89 replies to this topic

[Blazing Angel]

A good way to fix this is to make it to where you have to 'find' clan tech to assemble mechs and the guns, so people will have to earn them and it could take awhile.

[Gremlich Johns]

Absolutely no cross-teching (either way)

[HugoStiglitz]

Tom Sawyer, on 07 October 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

Sorry doing this will break the lore that makes battletech more than just giant robots. The Clan invasion drove the IS nearly to destruction and forced the houses (abet briefly) to band together and make a stand. It also helped spur the IS to once more develop new and better mechs. To dilute this so that clan mechs and IS mechs are equal at first will be so wrong.

So you want them to use the cannon values for clan weaponry? The lore doesn't support good balance. In almost all cases clan tech is an upgrade with only a few cases where IS tech is marginally better (rotary autocannon). It would be much better and less of a headache to make the clan tech 'feel' more powerfull or different, while having similar dps.

[Odins Fist]

Gaan Cathal, on 07 October 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

Plenty of very good competitive games have used asymmetric balance, often to great effect.

The point was this... If better, stronger, faster, more efficient Mechs and Tech are offered for players to obtain, then they will do so in great numbers.

Do you really think they will not..?? If Clan tech were to be implemented as "so much better" then IS Tech currently is, then people will simply want the Clan Tech over the IS tech..

Look at the track record for flavor of the month weapons balance and the weapons that people use.
When they buff a weapon, hordes of players flock to it, when they nerf that weapon, people drop it in favor of something better.

Asymmetrical match making will only work "IF" Clan tech is much better than IS Tech... Players will RAGE if it isn't and they run 8 v 12 matches, and I will bet you money on that.
MWO is NOT BattleTech-Table Top, only based on BattleTech-Table Top to an extent, so we will see what happens next, but I can tell you this, I know of a lot of people that are giving MWO until December to deliver something other than what it is now.

If it's announced that Clan versus IS will be 8 v 12, that will be your red flag to know how much better Clan Tech should be when implemented, and if it's not better than IS Tech with 8 V 12, then it will fail.
End of Story.... the community will set fire to the forums, just Like Nero did to Rome.

It will be fairly easy to predict once they announce match sizes for Clan vs IS... Unless they drop the ball.

Edited by Odins Fist, 07 October 2013 - 01:04 PM.

[Artgathan]

Gaan Cathal, on 07 October 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

Inner Sphere factions (merc corps) shouldn't have access to Clan Technology. What works for a Tabletop Wargame does not necessarily work for an FPS, and IMO this is one of those things. If you keep two factions entirely distinct, you can achieve asymmetric balance. If you allow any bleedthrough then you have to assume every Inner Sphere player is in a mech entirely kitted out with Clan tech, meaning that the only difference is the shape of their mechs, which would be a greater disservice to the setting than disallowing technology transfer.

What works for a tabletop wargame does not necessarily work as a good business practice either. Preventing mix-tech (in the sense that players using clan tech and IS tech can't be on the same team) effectively divides the player base and can prevent friends from playing with one another. This a poor business practice, especially in a game the will revolve heavily around forming and playing in groups. Given the inherent expense of Clan technology, this would essentially divide the game between Paying Customers and the Free Players.

Also this oft-touted solution from TT ("make the clans bring less mechs!") fails on another point - that of the pilots. Clan Pilots are superior to IS pilots (and are equipped with targeting computers that let them hit more). This will not hold true for MW:O, unless PGI has plans to add volunteers from the game to some sort of gene-modification program.

If we allow bleedthrough we only need a metric to determine the worth of Mech X with Pilot Y. Elo is a starting point for this.

[Gaan Cathal]

Artgathan, on 07 October 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

What works for a tabletop wargame does not necessarily work as a good business practice either. Preventing mix-tech (in the sense that players using clan tech and IS tech can't be on the same team) effectively divides the player base and can prevent friends from playing with one another. This a poor business practice, especially in a game the will revolve heavily around forming and playing in groups. Given the inherent expense of Clan technology, this would essentially divide the game between Paying Customers and the Free Players.

Nothing to stop a given player having both, to be honest. You can join either side in RO2, you can have toons on multiple sides in PS2. You just can't drop in a combined Clan-IS force because it would be derp. If you throw in your lot with a faction r.e. CW that would possibly make a difference but that's optional content anyway. And I fully expect Clan content to have it's own currency.

Artgathan, on 07 October 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

Also this oft-touted solution from TT ("make the clans bring less mechs!") fails on another point - that of the pilots. Clan Pilots are superior to IS pilots (and are equipped with targeting computers that let them hit more). This will not hold true for MW:O, unless PGI has plans to add volunteers from the game to some sort of gene-modification program.

12v10 wouldn't be anywhere near the level of outnumbering the Clans had on TT, as far as I'm aware. A two-mech deficit should account for the increased effective tonnage of Clan mechs. Pilot skill can easily be factored out, in that regard.

[Duke Blaine]

One possoble way they could balance the issue is to make the clanners follow a specific path to their battle mechs. Clan trials to gain access to more.
IS gaining clan equipment. Make the IS fix our destroyed mechs.. ie if you find a clan ppc, once you lose it... you cannot buy another. You have to find another. If you want clan ferro armor, you have so many points worth to repair until you find/aquire more.
This would make the IS come back to their own tech because you must replace the lost tech. Make modded mechs more rare as well.
Keeping all IS from going clanner... that is going to be preference. Not much can avoid it. Personally I have always fought clanners w IS stuff... tt and older mechwarrior games.
Making IS fix mechs would also curb the excess in credits and make games last a lot longer. They will need to make an eject option however so people can preserve their mechs.

Edited by Duke Blaine, 08 October 2013 - 07:07 AM.

[Nehkrosis]

making it very difficult to actually be a clanner would also be a viable way forward.
I keep saying this, but introducing some form of Dezgra/Zellbriggen system to both reward and punish players for certain play-styles will stop many people from leaving the IS tech behind.


granted Odin, that you are correct that when certain weapons (ERPPCs, PPCs, LRMs) became the only option for "metawarriors", everyone who simply wanted high K/D ratios went for them.
well, you could easily stop this kind of behavior with a clan honour system.

if PGI actually sit down and really try to work something out this game will shine for it.
and everyones happy then.

[Duke Blaine]

Another thing you could do to balance clanners would be to have them be more like a pilot.
Ie, you create a clanner pilot. This guy is like a hard core charcter from diablo. If you die in a mech you reset or make another charcacter and work your way back up the ladder through trails. Just remember, clanners are not ones to eject.... but if you do you lose reputation or possibly experiance.... lots of different routes one can go with the balance issues.

Its best to actually think of possibilities than to just complain.

[John Norad]

Combat Rating.

Based on tonnage, modified by equipment quality (when upgrades are really just upgrades with little downsides). Maybe skill tree progress. Done.
Result should be lower drop weight/lighter mechs/fewer mechs/relatively weaker mechs.
Clans are superior and should be stronger 1v1. Everything else would be silly.

(ELO is a second and different pair of shoes and should always be handled separately.)

Edited by John Norad, 08 October 2013 - 08:05 AM.

[Nehkrosis]

^^^

See guys, it is this kinda of brain-storming that saves games, and makes them interesting.
Too many times i have spoken to people who just flat out hate the clan, and think they will ruin the game.
But if we try and make them even MORE like they are in the lore, we can make things fair.

Imagine actually having to use 2-on-1 tactics to defeat a clanner, who him/herself can not expect his clannsmen to jump in and interfere.

Just picture how sweet it will actually feel to know your good, but still be able to defeat IS opponents with odds stacked in your favour.

Imagine being beaten, only for your Star Commander to disable Zellbriggen for the match, and you just barely survive.

They can give this game so much depth if they want to...

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Problem : Clan Tech is absurdly OP.

Solution : Nerf them.

Solved.

Questions?





Edit: Because some of you are morons. Whats happens when Merc's get a hold of clan tech? What happens when 12 Merc's with clan tech face up with 10 Clanners? This WILL happen, and why this is the dumbest idea of them all.

Edited by mwhighlander, 08 October 2013 - 11:36 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

mwhighlander, on 08 October 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

Problem : Clan Tech is absurdly OP.

Solution : Nerf them.

Solved.

Questions?





Edit: Because some of you are morons. Whats happens when Merc's get a hold of clan tech? What happens when 12 Merc's with clan tech face up with 10 Clanners? This WILL happen, and why this is the dumbest idea of them all.

Not if Clan tech is not available to IS players in the Mechbay... Or didn't you think of that?

[Nehkrosis]

Exactly.
Sorted.

no mixed/or random IS getting-Clan-tech-{Scrap}, until after the clan invasion.

[CyclonerM]

Mmh.. What if..

-NO cross-tech until later in the timeline.

-Clan weapons have SLIGHTLY better stats (aka more range) but give more heat and are subject to Ghost Heat or even an adjusted variant with less tolerance of Alphas.. But i'd be very careful with it.

-This added heat is MOSTLY balanced by better DHS;

-Clan Omni-mechs have fixed engine and armor stats which cannot be changed. They have at least an omni hardpoint which can mount different kind of weapons.

-Clan 'Mechs drop in 2 stars , 10 vs 12

Inner Sphere Battlemechs are far from the lore, but this makes sure there is a proper balance between BattleMechs and OmniMechs, without tweaking too much the numbers..

Edited by CyclonerM, 09 October 2013 - 07:30 AM.

[Nehkrosis]

There is a way to be faithful to lore, without wrecking the game.
people need to seriously think about it, instead of just freaking out and getting shouty.

[RogueLdr]

I understand peoples passion for the lore in this game and for wanting it to stay true; that being said you're basing many of these arguments on TT rules and cannon from books. That simpley doesn't work in online games

In lore clan pilots are better then IS pilots... in an online game that's not true. I can be a total noob at actually playing but still pilot a clan mech.
This is the reason why the often presented 8 v 12 or 10 v 12 solution won't work in PUG play. Not every person that pilots clan mechs will be better then the guy he's opposing. At that point it's simpley a numerical advantage for the other team. Better tech doesn't really compensate for stupidity.
Now lets look at what will be the heart of CW, organized team play! You take two organized teams and put one in clan tech the other in IS tech, both have a good, tactical plan... which do you think will win most of the time? If you eliminate the noob factor and assume all are good pilots, those in the better gear will win.


In cannon clan tech is better in every way, the IS didn't have a choice in the matter. They had to fight with what they had vs what was coming at them.
In the game a player gets to choose his faction, his mech, his weapons etc...
Look at it from the average gamers perspective: Gee, i can choose the IS factions and play with a mech that is inferior or i can choose a clan and play with superior tech. Hmmm hard choice!


Simple fact of the matter is if they make clan tech the way it was in lore then nobody will play IS mechs. Sure you'll have your diehard "Clans suck, IS forever!" RPers but they are a small fraction of the players.

What you'll end up with is 90% of your player base all joining clan factions because lets be honest... we play to have fun and winning is generally more fun. Why would i choose a faction that has ****** gear? As a gamer i'm going to pick the mech that gives me the best chance of winning.

Let's move this to a dif game for some perspective. Let's say that in WoW they decided to give the horde and extra 5 equipment slots and make all their weapons and spells do 20% more damage. How long do you think it would take before they're dominating ranked play and the population of the horde is 5 times that of the alliance?

In closing let me say this.
A game is balanced when two opposing players of roughly the same skill level have an equal chance of winning.
If you take two pilots of the same skill and put one in IS tech and one in a clan mech, the clan mech will win 90% of the time. That is unbalanced and no one will want to be on the short end of that stick for long.

I think that PGI painted themselves into a corner on this issue. They promised something that they didn't think through all the way.
If they change clan tech they **** off countless passionate players who supported their game.
If they don't change it they break the game they spent millions of dollars and years developing.
I think that's why they've been so quit on the matter, they're scrambling to try to figure something out before anyone catches on that they stuck their foot in their mouths.
It's probably best if we just consider this game "inspired by" the cannon instead of a recreation.

Edited by RogueLdr, 09 October 2013 - 10:46 AM.

[CyclonerM]

..That is why we are discuting solution to balance Clan Omni-Mechs so they will be not too much more powerful compared to IS BattleMechs

And i would be very disappointed if Clan factions dropped with 12 players without any bidding system which can justify that they are not divided in 2 stars.

[RogueLdr]

Hiya Cy!

I just think that anyone that clings to the lore too tightly will end up being really disappointed.
This is not a TT game, and this is not a book.
Even if it were a single player RPG they might be fine, but this is an online shooter, it has to play by different rules.
I don't see any easy way to balance it. Hopefully i'm wrong though.

Edited by RogueLdr, 09 October 2013 - 10:57 AM.

[Vyrago]

I'm expecting clan tech to be powerful, and lore-wise thats a good thing. I also don't mind a few nerfs to clan tech, or the mechs themselves. Other things you could do is to make clan tech very expensive, build in a rarity to it. You could also make pilot and mech trees for clans expensive, so that when the invasion (or introduction) of the clans happens, IS pilots and mechs will be able (barely?) to hold their own. Double or triple the XP requirements for tree abilites. Structure c-bills and XP rewards differently when fighting in clan mech or for a clan faction. Zellbrigen rewards and dishonor penalties can (fine i'll say it)....force clan players to fight 'clanlike'.

I also expect there to be a massive outcry from the community when the clans arrive. The screams of "PGI broke the game" and "MWO is dead" will be resounding through the forums for a few days. Then, after a few months of Clan tech domination, another big Inner Sphere mech pack update will be announced which will stomp the clans back to level playing field.

Edited by Vyrago, 09 October 2013 - 10:58 AM.