427 replies to this topic

[Johnny Reb]

dymlos2003, on 09 October 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:

I main mediums and I usually put out 400+ dmg with each. Sure there are flaws but don't blame sucking on the Mech when it's the pilot that's garbage

I do fine, even great in my mediums in pugs come 12 man verse real comp not so much.

[Johnny Reb]

aniviron, on 09 October 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:

Engine buff will solve nothing. The reason the 130kph slaser swayback was so spoooooky in CB was because all the long range weapons sucked, largely because hit detection. This is no longer the case, and has not been for about 10 months.

Here's the problem with mediums with large engines: they have no guns. Not only do they have no guns, but they have to run big XL engines, because standard engines are heaaaaavy. And all the mediums except the cicada, blackjack, and maybe hunchback are laughably oversized. You know why nobody runs an XL in a cent? It's a deathtrap. You're huge AND have no guns? Free kills! At this point increasing engine cap further won't help, most mediums are already as fast as they can be while still being useful.

What mediums need is a size scale adjustment. Maybe something else too, but making them smaller or at least only as big as mechs 25 tons heavier than them would be a good start.

I disagree, alot of mediums would really benifit from higher engine caps, BJ is top of the list. My bj 1x can run 6 medL with a std 295 currently, if I could run that same build with the 24 tons in the engine in an xl it would be a xl 360. Talk about an improvement. To much for what I want to be buffed but its a great example. Also not a math guy how fast would a 45 ton mech with a xl360 go? Prolly faster or as fast as 140kph.

[Infrasound]

Bilbo, on 09 October 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

Without proper weight limits, there is no way to get someone to play a medium unless that is just what they want to run. Even then, some would probably rather wait to play than play the lighter mech.

This is coming though isn't it? Medium mechs are fine for specific roles, brawling against assualts is not one of them, I do agree with you though issue is perception, cost more = more better. Assaults cost more.

[Johnny Reb]

Infrasound, on 09 October 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

This is coming though isn't it? Medium mechs are fine for specific roles, brawling against assualts is not one of them, I do agree with you though issue is perception, cost more = more better. Assaults cost more.

No! the real problem is lighter armored mediums look and have the same hit-boxes of heavies or assaults!

edit: without anything to help them! Other than some torso tweaks!

Edited by Johnny Reb, 09 October 2013 - 10:33 PM.

[Cerlin]

Dont read my stats. Mediums suck. Buff now. </sarcasm off>

Honestly the most recent buff to mediums really helped. I loved them before and they are awesome now. I have some of my best games in mediums. You cannot have a whole team of them and always win a brawl but they are useful elements on the team. I currently have every medium besides the Kintaro and love 'em. This is not me saying they are the most optimal choice but they are a good choice. If I get more buffs Ill be happy, but weight limits would be enough for me. Make mediums more directly important to teams.

Until then, I will keep driving my mediums and being underestimated. I am cool with that. I prefer to shoot at bad/average players in heavies with XL engines.

Edited by Cerlin, 09 October 2013 - 10:39 PM.

[Johnny Reb]

I currently own at least one of each mech, mastered(till the phoenix drop)! That said, the buff to mediums was good but not enough they need more and I still think the easiest way is an engine bump, cause scaling is not happening soon if ever!

[Sephlock]

"HOW TO GET FOLKS TO RUN MORE MEDIUM MECHS?"

I couldn't find a clip or gif of Mario getting hit and shrinking, so instead i'll just say "make them smaller".

.

[King Picollo]

Make them faster by default.

My Hunchback runs at the same speed as my Cataphract out of the box, where as lights run are much quicker and Assualts much slower.

Give them an extra 10mph, then they'll be a better speed distribution between mechs.

[ArchSight]

I know how to make medium mechs smaller. Just stand further away from them. That's the temporary fix that I'm using for large profile medium mechs.


Fighting at range gives me more than two benefits with a medium mech.

A smaller profile,
Travel time weapons take longer to reach me which makes them less likely to contact with my nearly 100kph medium mech,
Weapon damage decreases at range which is good sense I have less armor than heavy's and assaults.
Not in the thick of battle where the whole enemy team can shoot my not so tanky medium mech.
I have the ability to maintain long range combat due to my speed being higher than heavy's and assaults so I can easily avoid them trying to get close. (Ok, Lights and fast heavy's can get to me but they are likely to have firepower equal to light mechs just the same as I do but maybe not enough range weaponry mounted)
Able to do more damage at range than lights just because of the amount available tonnage for longer ranged weapons.

Saddly, Big maps are the only ones we mediums can take advantage of prolonged long range engagements on. If we get stuck on a small map we loose all those benefits. Would be nice if small maps never existed anymore

The medium mech can be a good damage dealer at range at the same time as being a mech that is hard to put any damage on it due to range, travel time, damage decrease, AMS, speed and none vital hit boxes. I have done this in my Trebuchet 7k and my new Cicada. This advantage opens up the possibility of being a damage dealer that whittles mechs down with limited resistance from ranged flanking positions.

Clans, units, mercenary's, and team of players can take this advantage and use it against the teams that stay closely grouped up in a ball that are not taking advantage of terrain of the map very well. This advantage can break stalemates by weakening the other side before your team makes the big clean up push. Of course, those mediums would need protection from lights or be good at killing lights quickly before the enemy team sends in more mechs. If the enemy team does send more mechs they have broke their team in half making it easier for the meds team to pick away the left overs.

Saddly yet again, I haven't really seen this play out before in a 12v12 match by teams. I possibly can't describe all the reasons why teams wouldn't take advantage of mediums in this way.


That was just all about a range combat advantage with mediums but what about brawling? I'm still expermenting on making a good brawler medium mech but it seems to me right now the large profile scale, lack of ECM coverage, and the seismic sensor giving away our position before we blow off rear armor makes brawling medium loadouts not effective enough to make a impact on the battlefield like the ranged medium mechs that I have. (I've started expermenting with a ECM cicada for brawling, Not Finished)


I still love playing medium mechs because I can apply my mechs firepower all over the battlefield by enforcing my teams position with my own flanking/ambushing positions.

Keep fighting the big fight medium mech pilots. Lets secure our place on the battlefield against the nay sayers.

[AssaultPig]

tonnage limits, or at least better tonnage matching, is what it will take for mediums to be decent. Right now there's barely any reason to drive (say) a blackjack, when you could be driving a jaeger.

Right now mediums size/speed aren't really sufficient to be used for defense the way lights do; their chassis are bigger and unless you can get a mech up to 130 or so it isn't that tough for bigger things to hit anyway. And they obviously lack the armor/firepower of heavies. So the only role that really makes sense for them is a kind of skirmish screen/light hunter role, and a lot of medium chassis aren't well suited to that.

If heavies were slower then mediums would be more attractive if only because they'd be able to get position/cap faster. But then heavies wind up occupying the same gameplay space mediums do now, unless you also slow assaults down to really sluggish speeds.

It doesn't help that a lot of medium chassis have really limiting hardpoint layouts, either.

Edited by AssaultPig, 10 October 2013 - 02:46 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

MustrumRidcully, on 09 October 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

The lore claims that the mediums are the "work horse". How do you translate that into a game without forcing teams to have 50 % of their team consists of mediums by some artifiical restrictions?

I'd say role warfare and modules might be a way to do it.

1) Give Mediums 1-2 extra module slots.
2) Add some new useful and desirable modules and buff existing ones. Ideally not consumable ones, because no one wants to play a mech that forces him to earn less money if he uses its features. (Otherwise I'd say that making ARtillery or Air Strike worthwhile could help, but it won't if it costs that much C-Bills.)
Maybe add some versions of modules that only Mediums can carry. That is making them the "work horse" of mech warfare - they get all the special abilities.
You can do this for all weight classes, you just have to take care that the medium abilties are particularly broad and they can carry multiple of these roles at one.


Of course, you could just increase all engine ratings, but then you're just creating 50 ton Light Mechs that then will replace the 35 ton light mechs. That's just shifting the problem.

I agree with lowering the model size, however. I just don't think we need every medium to be a fast runner. Unless we really can't come up with something better, and if we can still preserve the usefulness of lights.

Technically it isn't an Artificial restriction.Most Mechs, in Canon, are purchased by the House for their Military. A Medium Mech is the Average Mech which can perform multiple roles even if it cannot shine at them. Also... he US Military only uses Abrams... Wonder why that is?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 10 October 2013 - 04:02 AM.

[Xeno Phalcon]

Vassago Rain, on 09 October 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

For starters, not scaling them like assault mechs,

This, if we were rolling dice to see what locations get hit size wouldnt matter but in what amounts to a first person shooter it matters a lot.

Currently only mediums I would say are appropriately scaled are the Blackjack and Hunchback, everything else is either a bit oversized or insanely oversized.



EDIT: also for sephlock

Edited by Xeno Phalcon, 10 October 2013 - 04:18 AM.

[aniviron]

ArchSight, on 10 October 2013 - 02:25 AM, said:

I know how to make medium mechs smaller. Just stand further away from them. That's the temporary fix that I'm using for large profile medium mechs.

The rest of your post details how to fight at long range, which is great, but there are two things you don't address that you really need to if you want to take this line of inquiry (and I am well familiar with it, after a thousand people yelling "THE AWESOME IS A SUPPORT MECH JUST STAY BACK AND DON'T FIRE IF YOU ARE TIRED OF DYING")

The first is that you don't always get to dictate your engagement range. What if there is somebody faster than you? If you're in the back of the pack sniping, you're small to most of the enemies out there, even if you are as big as a highlander. The person you're NOT small to is that JR7-F who thinks your gigantic frame and pithy armor will melt like plastic in a microwave. He's only 250m away from you, because he's small and fast, and now you're big and dead. Doesn't help much. Staying away also has problems against non-light mechs, if you're playing against good teams (or just premades who have VOIP) who can communicate when one lance is pushing so that the surprise Steiner scout lance sneaks up for 400 tons of "oh hi" at 200m.

The other problem with it is that this is not a tactic that is exclusive to mediums. It turns out that every single class can use this exact same tactic, and they all also do it better than mediums. Lights can still mount long range weaponry and use their small size to be even harder to hit, while heavies and assaults are the same size as most mediums, but in the event that it comes down to a sniper fight they're the same tiny size but have double the armor. That's just not a battle you're going to win.

[Shadey99]

Johnny Reb, on 09 October 2013 - 09:18 PM, said:

To much for what I want to be buffed but its a great example. Also not a math guy how fast would a 45 ton mech with a xl360 go? Prolly faster or as fast as 140kph.

Doing this off the top of my head, but the math goes engine rating dived by tonnage of mech times 16.2 equals max kph. So 360/45 * 16.2 = 129.6 kph... Not including speed tweak.

[Gaan Cathal]

Sephlock, on 09 October 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

I couldn't find a clip or gif of Mario getting hit and shrinking, so instead i'll just say "make them smaller".

Cerlin, on 09 October 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

Honestly the most recent buff to mediums really helped. I loved them before and they are awesome now.

Whilst they do need to be 'shrunk' a bit (HBK and BJ are ok), the real thing that'll help them is an inverse of the recent buff (that did help, a lot). The torso twisting/arm movement rates on Heavies and Assaults need nerfing. That'll compound the recent buff to Mediums in the same area since they'll be more able to lay damage on the larger mechs through mobility, and nerf the ability of Heavies and Assaults to target Lights effectively which will be a Medium buff since any properly built Medium can deal with (i.e. kill or force off) a Light very effectively. The problem is that currently so can Heavies and Assaults.

AssaultPig, on 10 October 2013 - 02:45 AM, said:

tonnage limits, or at least better tonnage matching, is what it will take for mediums to be decent. Right now there's barely any reason to drive (say) a blackjack, when you could be driving a jaeger.

This won't help Mediums at all. If anything it'll hurt them. Dropping from a Medium to a Light that is arguably better anyway will free up more tonnage for heavier-end Heavies/Assaults meaning that you can upgrade your ****** Dragons and Awesomes to Cataphracts and Atlai/Stalkers/Highlanders. It'll be a substantial nerf to Mediums, in all likelihood.

[Zypher]

Artgathan, on 09 October 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

There are several problems with Mediums:

• They're (mostly) too big
  
• Engine weights mean that mediums can either move faster than a typical heavy and carry the firepower of a light, or carry more firepower but be a slow (and large) target. Either way, they're outshined by heavies on one end or lights on the other.
  
• The mobility bonuses (while helpful) didn't go far enough. Mediums would have benefited more from Accel/Deceleration and turning speed buffs

The problem with this sort of model is that it doesn't fix imbalances. It just means that people will break out the mediums when they need to grind cash to purchase their next assault.

You can't balance the mechs anyhow, they have different weight classes for a reason, they are good at different duties, at least they are supposed to. The game has no point atm, community warfare might help with this by integrating meaningful objectives if it ever sees the light of day. If the modern day military was akin to MWO it would be like getting everything from a Humvee to an Abrams in a field with an opposing team of similar vehicles, then saying GO. Surprise, the Abrams are the best unit for a slug match.

[ghrast]

GODzillaGSPB, on 09 October 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

DROP LIMITS

Yes, that means that matchmaking will take longer and that there is a good chance you cannot drop. Also, teams with 4 Atlas or something like that may be refused. Life is tough.

But I guess PGI is afraid to do that. Less restraints for more arcadish gameplay makes for more potential players, yay!

Just give folks a 4 mech list and if the mechs in the list can be used you get to drop. if not try ad pick a light, med heavy and assault

[bloodnor]

answer = Bushwacker I know it a few yeas off well 3 yeas off but damn it its not like we have all the mechs we are meant to have by now

[Joseph Mallan]

Just fix the rear armor and I agree!

[Asakara]

Perhaps PGI could implement a system where for X period of time all mechs of Y weight class/chassis get an XP and C-Bill bonus for playing them.

Then, like the various sales they could have provide incentives to play a certain way (i.e. in mediums) for those that want to earn a bonus for doing so.

All that is left is a fancy marketing name like Call To Arms, or Loyalist's Begin Major Recruitment Drive For Medium Pilots Across The InnerSphere, or whatever.

My $0.02.