac5. They run hotter on average, but that's mainly due to the awesomeness of them. They are on average... lighter, better range, take up less room AND do significantly more damage. We're looking at MUCH higher dps and a much greater alpha potential.

This advantage is VERY significant - A clan er ppc does 50% more damage, is 1 ton less and takes up 1 less slot.

Clan's don't have basic autocannon either... we'll have to deal with ultra ac 20's..... which are small enough to fit in a side torso along with a clan xl engine...

Clan LRM 20's only weigh 6 tons....and take up 4 slots (if memory serves me right)... dunno about you guys.... but I've already seen a 6 lrm15 catapult.... get ready for a 6 lrm20 catapult... with 6 additional tons of room...

2) Clan XL engines only have 2 criticals in a side location.....pretty much takes away the downside for using XL engines. It makes clan mechs much more durable... also it will make XL engines must haves for every mech. (most assaults once losing both sides are husks anyway)

3) Double heat sinks only take 2 slots. This could be big also....

4) Even if you restrict clan mechs to their prime, a, b , c , d variants only.... (which isn't lore by any stretch of the imagination) they are still going to be better and will take little to no hit. The omni variants are already specialized... you really aren't limiting anything (ie their are LRM boats, SRM boats, snipers, brawlers already configured regardless).

5) Given our current heat situation the only downside I see for the clans are their heat curves... but that really only impacts alphas... 4 clan er ppcs on the warhawk/masakari is going to be 60 damage....just chain firing that is going to be nasty.

6) Even if you restrict clan to 2 stars (10 mechs) instead of 12... they'll be heavily outclassing the inner sphere mechs... that's going to scare off new people.

7) Who will actually play IS mechs period? I know some people are like... so what? But why even implement IS mechs then? Why not just make this a clan mech game? Save us a couple years? I personally will be pretty sad if everyone just uses clan mechs.. probably to the point of giving up on the game. People are min/maxers by nature... so everyone even remotely competitive will go clan.



These are just my thoughts... I'm just afraid of this game turning into MW2 mech wise....or seeing the game turn into a horrible cbill grind where you have to replace everything on an inner sphere mech to just make it useable. (Ie you need a clan version of everything).

[Wispsy]

I reckon just make it so clans can only field 60% of the mechs the IS can.

Edited by Wispsy, 07 October 2013 - 08:14 AM.

[FupDup]

Clan tech discussions are starting to get repetitive, we already all know the issues associated and PGI will allegedly try to avoid some of those issues (they may or may not succeed at it).

Clan stock builds will be utter trash without any shadow of a doubt, because they are designed just as poorly as Inner Sphere stocks (i.e. Madcat has MG ammo in the center torso, Warhawk uses FF instead of Endo, etc.).

The only issue here would be Clan customs, which can potentially be very abusive with things like SSRM6, LRM20 (5 tons and no min range!), ERPPC (15 damage per hit), ERML (it's a Large Laser that only weighs 1 ton!), All UAC calibers (particularly the 20), and their smaller DHS will allow mechs to easily pack in a lot of sinks for ridiculously high capacity. One example is that a Clan assault mech with 4 ERPPCs will have enough slots to cram in 30 DHS, which would give it a heat capacity of around 93 in MWO. Assuming current heat and ghost heat values for the ERPPCs, this means that the 4 CERPPC Clan mech would handle an all-out alpha strike almost as well as a 4 PPC Stalker used to be able to do prior to ghost heat. Be afraid.

Edited by FupDup, 07 October 2013 - 08:17 AM.

[King Picollo]

I was under the impression they were just going to balance the Clan mechs and weaponry to match the existing IS Arsenal.

Not ideal, but at least all the current weaponry doesn't become obsolete over night.

[MustrumRidcully]

I think FupDup covered it all.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 07 October 2013 - 08:23 AM.

[Scratx]

Clan LRMs are actually fairly easy to balance out if one wishes to go far enough.

Shallower trajectory angle (let it splash hills where IS LRMs don't, clan don't stinkin' need indirect fire ), 630m range, no minimum range. There you go? Lighter launcher tonnage and no close range vulnerability in return for a much diminished battlefield control power. If you want to use them you're going to have to be close enough to your target such that he can shoot back right at you...

[Krivvan]

I thought ghost heat was additionally meant to balance clan equipment.

[General Taskeen]

Hehe, with the current state of ham-fisted functionality of aspects of this game, expect "clan" things to be equally frustrating to use. MWO game balance is more like musical chairs, its not cohesive and simply all over the place. So fear not, if IS stuff isn't balanced relative to one another, then expect more of the same.

Edited by General Taskeen, 07 October 2013 - 09:03 AM.

[DarkDevilDancer]

If is mechs get clan tech what's the point of playing clans? in lore clan pilots are better on an individual basis but in the game we cant replicate that a bad player in a timberwolf will die as fast as a bad player in an Orion.

So numbers alone won't ensure balance, perhaps weight limits would do better, again in lore clans took half the force so If clans have the same number of mechs but 60% of the weight that might work, a thirty ton kitfox can carry better weapons than most mediums after all.

[Vodrin Thales]

Wispsy, on 07 October 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

I reckon just make it so clans can only field 60% of the mechs the IS can.

I don't think so. I think they are just going to make the rate of fire for the clans far lower than for IS. PGI has hinted strongly that they intend to make clan tech weaker than in TT, and thus making a 1v1 between a clan mech and similar tonnage IS mech an even fight.

[Tom Sawyer]

Vodrin Thales, on 07 October 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

I don't think so. I think they are just going to make the rate of fire for the clans far lower than for IS. PGI has hinted strongly that they intend to make clan tech weaker than in TT, and thus making a 1v1 between a clan mech and similar tonnage IS mech an even fight.

Sorry doing this will break the lore that makes battletech more than just giant robots. The Clan invasion drove the IS nearly to destruction and forced the houses (abet briefly) to band together and make a stand. It also helped spur the IS to once more develop new and better mechs. To dilute this so that clan mechs and IS mechs are equal at first will be so wrong.

[Gaan Cathal]

It's not actually that monumental a task to balance them, especially when you consider that Clan mechs don't get any more hitpoints than Inner Sphere ones.

• 12 vs 10 - fits canon unit sizes, gives Clans a substantial disadvantage (same HP, remember?)
  
• Normalise Clan weapon damage to Inner Sphere equivalent (no, really, it doesn't actually need to be better if you...)
  
• Retain Clan equipment tonnage and size
  
• Retain ability for Clan XL engines to survive one side torso destruction (but not two)
  
• Provide no avenue for Inner Sphere players to gain Clan Technology of any sort, and vica versa but...
  
• Introduce Inner Sphere LB-X, Ultra-AC, ER Laser and SSRM variants that are currently not in place
  
• Probably retain Clan range advantage and heat disadvantage

Bear in mind that not only are Clan mechs not substantively tougher than Inner Sphere mechs (CASE not withstanding) but most comparisons are based on Stock fit vs Stock fit which is disingenuous. Most stock Clan mechs are designed properly (i.e. with complimentary weapons, DHS and Endo-steel) where as most stock Inner Sphere designs are the ravings of a lunatic. Once you give Inner Sphere mechs sensible loadouts, DHS and Endo-steel (and XL engines where appropriate) the gap narrows significantly.

[Khobai]

Quote

I don't think so. I think they are just going to make the rate of fire for the clans far lower than for IS.

I doubt it. Clan tech is supposed to be outright better. If you made it fire slower it would be a sidegrade instead of an upgrade.

I think think Clan tech WILL be better than IS in every way. But the margin of how much better it is wont be as severe as in tabletop. I think for the most part clan and IS weapons will be identical in stats except clan weapons will weigh less and take up less crits.

My guess is clan weapons will be roughly 20% better than IS weapons and then 10v12 will balance things out for the IS side. 10v12 makes sense since its 2 stars vs 3 lances.

Quote

Retain ability for Clan XL engines to survive one side torso destruction (but not two)

IMO this needs to change from tabletop. Otherwise every single clan mech gets a massive tonnage increase with no real downside. I personally think IS XL engines should be able to survive 4 crit slot destructions and Clan XL engines should be able to survive 5 crit slot destructions. That would make XL engines much better for IS since they could survive losing one side torso. And honestly you should be able to survive losing a side torso with XL, because of aiming/convergence making XLs so much more vulnerable compared to tabletop.

Edited by Khobai, 07 October 2013 - 09:36 AM.

[CtrlAltWheee]

Gaan Cathal, on 07 October 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

Most stock Clan mechs are designed properly (i.e. with complimentary weapons, DHS and Endo-steel) where as most stock Inner Sphere designs are the ravings of a lunatic.

This busted me up.

[Gaan Cathal]

Khobai, on 07 October 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

IMO this needs to change from tabletop. Otherwise every single clan mech gets a massive tonnage increase with no real downside. I personally think IS XL engines should be able to survive 4 crit slot destructions and Clan XL engines should be able to survive 5 crit slot destructions. That would make XL engines much better for IS since they could survive losing one side torso. And honestly you should be able to survive losing a side torso with XL, because of aiming/convergence making XLs so much more vulnerable compared to tabletop.

The problem is that Clans don't really have non-XL engines. Certainly every front-line Omnimech I can think of runs an XL. It's not really an upgrade for them, same as Endosteel. They come with it. Their tonnage advantage needs to be there to compensate for the loss of two players.

[Macbrea]

So, Let's see how to balance the some concerns you listed.

1) Ultra-AC 2, 10, 20 (The fix to this has partially already been done to UAC/5) Jam Rates should be 15/20/25/35% respectively for 2/5/10/20. This makes them powerful but not nessessarily overpowered.

2) An engine is destroyed when it takes 3 critical slot hits. Each Critical slot hit before that results in a speed decrease and heat increase. The clan 2 slots in their left and right torsos are their advantage.

2a) My suggestion though is because Omni-Mechs aren't very prone to massive changes like the Inner Sphere is limit their engine to not be exchangeable. This allows the clan to start powerful but be limited in a lore like fashion.

3) Double heat sinks are 1.4 for 3 slots Innersphere. They should be fine being 1.4 for 2 slots clan as long as Clan heat sinks cannot be purchased by non-omni-mechs. If they really feel that is overpowered, it could be possible that Clan heat sinks are 1.2 for 2 slots vs Inner Sphere's 1.4 for 3 slots.

6) Stars are 5 mechs each, Clan should drop in 2 stars per match.

7) If they restrict down the ability to change out engines, and limit down the hard points to reasonable numbers. There will be innersphere players.

[Scratx]

CtrlAltWheee, on 07 October 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

This busted me up.

I agree.

Granted, the average clan mech is better designed than the average IS mech, but there are quite a few mechs and configurations that are downright hilarious.

Hellbringer aside (I do NOT need to explain that to connoisseurs), there are some configs where if you alpha in TT you shutdown and/or risk ammo explosions. In MWO I can just imagine a Warhawk alpha'ing all 4 ER PPCs....

[DerSpecht]

Are we discussing not implemented features again?

[Wilhelm Fraek]

They would have to put some system in to balance out the amount of clan players and IS players or it wont really matter how they balance it out, add small discounts to the IS equipement and mechs when the clans come out. if everything stays as is why would i waste my time with something that is inferior in every way when I could just move on the clan mechs and enjoy myself.

There needs to be a good reason for players to stick with IS.

[Scratx]

DerSpecht, on 07 October 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

Are we discussing not implemented features again?

Why yes, we are, good sir. Enjoy!