427 replies to this topic

[Sir Wulfrick]

If and when we get community warfare I can see supply & demand being very helpful in emphasizing fairly standard medium mechs. Your merc unit (or line regiment for that matter) lost a pile of chassis? OK, in the next supply run we can offer you 5 x Hunchbacks, a couple of Kintaros and possibly a Shadow Hawk. Want that specialist raven with all those rare electronic warfare packages, or that monster Atlas? Well OK, but you'll have to wait a few weeks for either and we only have 2 available.

This would quickly emphasize medium mechs and would sort-of be canon based. The major disadvantage of course would be that there would be endless complaining about pilots not being able to use their favourite mechs which, given that this is at the end of the day a game, a valid issue.

The more I think about the lack of medoum mechs problem, and also the level of misunderstanding and resentment that we occaionally have between assault & light pilots, the more I think that introducing proper role warfare would answer many questions and improve the game in many ways. Unfortunately, as we only currently have what are team deathmatch modes (with minor quirks) there really is little opportunity for different roles.

Mission-based matches and even larger maps (yes, really - if you want to promote actual scouting) would I think go some way towards improving the situation.

Edited by Sir Wulfrick, 09 October 2013 - 04:18 PM.

[OznerpaG]

seeing quotes like

RandomLurker, on 09 October 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

...
Hunchback: RT will be gone in seconds
...

is a reminder that predictability is a liability all mech classes have in the game. let mediums put their weapons where they want and they can have that 1 advantage that other classes don't have, and no medium has an obvious target to nuke first

[Artgathan]

Tonnage limits don't stop medium mechs from being garbage, they just force us to put more garbage on the field (or downgrade a few more mechs to lights so we can max out on Heavy/Assaults).

[Nubsternator]

Lefty Lucy, on 09 October 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Nope. People will just take more lights.

At least I won't die (or take massive damage) fromo a PPC or AC10/20 shot all the time then. At least I'll be fighting guys MY OWN SIZE rather then trying to duke it out with everything 2-3 times my size. At least the playing field will be even and I might enjoy the game then.

[Vassago Rain]

Nubsternator, on 09 October 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

At least I won't die (or take massive damage) fromo a PPC or AC10/20 shot all the time then. At least I'll be fighting guys MY OWN SIZE rather then trying to duke it out with everything 2-3 times my size. At least the playing field will be even and I might enjoy the game then.

You are aware that the standard jenner has a 35 damage blow, yes?

[Kahoumono]

Mediums are largely useless because they are the lightest chassis you can hit predictably. Given how the game is all about high damage alphas due to perfect weapons convergence they are the least survivable class because they can neither dish it or evade. What is the point of piloting a chassis which can barely fight off lights and is fodder for the other classes? Match rewards will have little impact as will resizing the mechs because it doesn't fix the root of the problem with regards to pinpoint damage. Match weight limits will also most likely change the chassis composition to more heavies and lights. Even if devs managed to steer more players towards using mediums you'd get everyone using the most boat-able mechs.

[Nubsternator]

Vassago Rain, on 09 October 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

You are aware that the standard jenner has a 35 damage blow, yes?

That would be impressive it didn't spread to everything around what I'm aiming at for that second of beam. If I had perfect aim running at 138 kph around an assault mech and his arm didn't get in the way of his torso, then this wouldn't be an issue.

Edited by Nubsternator, 09 October 2013 - 06:20 PM.

[Erebus Alpha]

Globally reduce and rebalance maximum armor values, as follows:

Light: Apx. 20-25 HP per body part, low 30's for CT
Medium: Apx. 30-35 HP per body part, low 40's for CT
Heavy: Apx. 40-45 HP per body part, low 50's for CT
Assault: Apx. 50-55 HP per body part, low 60's for CT

Let's also globally rescale the physical size of the models and the appropriate hitboxes. Let's use the Centurion and Stalker as examples:

Centurion weighs 50 tons, stalker weighs 80. This means the stalker is 62.5% heavier than the Centurion. Its hitboxes should reflect this, being approximately 62.5% larger. If the centurion is 20 meters tall and 15 meters wide, the stalker needs to be approximately 32.5 meters tall and 24.4 meters wide. To make things interesting, we make the Stalker a little shorter and wider in proportion to the Centurion, so maybe it's 30 meters tall and 26 meters wide.

As for maneuverability rebalancing, a picture is worth a thousand words, and 30 frames per second is equivelent to 30,000 words:



Pay attention to 2:47. Turn of EPIC WIN. And check out how quickly that 35 ton mech goes from dead stop to full sprint. It just illustrates how utterly slow and lethargic every part of MWO is.

  There is no reason Mediums shouldn't occupy that sweet spot between agile ninja and front-line berserk facemelter.

Edited by ABFalcon, 09 October 2013 - 06:30 PM.

[Huntrava]

Heavy > Light > Medium ...because PGI emphasizes the kill death ratio (KDR) the same way every other FPS game does. By making the KDR a focal point of the game, people spend more time blowing each other up than actually achieving their objectives.

Sound familiar? How many matches have you seen every mech brawling in the middle of the map, while a single light is surreptitiously capturing objectives? My point exactly.

The viability of a medium mech is based on its versatility. MWO is about as dynamic as a bag of hammers, so there's really no need for mediums.

[aniviron]

Lefty Lucy, on 09 October 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

I guess the natural question that arises is: why is it important to the game that more players play medium mechs?

Just going to throw out two quick good reasons why.

1. You know how everyone complains that time-to-kill in this game is waaaaay too short, that you get cored through and killed within seconds of peeking over a ridgeline? A lot of that is symptomatic of the fact that 2/3 of the players are running heavies or assaults, and with that much weapon tonnage on the field, time-to-kill is always going to be woefully short unless you want the guns to hit like wet noodles.

2. It encourages more tactically diverse play. With more relatively quick mechs on the field, there is suddenly more of a reason to defend all your assets instead of being forced to stick 12 players into one grid quadrant and hunkering down for the slugging match against the other team doing the same thing. If the other team doesn't have the firepower to instantly wipe your team out the moment they push and you're not ready (related to point 1) then you can afford to send other mechs out to do things like capture points. And if both teams are sending out mechs to cap, this encourages both teams to protect their own assets and spread out and secure points, opening up more opportunities for the game to be something more than "okay guys see you in the middle for a fistfight."

[Mister Blastman]

Ghogiel, on 09 October 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

There isn't a way to make mediums really as powerful as either lights or heavier mechs without <Insert artificial balancing mechanic here>

Extra modules, higher engine caps, etc.

Higher engine caps would be a start.

I fear they need more than that, even, though. Back in closed-beta, getting a medium over 97 or 98 KPH was the magic number. You turned into a super-ninja at that point.

But, back in closed-beta, we didn't have high pinpoint-alpha damage like we do now. Everyone used lasers and SRMs. Sometimes you'd see an AC/20 or AC/10 but, frankly, they were borked in the projectile mechanics which made them spotty.

So, you could run around like a ninja, laughing off lasers by twisting the damage around and moving in and out of SRM range at your liesure. I remember the great days of running my Hunchback 4SP. Ohhhhh how I loved that mech before they nerfed the engine cap. It was easily one of my favorite mechs of all-time... then. I could maintain a 11-1+ KDR in it without breaking a sweat in PUG matches.

But then things went downhill. First the engine-nerf which killed the XL-laden hunch. Then the ballistics fix. Then the PPC fix. Then the SRM mega nerf. Then the PPC buff.

The rest is history. Pinpoint, high-alpha, low exposure damage nuked the medium mechs. They now must remain exposed to fire their weapons with little armor and insufficient speed. It is a death-sentence against larger mechs that are boating PPCs/ACs/Gauss.

Still, I run mediums to this day. You just have to be cunning with them. Mess up, though, and you die in one or two shots. Well, at least in the high ELO brackets where people run mostly assaults/heavies with high-alpha builds.

So these days it'll take a lot more than buffing engine caps to fix the problem. Pinpoint damage is still a very real problem and it alone takes down mediums faster than anything else. I think they need to start there, trying to reduce it somehow--then perhaps putting penalties on the larger mechs. Or buffing SRM damage back to 2.5 and tightening the spread dramatically back to where it used to be (and perhaps putting some splash damage back in). SRMs really helped the mediums compete. Now they are still a joke despite the damage increase.

That... or just put a weight cap in as a band-aid.

It is a very complicated problem at this point that isn't simple to solve.

[Dymlos2003]

I main mediums and I usually put out 400+ dmg with each. Sure there are flaws but don't blame sucking on the Mech when it's the pilot that's garbage

[YueFei]

I think mostly the maps just need to be larger and less restrictive. If American Football had a field that was only 30 feet wide, instead of 160 feet wide. You wouldn't see the faster, more agile players get used on the field... there simply would not be enough room for them to take advantage of their speed. The field would be crammed with NFL Linemen type of bodies. I think that is a big part of what afflicts MWO balance. There need to be multiple objectives across a wider field of engagement, so that fast-movers can legitimately threaten, in the same way that multiple fast-moving eligible receivers on an NFL offense threaten and stretch defenses who must account for and cover them with their own fast-movers.

[aniviron]

Mister Blastman, on 09 October 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

Higher engine caps would be a start.

I fear they need more than that, even, though. Back in closed-beta, getting a medium over 97 or 98 KPH was the magic number. You turned into a super-ninja at that point.

But, back in closed-beta, we didn't have high pinpoint-alpha damage like we do now. Everyone used lasers and SRMs. Sometimes you'd see an AC/20 or AC/10 but, frankly, they were borked in the projectile mechanics which made them spotty.

So, you could run around like a ninja, laughing off lasers by twisting the damage around and moving in and out of SRM range at your liesure. I remember the great days of running my Hunchback 4SP. Ohhhhh how I loved that mech before they nerfed the engine cap. It was easily one of my favorite mechs of all-time... then. I could maintain a 11-1+ KDR in it without breaking a sweat in PUG matches.

But then things went downhill. First the engine-nerf which killed the XL-laden hunch. Then the ballistics fix. Then the PPC fix. Then the SRM mega nerf. Then the PPC buff.

The rest is history. Pinpoint, high-alpha, low exposure damage nuked the medium mechs. They now must remain exposed to fire their weapons with little armor and insufficient speed. It is a death-sentence against larger mechs that are boating PPCs/ACs/Gauss.

Still, I run mediums to this day. You just have to be cunning with them. Mess up, though, and you die in one or two shots. Well, at least in the high ELO brackets where people run mostly assaults/heavies with high-alpha builds.

So these days it'll take a lot more than buffing engine caps to fix the problem. Pinpoint damage is still a very real problem and it alone takes down mediums faster than anything else. I think they need to start there, trying to reduce it somehow--then perhaps putting penalties on the larger mechs. Or buffing SRM damage back to 2.5 and tightening the spread dramatically back to where it used to be (and perhaps putting some splash damage back in). SRMs really helped the mediums compete. Now they are still a joke despite the damage increase.

That... or just put a weight cap in as a band-aid.

It is a very complicated problem at this point that isn't simple to solve.

Engine buff will solve nothing. The reason the 130kph slaser swayback was so spoooooky in CB was because all the long range weapons sucked, largely because hit detection. This is no longer the case, and has not been for about 10 months.

Here's the problem with mediums with large engines: they have no guns. Not only do they have no guns, but they have to run big XL engines, because standard engines are heaaaaavy. And all the mediums except the cicada, blackjack, and maybe hunchback are laughably oversized. You know why nobody runs an XL in a cent? It's a deathtrap. You're huge AND have no guns? Free kills! At this point increasing engine cap further won't help, most mediums are already as fast as they can be while still being useful.

What mediums need is a size scale adjustment. Maybe something else too, but making them smaller or at least only as big as mechs 25 tons heavier than them would be a good start.

[Deathlike]

Vassago Rain, on 09 October 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

You are aware that the standard jenner has a 35 damage blow, yes?

I was pretty sure it was 30. Jenner-D with 4 meds+2SSRM2, or the Jenner-F with 6 meds.

aniviron, on 09 October 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:

Here's the problem with mediums with large engines: they have no guns. Not only do they have no guns, but they have to run big XL engines, because standard engines are heaaaaavy. And all the mediums except the cicada, blackjack, and maybe hunchback are laughably oversized. You know why nobody runs an XL in a cent? It's a deathtrap. You're huge AND have no guns? Free kills! At this point increasing engine cap further won't help, most mediums are already as fast as they can be while still being useful.

XL engines in a Cent aren't really a deathtrap (well, assuming this is not on an A or AL). I ran a Cent-D just fine with a 360XL. Hard to leg something that moves fast. Many Wang pilots run fine in them (although, it does make them rather squishy if they have to protect their right arms too much by overcompensating).

Going with faster engines would be optimal for many of the mediums... even lifting the cap across the board for 50 tonners from 275 to 300 (forCents or Hunchies) or 325 and 325 to 350 on the Trebuchet would allow for more options... except it would bring a lot more light into the state of the weak excuse of small laser and small pulse lasers.

Edited by Deathlike, 09 October 2013 - 08:48 PM.

[FupDup]

aniviron, on 09 October 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:

...And all the mediums except the cicada, blackjack, and maybe hunchback are laughably oversized....

I'd say that the Cicada is too big in comparison to the Jenner (which is the baseline for light mechs, and the Cicada is a giant light). The BJ is actually fairly close to the size of the Jagermech, and so is the Hunchie.

Edited by FupDup, 09 October 2013 - 08:55 PM.

[Johnny Reb]

Cathy, on 09 October 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

fit bigger engines make them faster, my quick draws are either as fast or faster than my mediums except the cicada, a c-bill buff...targets in the game that don't rely on pure damage output.

There isn't really alot of difference between a QD and a 50-55 tonne medium, going up against a QD dragon Cat or orion in a big medium, doesn't bother me to much, balisitc jeager/phracts, is another matter though.

Mostly its just the way people think, thats a mediums big problem

I agree with this somewhat, now the only mediums (minus cicada) that can even try to match light speeds are the cent-d and treb 3c, with both capping at 139kph with a xl 390 engine. With the incoming speed boost for lights to go up to 170kph, these two mechs are lost in that department. If scale is not changed with the mediums at least they should be able to go 106kph, for the slow ones, hunch, cents (minus the D), with a slight bump up for each one after in the form of engine limits. It won't help the cent-D or treb 3c as an xl390 max is already making them medium lights. However could help with all the other lower engine capped mediums, the two aforementioned, BJ, Kintaro, trebs and new phonex mediums . Say a BJ 1x at 130ish top speed? It would also indirectly help with medium agility. Best easy fix to make them more viable. Just don't want to make the Lunchback(edit) again (130+kph, 9 small laser hunchie 4-p), or do we?

Edited by Johnny Reb, 10 October 2013 - 08:36 PM.

[Grym]

Scale is easily the largest issue with mediums.

And the size of the hunch is rediculous.

[Johnny Reb]

Khobai, on 09 October 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

Drop limits solve one problem but create another. Drop limits will cause players to gravitate towards taking mechs that give the most bang for the tonnage. Any solution that results in a large portion of mechs becoming obsolete is not a proper solution.

My concern with tonnage limits is why not just make the best light squad killers with whatever left over for our top assaults/heavy weights, if even needed depending on current limit.

[Johnny Reb]

Sir Wulfrick, on 09 October 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

If and when we get community warfare I can see supply & demand being very helpful in emphasizing fairly standard medium mechs. Your merc unit (or line regiment for that matter) lost a pile of chassis? OK, in the next supply run we can offer you 5 x Hunchbacks, a couple of Kintaros and possibly a Shadow Hawk. Want that specialist raven with all those rare electronic warfare packages, or that monster Atlas? Well OK, but you'll have to wait a few weeks for either and we only have 2 available.

This would quickly emphasize medium mechs and would sort-of be canon based. The major disadvantage of course would be that there would be endless complaining about pilots not being able to use their favourite mechs which, given that this is at the end of the day a game, a valid issue.

The more I think about the lack of medoum mechs problem, and also the level of misunderstanding and resentment that we occaionally have between assault & light pilots, the more I think that introducing proper role warfare would answer many questions and improve the game in many ways. Unfortunately, as we only currently have what are team deathmatch modes (with minor quirks) there really is little opportunity for different roles.

Mission-based matches and even larger maps (yes, really - if you want to promote actual scouting) would I think go some way towards improving the situation.

Wont work, especially for small(12) man merc groups that don't have the mechs to field. Tell them sry can't play this gotta wait till you can field a team..... Might sound good on paper but in practice I doubt PGI could pull that off, even if they wanted to.