89 replies to this topic

[Rascula]

Given the timescale to introduce community warfare, I really don't think you'll be seeing any clan mechs any time soon, even if we do they would have to be introduced in such a way that there advantages aren't totally game breaking for the existing players and mechs.

Not mixing tech <too much> would seem a good start, as would 10 v 12 or a variation that theme.. but really its going to be down to how much or preferably how little tech they let be swapped between clanners and the innersphere players

[Wilhelm Fraek]

well to put it simply look at when the board atlas came out the was between 3-4 in every match for the first 2 days, no imagine that with clan mechs. People want the new shiny, the moment you tell them about new weapons new mechs new stuff in general they want it. So for the first week or so I can see it being bad.

[DerSpecht]

Screw all that speculation about clantech. Clan LRM without min range. XXL engines and UAC2s.. I just want my thor with 360° torso twist!

[Scratx]

DerSpecht, on 07 October 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

Screw all that speculation about clantech. Clan LRM without min range. XXL engines and UAC2s.. I just want my thor with 360° torso twist!

That's the spirit!

I don't like XXL engines, though, too many crits and generate extra heat on movement. And let's not mention the price tag.

[Almond Brown]

Just as a quick note. The IS never reverse engineered the Clan UAC20 until 3060. So if the Clans get them out of the gate (Clan Steel Viper) then that could be seen as a mistake.

[DerSpecht]

Almond Brown, on 07 October 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

Just as a quick note. The IS never reverse engineered the Clan UAC20 until 3060. So if the Clans get them out of the gate (Clan Steel Viper) then that could be seen as a mistake.

According to the timeline we shouldnt have Artemis / Armor upgrades,ER PPCs, ER Lasers and double heatsinks and shoulndt be able to aim further than 600 meters. Now what sherlock?

[Joseph Mallan]

ER PPCs ER Lasers, FF Armor and double Sinks are indeed 3050 reintroduced tech.

[WhoDidTheElf]

Keep clan tech as OP as it is in TT. Drops are 12IS vs. 10Clan. Increase the CB bonus for winning for the IS. Double salvage, since well clan tech is worth more. Increase the CB bonus for assists and kills since there are less of them.

If you increase the winnings significantly enough for IS people will play it to drop the grind times down. Especially if clan tech is going to cost a small fortune.

[Almond Brown]

DerSpecht, on 07 October 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

According to the timeline we shouldnt have Artemis / Armor upgrades,ER PPCs, ER Lasers and double heatsinks and shoulndt be able to aim further than 600 meters. Now what sherlock?

You just can't help but be a "douche" can you dude?

sigh. See post below yours... Sherlock.

Edited by Almond Brown, 07 October 2013 - 10:37 AM.

[Gaan Cathal]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 October 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

ER PPCs ER Lasers, FF Armor and double Sinks are indeed 3050 reintroduced tech.

Jo, since you're a TT buff without being a disagreeable grognard...


How much of an issue would it really be for you if the Inner Sphere mechs got access to their versions of weapon variants they've not got fully expanded yet in time for Clan introduction? ER medium and small lasers, full range of LB-X and UAC and SSRM4/6 is what I'm talking about (don't think I've missed anything). I'm aware there's something of a timeline lag, but we're well off the 1:1 track now, and I really see it benefiting the game to introduce the full variety in the name of both logic and balance. But I'm a MW2 vet, not a TT vet so...I dunno. Would it be a dealbreaker to fudge it that little bit?

[Artgathan]

10 v 12 won't work, because it forces a binary "Clan vs IS" approach to play. What it fails to account for are players in merc corps that have clan tech. For instance, a 10v12 system would prevent a lance of Blackjack, Centurion, Hunchback and Ryoken (Stormcrow) from existing. This means that if I only have Clan tech, and my friend only has IS tech, I can't play with them, I can only play against them. This is bad.

I think Clan tech will be better, but the heat will burn them alive. There aren't enough slots on a mech to make 4 ERPPC cool with 1.4DHS. (With a 400XL and all standard components, a Makasari with 4 ERPPC could fit 10 engine DHS + 21 external DHS. Heat Generation per Second = 15, Dissipation per Second = 4.94).

[Joseph Mallan]

Gaan Cathal, on 07 October 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

Jo, since you're a TT buff without being a disagreeable grognard...


How much of an issue would it really be for you if the Inner Sphere mechs got access to their versions of weapon variants they've not got fully expanded yet in time for Clan introduction? ER medium and small lasers, full range of LB-X and UAC and SSRM4/6 is what I'm talking about (don't think I've missed anything). I'm aware there's something of a timeline lag, but we're well off the 1:1 track now, and I really see it benefiting the game to introduce the full variety in the name of both logic and balance. But I'm a MW2 vet, not a TT vet so...I dunno. Would it be a dealbreaker to fudge it that little bit?

Some I'm fine with some not. Things like the Medium ERs I don't care, but the Ultra 20 for the IS... well as long as it was "slightly" inferior I could see coming slightly after meeting the Clans. Same with the LB-X. Clans are supposed to be ahead of us to start. They are the Boogiemen, come to steal our children in their sleep. Timeline wise, The 10th Lyran Guards have served the Falcons their first defeat already. So some Clan Tech could be being studied already.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 07 October 2013 - 10:53 AM.

[Gaan Cathal]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 October 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

Some I'm fine with some not. Things like the Medium ERs I don't care, but the Ultra 20 for the IS... well as long as it was "slightly" inferior I could see coming slightly after meeting the Clans. Same with the LB-X. Clans are supposed to be ahead of us to start. They are the Boogiemen, come to steal our children in their sleep. Timeline wise, The 10th Lyran Guards have served the Falcons their first defeat already. So some Clan Tech could be being studied already.

My logic is that these things technologies already exist in the Inner Sphere. A UAC/20 is only as different to an AC/20 as a UAC/5 is to an AC/5 after all. It's entirely possible that seeing them fitted on Clan mechs is the impetus to develop them, of course, but the actual development doesn't require any de novo work. And the Clan variant would still be superior by virtue of Tonnage/Crit Slot requirements allowing them to load Moar Stuff (and their generally increased ranges, if I remember rightly).

Artgathan, on 07 October 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

10 v 12 won't work, because it forces a binary "Clan vs IS" approach to play. What it fails to account for are players in merc corps that have clan tech. For instance, a 10v12 system would prevent a lance of Blackjack, Centurion, Hunchback and Ryoken (Stormcrow) from existing. This means that if I only have Clan tech, and my friend only has IS tech, I can't play with them, I can only play against them. This is bad.

Inner Sphere factions (merc corps) shouldn't have access to Clan Technology. What works for a Tabletop Wargame does not necessarily work for an FPS, and IMO this is one of those things. If you keep two factions entirely distinct, you can achieve asymmetric balance. If you allow any bleedthrough then you have to assume every Inner Sphere player is in a mech entirely kitted out with Clan tech, meaning that the only difference is the shape of their mechs, which would be a greater disservice to the setting than disallowing technology transfer.

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 07 October 2013 - 11:19 AM.

[Odins Fist]

Clan Mechs and IS Mechs will probably have the same weapon systems available to each..

I simply do not see PGI creating some convoluted, wonky, absurd 8 v 12 type of setup for a match..

Do you know what 8 v 12 will do..?? It will tell players that Clan Tech is so much better than IS tech, and at that point nobody will want to run IS tech if it is indeed that much more inferior to Clan Tech Weapons...

EXAMPLE: If they release a Clan Weapon that has the same heat as it's IS counterpart, BUT it has twice the range, and hits harder, then be sure that everyone that can do so will dump the IS weapon counterpart in a split second.

EXAMPLE: If they release a Clan Mech that has a distinct speed advantage, and also lets just say for the sake of argument it also has an XL engine that doesn't stick out into the side torso, them be sure that everyone will dump their coutner part IS Mech in favor of the Clan Mech..

We have already seen what weapons with balance changes that have affected the choice of weapons that MWO players run.

EXAMPLE: When the LRM apocalypse happened, everyone and their cousins ran LRMs. When PPCs were changed, everyone and their brother grabbed a PPC weapon. ETC, ETC, ETC, ETC...

So do you think Clan Tech and Mechs will be so much better then IS Tech and Mechs as to make ALL of the IS mechs we have bought up until now useless..?? Not likely, that would be a bad business decision, they want CUSTOMERS to feel like they have a wide variety of viable, and valuable mechs that can compete with Clan Tech and Mechs, or that will make almost every IS mech instantly worthless/useless.

The smart money would predict that Clan Tech will be on par with IS tech, and that all weapons systems will be available to all mechs.. 10 v 12 wouldn't be a big deal, but 8 v 12 would be a red flag...

If Clan Tech isn't better than IS tech, then no reason for wonky 8 v 12 or even 10 v 12.

Edited by Odins Fist, 07 October 2013 - 11:21 AM.

[Gaan Cathal]

Odins Fist, on 07 October 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

Clan Mechs and IS Mechs will probably have the same weapon systems available to each..

I simply do not see PGI creating some convoluted, wonky, absurd 8 v 12 type of setup for a match..

Do you know what 8 v 12 will do..?? It will tell players that Clan Tech is so much better than IS tech, and at that point nobody will want to run IS tech if it is indeed that much more inferior to Clan Tech Weapons...

Plenty of very good competitive games have used asymmetric balance, often to great effect.

[Arcaist]

For all those who stomp with their feet at the ground and demand PGI to stick with their "balance" to the lore...I want
you to keep in mind, that you will run out of opponents pretty soon..

Because the same thing will happen, as it was back when the clans were introduced in TT.
Suddenly everyone wanted to play clans, for it was sooooo easy to win against even good IS players, just
because the clan mechs were so overpowered, that u actually didnt have to be a good tactician...

So I dont know HOW PGI is gonna take care of that balancing problem, but for me its obvious that they HAVE
to get away from the lore...otherwise there will be just clans vs clans matches.

[NocturnalBeast]

Magic 8-ball, will PGI's implementation of clan tech be overpowered?......."My vision is cloudy, ask again at a later time."

Your conjecture is equally helpful.

[Richee]

i think what they could do is give every IS mech a " clan tech slot', similar like how the modules function. this slot could be filled with any clan tech such as er large lasers, er ppcs, xl engines, endo steel frames and ferro fibrous armor, ect. as you progress towards eliteing and mastering your mech chassis you could unlock more clan tech slots to a maximum of 5 or something. this combined with the hefty expense of clan tech would help to limit IS players boating clan tech and force them to choose carefully what kind of clan equipment they really want. and this would also help to alleviate the advantage that the clans would have.
i don't know how good this system would work in practice but in theory it sounds pretty solid, to me anyway.

[CyclonerM]

Ed Steele, on 07 October 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

"My vision is cloudy, ask again at a later time."

Your conjecture is equally helpful.

Nova Cat vision?

[Khobai]

Quote

The problem is that Clans don't really have non-XL engines. Certainly every front-line Omnimech I can think of runs an XL. It's not really an upgrade for them, same as Endosteel. They come with it. Their tonnage advantage needs to be there to compensate for the loss of two players.

Yes they do. Theres clan mechs that use standard engines.