696 replies to this topic

[dangerzone]

Well, first off, the issue here is this sense of entitlement amongst all founders. When they showed the design pillars they were not promises. In fact, the word promise was never even mentioned. Design pillars is the same thing as making an outline for a paper. It is a general guideline to which you write your paper, yet as those of us who have made outlines and papers, things usually change or are edited. When I saw those design pillars back in spring 2012....I knew there was no way they could adhere to all of them; they were too strict. I still donated for Veteran, and after a month of playing, upgraded to Legendary.

Everyone has this thing in their head that the words "design pillars" translates to "promise". Sure, things changed, but they changed it because their new players needed a way to learn leg-torso movement (3pv was fixed later one to lower the camera angle to better show the legs) and I highly doubt PGI at the time of making those design pillars knew that a year from making those, things would be different. Just like when we make a paper outline, we don't think "Oh, this is going to be changed".

Self-entitlement is the most annoying thing about humanity. We all think we deserve something. In reality, we really don't. I want a nice car...a nice house....too bad. I will work my *** off for those things. When we all paid into the founders program we were not buying a say into the development of the company like so many people think they did....we paid into supporting the devs making the game.

If you guys can't accept that fact and deny that....then I truly feel sorry for all of you.

[Silent]

The only thing you are entitled to is a crappy half-baked game. - PGI

[hoverstorm]

A half baked game that PGI actually think is of "launch/released" quality.

[dangerzone]

You know....even after the new UI, dx11, HPG Manifold, the Springtime Light Hero, Clans and CW all come into the game, you're all still going to find something to moan about. It's what you all do best, right?

Just like the guy on the forums here who felt self-entitled to new content because he paid for 6 months of content in advance and got it all at once (Overlord) and now will not have anything new and felt ripped off. Yes. That topic was actually made.

As stated before, self-entitlement ****** me off. PGI did not have to give you premium time, or free mechs, or other cool stuff let alone a name in the credits for buying into founders. They could have just taken your money and not given you jack. Heck, I can't even think of a company that puts their founders' names in the credits. That is pretty damn nice of them to do all that if you ask me.

Go ahead. Call me a white-knight. You're just in denial. Design pillar != promises.

Edited by dangerzone, 25 November 2013 - 07:14 PM.

[aniviron]

dangerzone, on 25 November 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

This is all true, but if you keep harshing a company based on things they did in the past, and applying that to things they have not even released, then you are already condemning any effort they try to make. Sure, they screw up a lot, but at least they still try. They could easily just shut down the servers, not tell anyone why, and abandon the game....if that is what you want.

Assuming, it is not what you want, as well as countless mechwarriors who would say the same, we might as well buckle up for the ride, and hope for the best until this game one day (if it ever does) shut down for good.

Also, as for the holiday bit, I meant as in making Clans, CW and UI 2.0. As for the Video CDU, it is not a simple, point a camera at someone talking and record them. Chances are they are going to make it into something nice. IF it was as simple as point-and-shoot filming, we'd have a November Video CDU by now, would we not?

Your attitude of "well they could just shut down the servers!" belies the fact that PGI are a company who are out to make a profit. They're not keeping things going out of the goodness of their hearts; there's a reason that a hero mech can cost upwards of $40. And given that this is a service that most people are paying for, it's hardly unreasonable for people to be upset that content which was supposed to be here over a year ago has still not been added to the game. Many who have invested their time and money did so with the expectation that the things the devs said would be added would be actually appear in the game; we were hoping for more than glorified deathmatch.

Given that it was their decision to move to a video format and not ours, they still have only themselves to blame. If the video takes so long to make and produce that it's the reason the CDU is 25 days late and counting, maybe they should stick to a text format? I mean, text is nice anyway, since I can read that anywhere and don't have to wade through filler and take notes.

[Tekadept]

dangerzone, on 25 November 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

Heck, I can't even think of a company that puts their founders' names in the credits.

Are you serious?

[dangerzone]

aniviron, on 25 November 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

Your attitude of "well they could just shut down the servers!" belies the fact that PGI are a company who are out to make a profit. They're not keeping things going out of the goodness of their hearts; there's a reason that a hero mech can cost upwards of $40. And given that this is a service that most people are paying for, it's hardly unreasonable for people to be upset that content which was supposed to be here over a year ago has still not been added to the game. Many who have invested their time and money did so with the expectation that the things the devs said would be added would be actually appear in the game; we were hoping for more than glorified deathmatch.

Given that it was their decision to move to a video format and not ours, they still have only themselves to blame. If the video takes so long to make and produce that it's the reason the CDU is 25 days late and counting, maybe they should stick to a text format? I mean, text is nice anyway, since I can read that anywhere and don't have to wade through filler and take notes.

Two things.
1: Hero mechs are 75MC per ton. PGI said this before the first hero mech was ever released. Don't believe me? Do some math.

2: I'd rather wait a year for CW and have it less buggy and more full of content then get it one year early and deal with game breaking bugs, glitches, and failures due to rushed coding. I mean....if you wanna spend all day reporting bugs, go for it man.

I can see your point on a video CDU. I too am curious to see if they actually got something nice out of 25+ days of making a video format. They just are not releasing one this month since both tues. patches are in. I do not claim PGI has no faults. I am just willing to support them and I WILL tell them where they screw up. I report bugs to support. I report players who teamkill and break the rules. I buy some MC from time to time. I will support this game until it stops being fun to me, and right now is not that time.

Tekadept, on 25 November 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

[/size]
Are you serious?

I apologize for not having a vast knowledge of gaming developers and their rewards for their founders/backers. Can we be friends now?

[Texas Merc]

dangerzone, on 25 November 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

Two things.
1: Hero mechs are 75MC per ton. PGI said this before the first hero mech was ever released. Don't believe me? Do some math.

2: I'd rather wait a year for CW and have it less buggy and more full of content then get it one year early and deal with game breaking bugs, glitches, and failures due to rushed coding. I mean....if you wanna spend all day reporting bugs, go for it man.

I can see your point on a video CDU. I too am curious to see if they actually got something nice out of 25+ days of making a video format. They just are not releasing one this month since both tues. patches are in. I do not claim PGI has no faults. I am just willing to support them and I WILL tell them where they screw up. I report bugs to support. I report players who teamkill and break the rules. I buy some MC from time to time. I will support this game until it stops being fun to me, and right now is not that time.



I apologize for not having a vast knowledge of gaming developers and their rewards for their founders/backers. Can we be friends now?

{redacted}

[Silent]

dangerzone will own a new house and a new car before he ever gets to play with the new UI, CW, Clans, or DX11

[aniviron]

dangerzone, on 25 November 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

Two things.
1: Hero mechs are 75MC per ton. PGI said this before the first hero mech was ever released. Don't believe me? Do some math.

2: I'd rather wait a year for CW and have it less buggy and more full of content then get it one year early and deal with game breaking bugs, glitches, and failures due to rushed coding. I mean....if you wanna spend all day reporting bugs, go for it man.

I can see your point on a video CDU. I too am curious to see if they actually got something nice out of 25+ days of making a video format. They just are not releasing one this month since both tues. patches are in. I do not claim PGI has no faults. I am just willing to support them and I WILL tell them where they screw up. I report bugs to support. I report players who teamkill and break the rules. I buy some MC from time to time. I will support this game until it stops being fun to me, and right now is not that time.

Of course I believe you. I'm not disputing that at all. My point is that this game's content is very expensive compared to most free-to-play titles; and that generally, paying customers expect content. If you want to be pedantic, yes, all you're paying for the the mech, and PGI owes you nothing. The implicit terms, however, are that the buyer supports the game because it's something they deem worthwhile, and a lot of what has generated support for people spending money on the game has been promises of content that has never materialized.

I too hope that when CW launches it has content and isn't buggy, and yes, I too report bugs, have bought MC, and am fairly active helping to answer new player questions on the forums. But the thing is, they never once said "we will launch CW phase 1 in December 2012, but it will be buggy and awful," they said, "we will launch CW phase 1 in December 2012." Given that it's just shy of a year since then, if they've been doing nothing but bugtesting since that time, there sure as hell better not be a single damn bug in the release. Of course, I can almost guarantee you that isn't going to happen; there will be major issues. I can tell, because every new major feature release this game has had has come with major issues. I think what has actually happened is that CW wasn't started until far too late, and PGI didn't plan out what needed to be done ahead of time well at all.

That is, of course, just speculation on my part. It's hard to say without having word from PGI, since they have thus far refused to share any specifics with us about CW at all except to say that it requires UI2. Which brings us nicely full-circle on this thread: if they would actually bother to communicate with us, to tell us why things are going so badly for them, maybe people would be a little more lenient. But since they can't even bother to do that, we have to assume that it's neglect or incompetence instead of tragic misfortune.

[dangerzone]

Silent, on 25 November 2013 - 07:28 PM, said:

dangerzone will own a new house and a new car before he ever gets to play with the new UI, CW, Clans, or DX11

Actually I already got the new car. A new house would be nice though. Now...if I can have a timberwolf INSIDE my house...oh man....

[dangerzone]

aniviron, on 25 November 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

Of course I believe you. I'm not disputing that at all. My point is that this game's content is very expensive compared to most free-to-play titles; and that generally, paying customers expect content. If you want to be pedantic, yes, all you're paying for the the mech, and PGI owes you nothing. The implicit terms, however, are that the buyer supports the game because it's something they deem worthwhile, and a lot of what has generated support for people spending money on the game has been promises of content that has never materialized.

I too hope that when CW launches it has content and isn't buggy, and yes, I too report bugs, have bought MC, and am fairly active helping to answer new player questions on the forums. But the thing is, they never once said "we will launch CW phase 1 in December 2012, but it will be buggy and awful," they said, "we will launch CW phase 1 in December 2012." Given that it's just shy of a year since then, if they've been doing nothing but bugtesting since that time, there sure as hell better not be a single damn bug in the release. Of course, I can almost guarantee you that isn't going to happen; there will be major issues. I can tell, because every new major feature release this game has had has come with major issues. I think what has actually happened is that CW wasn't started until far too late, and PGI didn't plan out what needed to be done ahead of time well at all.

That is, of course, just speculation on my part. It's hard to say without having word from PGI, since they have thus far refused to share any specifics with us about CW at all except to say that it requires UI2. Which brings us nicely full-circle on this thread: if they would actually bother to communicate with us, to tell us why things are going so badly for them, maybe people would be a little more lenient. But since they can't even bother to do that, we have to assume that it's neglect or incompetence instead of tragic misfortune.

I like you already. You're the first guy here to respond to me in a calm, civil manner. Just as you and everyone else, I too wish to express my opinions. Sadly, I too feel CW will have some bugs in it. It's just the nature of the beast.

My theory is that PGI does not wish to tell us much about CW because if they tell us something that will be in it and people like it, but then change it a bit to in their minds be better, people will throw a fit over it. Either that or IGP wants them keeping a tight lid on it all. Those are just my theories though

[Jetfire]

I do not feel entitled to anything for my money and I know they could shutoff the servers and walk away any day they choose.

However I do feel entitled to the money I earn and I choose to spend it on things I enjoy in proportion to my enjoyment.

I have said what I have said in the past as an indication to PGI how I feel about their product to give them the opportunity to respond. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. If you cannot please your customer base at large though, they will not give you money.

I would like to see them do much better as it would be to the benefit of all. Whether or not they are capable of that is up for debate. The white knights and doomsayers are living in the future, I bought the Phoenix pack because it was a good deal today. Keep em coming PGI and not just mech chassis's.

[dangerzone]

Jetfire, on 25 November 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

I do not feel entitled to anything for my money and I know they could shutoff the servers and walk away any day they choose.

However I do feel entitled to the money I earn and I choose to spend it on things I enjoy in proportion to my enjoyment.

I have said what I have said in the past as an indication to PGI how I feel about their product to give them the opportunity to respond. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. If you cannot please your customer base at large though, they will not give you money.

I would like to see them do much better as it would be to the benefit of all. Whether or not they are capable of that is up for debate. The white knights and doomsayers are living in the future, I bought the Phoenix pack because it was a good deal today. Keep em coming PGI and not just mech chassis's.

This. Couldn't have said it better myself

[Scromboid]

Isn't it almost december?

[dangerzone]

Scromboid, on 25 November 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

Isn't it almost december?

Indeed. Usually between the 4th and 8th of the month, a CDU or something will come out.

[Jakob Knight]

dangerzone, on 25 November 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

Well, first off, the issue here is this sense of entitlement amongst all founders. When they showed the design pillars they were not promises. In fact, the word promise was never even mentioned. Design pillars is the same thing as making an outline for a paper. It is a general guideline to which you write your paper, yet as those of us who have made outlines and papers, things usually change or are edited. When I saw those design pillars back in spring 2012....I knew there was no way they could adhere to all of them; they were too strict. I still donated for Veteran, and after a month of playing, upgraded to Legendary.

Everyone has this thing in their head that the words "design pillars" translates to "promise". Sure, things changed, but they changed it because their new players needed a way to learn leg-torso movement (3pv was fixed later one to lower the camera angle to better show the legs) and I highly doubt PGI at the time of making those design pillars knew that a year from making those, things would be different. Just like when we make a paper outline, we don't think "Oh, this is going to be changed".

Self-entitlement is the most annoying thing about humanity. We all think we deserve something. In reality, we really don't. I want a nice car...a nice house....too bad. I will work my *** off for those things. When we all paid into the founders program we were not buying a say into the development of the company like so many people think they did....we paid into supporting the devs making the game.

If you guys can't accept that fact and deny that....then I truly feel sorry for all of you.

Hmm. Well, design -pillars- are called that because they are the core values/concepts upon which the project you are working on will stand or fall upon. Those aren't necessarily promises, but stating what your pillars are and then discarding them at a later time is basically knocking out the foundations upon which you promoted your project. That is generally not something to be viewed as good design practice, and undermines both confidence and the concept that the project would remain focused upon it's goal, as well as rather blatantly demonstrating that the project is no longer solvent.

Also, the long track record of the Devs in issuing misleading statements and disregarding design feedback reached the final point when they did, indeed, blatantly and admittedly break an important promise to the playerbase. That, and also make completely false statements to same playerbase. In doing so, they evidenced no remorse at doing so (only in not informing the playerbase they intended to do so in time to excuse themselves) or even comprehension that such conduct was of any importance whatsoever. I refer, of course, to the 3PV implementation. All of this is documented and a matter of fact, not opinion, and certainly not an issue of entitlement unless one holds to the concept that one is not entitled to having promises made kept or restitution made in good faith.

Regardless, the issue here is not about the core pillars of the game, or the sense of entitlement. It is that the Devs have, once again, failed to maintain communication with their playerbase and seem again to be discarding the Forums in favor of social media used by teenagers to provide information that should, by rights, be presented here. Based on their past record, this is more than just a late report, but a clear indication that communication is being diverted from the playerbase (the Forums) to non-players (Facebook, Twitter, ect.), and that action is in contradiction to the tone set by the 'apology' issued the last time the company was forced to admit communication had failed (regardless of the fact that it was the wrong issue to apologize for).

Edited by Jakob Knight, 25 November 2013 - 07:45 PM.

[dangerzone]

Jakob Knight, on 25 November 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

Hmm. Well, design -pillars- are called that because they are the core values/concepts upon which the project you are working on will stand or fall upon. Those aren't necessarily promises, but stating what your pillars are and then discarding them at a later time is basically knocking out the foundations upon which you promoted your project. That is generally not something to be viewed as good design practice, and undermines both confidence and the concept that the project would remain focused upon it's goal, as well as rather blatantly demonstrating that the project is no longer solvent.

Also, the long track record of the Devs in issuing misleading statements and disregarding design feedback reached the final point when they did, indeed, blatantly and admittedly break an important promise to the playerbase. That, and also make completely false statements to same playerbase. In doing so, they evidenced no remorse at doing so (only in not informing the playerbase they intended to do so in time to excuse themselves) or even comprehension that such conduct was of any importance whatsoever. I refer, of course, to the 3PV implementation. All of this is documented and a matter of fact, not opinion, and certainly not an issue of entitlement unless one holds to the concept that one is not entitled to having promises made kept or restitution made in good faith.

Regardless, the issue here is not about the core pillars of the game, or the sense of entitlement. It is that the Devs have, once again, failed to maintain communication with their playerbase and seem again to be discarding the Forums in favor of social media used by teenagers to provide information that should, by rights, be presented here. Based on their past record, this is more than just a late report, but a clear indication that communication is being diverted from the playerbase (the Forums) to non-players (Facebook, Twitter, ect.), and that action is in contradiction to the tone set by the 'apology' issued the last time the company was forced to admit communication had failed (regardless of the fact that it was the wrong issue to apologize for).

Exactly. I never said that them not sticking with their design pillars was a good thing. Just that it wasn't really promises as you said. If it even were a promise, it would be a promise to themselves.

For what you said about the communication...also true. Their communication has sucked this past year and throwing Garth under the bus for their "apology" for lack of comms with 3PV, was downright haenus. However, someone asked them in the AtD 49 or 50 if russ and bryans' twitter feeds could be visible on the website, and bryan responded he'll bug (name). (I'm assuming this person manages the website). If that were to happen, then there would not be an issue.

Like I've been saying, a lot of you are indeed spot on with your views and I've never said anyone is right or wrong as many people tend to do and we are all mostly having a civil debate here, which is good. PGI keeps claiming everything will fall together around UI2.0. Let's just hope this really is the truth....

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Bryan was not online on forums for 1 month.Are you sure he is back from vacation?

[dangerzone]

JudgeDeathCZ, on 25 November 2013 - 07:56 PM, said:

Bryan was not online on forums for 1 month.Are you sure he is back from vacation?

I will check the ComStar issued tracking device that was implanted in his skull. One moment please.

....

Aaaaaaaand it's broken. I need some wobbie tech in here! Sorry guys. I do not know where Bryan is now :/