33 replies to this topic

[Gwydion Ward]

I know this might have the 'tone' of a rant, but its an honest question.

Based off how the game has evolved into its 'meta' of "Alpha the CT and ONLY the CT over and over again!". Why do we even still have hit-boxes for other parts of the mech's? The 'only' times i ever see any mech damaged on anything other than its CT are on Mech's such as Hunchbacks (were people aim at the Hump in order to blow off 1/2 of that mech's weapons, leaving it quite literally useless from that point on), and Catapaults when the pilot eaves his launch-flaps up.

ALL other times, the one and only part of any mech i see damaged (or have damaged in the case of my own mechs), Unless there's that Rare other pilot like me who actually aims for weapons, Is the CT. ALWAYS.

Since that seems to be the biggest 'trend'. Why waist time developing/balancing something that is almost never used by the majority of the players? It just honestly seems like to me You dev's who worked so hard on a 'hitbox' system, have practically wasted all your hard work. And that all of that effort could have been put towards balancing the weapons, mechs, or introducing new mechs.

You could take every single hitbox away, and just give all of the Mech's HP bars based of their CT numbers, and i'd bet you'd not even see 1 fluctuation in any stats as far as what mech's die, and which ones live during battles.

Just wondering what you Dev's think. Are you seeing something that im not? Are you seeing the same thing? Do you have any plans on making weapons non laser-accurate ALL of the time so that those other Hitboxes you worked on are actually used? Or would the game be better served by simply scrapping the Hitbox system, giving everything a 'hp bar', and focusing your efforts on other sides of the game?

[Threat Doc]

Ahh, hit scan. Twitchers of the world UNITE!!!

[Imperius]

They just need to double the armor on the CT so people actually hit weapons and other parts off first. Unless you're in a light mech then you'll need 10% buff to the CT after all your not a brawler you're a scout.

Edited by Imperius, 07 October 2013 - 05:10 PM.

[Lokust Davion]

without multiple hitbox this game would be like hawken. i hate hawken exactly because of its arcade-like single hitbox.

regarding CT, if ppl get cored before their side torso's are red then theyre doing it wrong. a mech pilot should always torso twist to shield his CT.

[Otto Cannon]

If you know where to get srm missiles that only hit the ct I would like some too. Also streaks, lbx, lrms...or in fact any weapons fired at a moving and twisting mech and only ever scoring ct damage.

[Gwydion Ward]

Otto Cannon, on 07 October 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

If you know where to get srm missiles that only hit the ct I would like some too. Also streaks, lbx, lrms...or in fact any weapons fired at a moving and twisting mech and only ever scoring ct damage.

Heh, i meant to mention that 'excluding' missles. Those are about the only things that isnt laser accurate, that an LBX10's. All other weapons, lasers, AC's, MG's... pretty much hit the center of your x-hair each and every time. Yea i 'know' Lasers are.. well.. laser accurate. But your in a machine that uses hydraulics and/or fiber-bundle's to move its massive weapon systems around, as well as computers to focus the lenses of those lasers. All of that together is going to add 'some' variance to your impact points, nomater HOW advanced the machines/weapons/computers are.

We simply dont have any variance at all in the game, excluding the LRM's, SRM's and LBX10's.

Lokust Davion, on 07 October 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

without multiple hitbox this game would be like hawken. i hate hawken exactly because of its arcade-like single hitbox.

regarding CT, if ppl get cored before their side torso's are red then theyre doing it wrong. a mech pilot should always torso twist to shield his CT.

It already is like Hawken in a sense. We have multiple hitboxes, but no one ever aims for anything BUT that CT hitbox.... so why even bother having the others?

Thing is.. Torso twisting only works against 1 and only one thing. LRM's, as you can time when they impact and turn just before they do. Nearly all other weapons have near instant travel times unless its a projectile class weapon fired from long range. There's no chance to 'twist' out of the way of it. And twisting in the middle of a fight does nothing but put your CT into the path of another enemy mech's weapons.. and guess what?.. Yup, HE aims for only your CT just like the other one was.

I constantly see people say "Torso twist you newb!" yet in nearly every single match i play, every single mech dies with .. yup.. CT only damage.. 'maybe', just maybe' Side Torso damage.. But again.. TORSO only damage.

[Royalewithcheese]

There are plenty of mechs you don't shoot CT on hahahaha. I can tell you for sure that my first target on a Centurion, Atlas, Highlander, or ballistic-heavy Ilya/Jager isn't always (or usually) CT.

Rhapsody Repine, on 07 October 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

I constantly see people say "Torso twist you newb!" yet in nearly every single match i play, every single mech dies with .. yup.. CT only damage.. 'maybe', just maybe' Side Torso damage.. But again.. TORSO only damage.

What do you usually pilot? Some mechs are better at shielding CT than others. Catapults, Dragons, Jenners, and Awesomes have it pretty rough, for instance.

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 07 October 2013 - 06:13 PM.

[Flying Blind]

I played some 12 man drops with my merc corps this weekend, and while some CTs did get punched through, I saw lots and lots of side torsos taken out, legs taken out, and damage spread all over. My highlander got shot all over. I even got legged on purpose once. I think you must be in a funny Elo bracket where people are starting to get good at aiming but haven't figured out defensive twisting, maneuvering, and silhouetting. Your experience does not reflect the game as a whole. We definitely have different skill level brackets that players move through as they get better. I recently dropped in a pug 4-man with 3 of my corps mates who were part of our competitive teams and had been highly successful for a long time. In other words, their Elo had to be quite high and I can tell you playing in their Elo range was an entirely different experience than mine. It was only a pug match but it felt like a mid to high level 12 man. It was super refreshing and fun but very hard. I had to work really hard in those games.

Tldr; there's plenty of reason for non-ct hit boxes, you are just dropping with at an Elo rank where these things are starting to sort out. Work hard, win a lot and you will see it change.

Edited by Flying Blind, 07 October 2013 - 06:37 PM.

[Gwydion Ward]

Flying Blind, on 07 October 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

Tldr; there's plenty of reason for non-ct hit boxes, you are just dropping with at an Elo rank where these things are starting to sort out. Work hard, win a lot and you will see it change.

Thats why i asked (near the end of the post) If they were seeing something i wasnt. As in nearly every match i play. The only Mech's with something 'other' than CT damage, are the ones i shoot at. (as i aim for arm mounted weapons and such). Ive litterally seen enemy mech's redouts who are surrounded by friendlies drop nothing 'but' thier CT.. and i mean litterally surrounded, front, side, rear... nothing on their mech lost all of its armor 'but' their CT. And ive had the same thing happen to me. 4 enemy mec's corner and surround me or manage to seperate me from the team.. ALL 4 shoot ONLY my CT. Nothing else on my mech. And almost all of my mech's have oly 20-30 armor on the legs and arms (so i can do the current 'meta' of loading the biggest weapons i can so i can out ct-core the other guy, though i still mostly aim for arms/legs) 20-30 arm/leg armor... full CT armor.. yet its always the CT that loses all of its armor + structure.. its rare for me to ever see my legs or arms go even red on armor.

[Lostdragon]

Rhapsody Repine, on 07 October 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

Thats why i asked (near the end of the post) If they were seeing something i wasnt. As in nearly every match i play. The only Mech's with something 'other' than CT damage, are the ones i shoot at. (as i aim for arm mounted weapons and such). Ive litterally seen enemy mech's redouts who are surrounded by friendlies drop nothing 'but' thier CT.. and i mean litterally surrounded, front, side, rear... nothing on their mech lost all of its armor 'but' their CT. And ive had the same thing happen to me. 4 enemy mec's corner and surround me or manage to seperate me from the team.. ALL 4 shoot ONLY my CT. Nothing else on my mech. And almost all of my mech's have oly 20-30 armor on the legs and arms (so i can do the current 'meta' of loading the biggest weapons i can so i can out ct-core the other guy, though i still mostly aim for arms/legs) 20-30 arm/leg armor... full CT armor.. yet its always the CT that loses all of its armor + structure.. its rare for me to ever see my legs or arms go even red on armor.

The configuration of a mech'***** boxes also have a lot to do with this. I play Jenners a lot, they are a walking CT. I usually take a little damage to all areas, but I typically only ever die to CT destruction due to the Jenner's CT hit box being so large and easy to hit. The mech rarely loses an arm because the arms are tiny and cannot be used for defense.

I play other mechs like a Highlander and a Cataphract without weapons in one side. I use that side's arm and ST as a shield and typically lose it before I die. I also used to play Awesomes a lot, they are basically a big CT as well and the way their hitboxes are setup what appears to be part of the arm is actually ST, making them one of the worst mechs in the game due to their barn door-like shape and huge torso hitboxes.

Other mechs like the Centurion and Raven have relatively narrow CTs. I never shoot them in the torso, I always go for the legs because the legs are easier to hit and a legged mech is seconds away from being a dead mech.

[Flying Blind]

I have been noticing in recent forum posts and on twitch streams that there really does seem to be 3 or 4 distinct levels of game play and they each are very different and have their own issues. They are almost different games sometimes. I think some of this is perspective but some of it for sure is inter-elo meta.

[Wintersdark]

Rhapsody Repine, on 07 October 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

Heh, i meant to mention that 'excluding' missles. Those are about the only things that isnt laser accurate, that an LBX10's. All other weapons, lasers, AC's, MG's... pretty much hit the center of your x-hair each and every time. Yea i 'know' Lasers are.. well.. laser accurate. But your in a machine that uses hydraulics and/or fiber-bundle's to move its massive weapon systems around, as well as computers to focus the lenses of those lasers. All of that together is going to add 'some' variance to your impact points, nomater HOW advanced the machines/weapons/computers are.

This is grossly inaccurate.

Autocannons? Different sized shells travel at different speeds. They have different ranges, and suffer bullet drop past their "optimal" range. As each has a different optimal range, they all drop differently. If you use multiple types of autocannons, unless you're in face-hugging range, the shells will never hit the same location unless your target is either motionless or staring straight at you.

Speaking of projectile speeds:

AC20 - 900m/s
AC10 - 1100m/s
AC5 - 1300m/s
AC2 - 2000m/s
PPC - 1500m/s

The AC20 in particular? Firing at a target 270m distant, you're still getting a 300ms travel time, nearly a third of a second. That requires leading targets. Firing one alongside a laser? One hits, or the other does, but not both.

These sound fast, but ask a player who plays with 300ms lag how easy it is to reliably hit someone.

Quote

Thing is.. Torso twisting only works against 1 and only one thing. LRM's, as you can time when they impact and turn just before they do. Nearly all other weapons have near instant travel times unless its a projectile class weapon fired from long range. There's no chance to 'twist' out of the way of it. And twisting in the middle of a fight does nothing but put your CT into the path of another enemy mech's weapons.. and guess what?.. Yup, HE aims for only your CT just like the other one was.

I constantly see people say "Torso twist you newb!" yet in nearly every single match i play, every single mech dies with .. yup.. CT only damage.. 'maybe', just maybe' Side Torso damage.. But again.. TORSO only damage.

This is also objectively wrong, in two different ways.

First, lasers? 1 second burn time, twisting at all will spread that damage between multiple sections. Lasers are very common weapons, and the only hit-scan weapons. Everything else has travel time, and it's decidedly non-instant. Well, except machine guns. They're technically hitscan weapons, projectile speed is irrelevant there. But they're silly weapons that don't really impact this discussion much.

But second, and most important, you misunderstand how torso twisting works. You don't wait to see incoming fire then twist. That's foolish: Reaction time, lag, twist speed; they all work against you. You need, instead, to employ defensive piloting:

• You stay in constant motion while under fire (or potentially under fire). Both your legs, and your torso - be moving, be twisting and looking around, all the time. Make it hard to line up a shot on you.
  
• Always move laterally to your targets. Even if you want to approach someone, do it at an angle. Never, ever, EVER run directly at someone pointing weapons at you.
  
• For gods sake, don't ever, EVER stop when under fire. Not ever. Try to never stand still for any protracted time even if you think you're safe. I can't begin to tell you how many headshot kills I've got from people standing still, thinking they are safe.
  
• When your weapons are cooling down, twist. Don't stare at your target after firing trying to maximize DPS output, turn away from them. Give them your arms; and if you're in a mech able to do so tilt your arms up to further protect your torso (Atlas's are very good at this)
  
• Vary your speed, vary your vector. How much depends of course on how much of a hurry you're in, but if you're running perpendicular to a foe and he's firing at you, alter your speed a bit. Slow down momentarily, speed up again, and/or zigzag. You don't need to make dramatic changes, even minor ones work. These changes make it impossible to accurately "lead" you (see ballistics travel times above). But, as above says: Don't stop. Just don't travel at a constant speed and direction when under fire.
  
• If you have a shield arm/side, USE IT. Centurion? Highlander? There's lots of mechs where the majority of the firepower is concentrated on one side. If you're in one of those, present your off side to enemies whenever you're not firing, as every shot into that side is essentially wasted.

When you do these things, there's simply no way to put a lot of damage in a single location.

The very best an opponent can do is hold their fire till you turn to face them and fire at them. Good opponents will do that, of course, but then the ball is in your court. You're maximizing your DPS, while forcing them to hold their fire.


What you're seeing is largely new(ish) player Elo. What you describe practically never happens once players are skilled.

[Truesight]

I have to agree and disagree. Some Mechs really have like magnetic CTs, others are far more ST heavy. An Atlas almost never gets cored before 1 or 2 of its side Torsos is destroyed. Orions and Awesomes for example... thats another story.

Smaller Mechs (60 tons and less) do not have that much armor to play with and/or are really fast, so they get shot at and their biggest hitbox is taking the most dmg, even Centurions get cored in seconds if they walk straight at the enemy.

Yes i call 60 tons and less small mechs, because they are not the majority on the battlefield. Most players choose heavy and assault mechs, another thing that should be changed somehow.

[Bilbo]

I routinely end matches as a stripper pole. If I die and am not at least almost a stripper pole, I feel I've done it wrong. The other hitboxes can allow you to take massive amounts of damage before going down if you are willing to use them.

[Mister Blastman]

OP: No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!



What we actually need is... more hitboxes. Instead of 3 for the torsos... we need 9... or 18. If you don't like it, go play CoD.

[JayVrb]

legs are tasty NOM NOM NOM

[Xanquil]

This is one of those things I don't want to see. Having different locations is a staple of the MechWarrior/battletech universe. The unfortunate fact is the BattleTech armor system does not work with Pinpoint weapons.
It is interesting to see which will go away. Because as it stands one has to if this game is going to become better.
I'm betting on the pinpoint accuracy; do to the fact that it is causing weapon balance issues in addition to issues with how mechs take damage (armor), and heat issues (ghost heat).

As for the "if you only take damage to you CT you are doing it wrong" group, even with constant torso twisting and dodging coring is way too common at all levels of play. The type of mech you pilot can make getting cored more/less of an issue, but it is still an issue.

[Krivvan]

We aim for legs.



Certain mechs like the Jager have vulnerable side torsos. Sometimes they properly shield damage and you go for a damaged component. The very popular Highlander-733C build is vulnerable in its right torso and arm. You're supposed to go for the Atlas' right torso if you can't survive to kill its CT. Etc.

[Hexenhammer]

Every mech has a weakness... Expect the Urbanmech.

[Bagheera]

Bro, do you even hitbox?

(couldn't resist)

Edited by Bagheera, 08 October 2013 - 09:28 PM.