47 replies to this topic

[Gaan Cathal]

Xanquil, on 10 October 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

And the only reason boating is an issue is pinpoint convergence. Ghost heat doesn't even effect people that boat as long as they don't alpha strike with all of those weapons.

Boating isn't an issue.

[Xanquil]

mike29tw, on 10 October 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

LRM boats aren't boating because of convergence but they're punished because of ghost heat. Boating and convergence are two completely independent problems, that is if you still consider boating a "problem".

You don't use Artemis and tag much do you? I have cored many a mech with LRMs, do to the fact that every one converges on the same location. Even without these two systems every LRM system centers itself on the same location, before it spreads.

[Gaan Cathal]

Xanquil, on 10 October 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

You don't use Artemis and tag much do you? I have cored many a mech with LRMs, do to the fact that every one converges on the same location. Even without these two systems every LRM system centers itself on the same location, before it spreads.

In the context of pinpoint-accuracy/convergence, that is not the convergence people are referring to.

[Xanquil]

FupDup, on 10 October 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

Well, no, it really wasn't designed to address high damage pinpoint alphas in general--or if it was, the people who came up with it had no idea about what the cause of pinpoint damage is. It only address them if a boat is the culprit. Stuff like brawler Victors or Warboss DDC Atlai still put out a large amount of damage and can put it into a fairly small space if they get close (other mixed builds can do this under different conditions). If a system doesn't work very well, then, by definition, it doesn't actually address the problem.


6 PPCs is also a bad example because those builds very never actually that good, even at only 8 heat per shot.

The thing is the devs didn't want to fix the convergence problem because "it was to hard" (sad but true), and would "put too much strain on the servers"(check the ask the devs and you'll see). So instead we got ghost heat. I agree it doesn't fully address the problem, but it was intended to and as time goes on I hope PGI will see that it doesn't work and do something that does. I also agree that 6PPCs is a bad build, but if they all didn't hit the exact same point when fired at the same time it wouldn't need ghost heat.

[FupDup]

Xanquil, on 10 October 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

The thing is the devs didn't want to fix the convergence problem because "it was to hard" (sad but true), and would "put too much strain on the servers"(check the ask the devs and you'll see). So instead we got ghost heat. I agree it doesn't fully address the problem, but it was intended to and as time goes on I hope PGI will see that it doesn't work and do something that does. I also agree that 6PPCs is a bad build, but if they all didn't hit the exact same point when fired at the same time it wouldn't need ghost heat.

The individual heat is already high enough to ensure that the 6 PPC user hurts themselves as much as the enemy.

That, and that they have to seriously strip down on a lot of armor and use a slow XL engine.

[Xanquil]

Gaan Cathal, on 10 October 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

In the context of pinpoint-accuracy/convergence, that is not the convergence people are referring to.

It really is. The pinpoint accurate/convergence issue is when weapons are fired at the same time they all hit the same location. If I can fire multiple LRMS at the same time and do almost no damage to any other location than the one I was aiming at that is a pinpoint alpha strike. The reason it is pinpoint is that the game has made weapons all converge on one point.

[FupDup]

Xanquil, on 10 October 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

It really is. The pinpoint accurate/convergence issue is when weapons are fired at the same time they all hit the same location. If I can fire multiple LRMS at the same time and do almost no damage to any other location than the one I was aiming at that is a pinpoint alpha strike. The reason it is pinpoint is that the game has made weapons all converge on one point.

In the specific case of LRMs, it's actually due to their tracking system (they don't go for the reticule, they do their own thing).

Edited by FupDup, 10 October 2013 - 07:53 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

They have no plans to revisit ghost heat. You'll just have to get used to it like the ECM implementation, mech scaling issues, etc...

[Xanquil]

FupDup, on 10 October 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

The individual heat is already high enough to ensure that the 6 PPC user hurts themselves as much as the enemy.

That, and that they have to seriously strip down on a lot of armor and use a slow XL engine.

This is why I agree a 6 PPC build is bad.

FupDup, on 10 October 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

In the case of LRMs, it's actually due to their tracking system (they don't go for the reticule, they do their own thing).

Unless you are using tag, than they go to where the tag is aiming. I've even legged a mech with LRMS, it was funny.

Edited by Xanquil, 10 October 2013 - 07:55 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Xanquil, on 10 October 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

Unless you are using tag, than they go to where the tag is aiming. I've even legged a mech with LRMS, it was funny.

Is this true?

[Xanquil]

Lyoto Machida, on 10 October 2013 - 07:56 PM, said:

Is this true?

It is from my experience yes. It my just be an unexpected bug though. I also use LRMs at 200-500m range to maximize the effect.

[mike29tw]

Lyoto Machida, on 10 October 2013 - 07:56 PM, said:

Is this true?

Not even remotely.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Xanquil, on 10 October 2013 - 08:02 PM, said:

It is from my experience yes. It my just be an unexpected bug though. I also use LRMs at 200-500m range to maximize the effect.

Wrong.

[Xanquil]

I won't correct you if you think I am wrong, Like I said it may just be a bug, and it is how it works for me.

Edited by Xanquil, 10 October 2013 - 08:09 PM.

[MadPanda]

FupDup, on 10 October 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

The individual heat is already high enough to ensure that the 6 PPC user hurts themselves as much as the enemy.

That, and that they have to seriously strip down on a lot of armor and use a slow XL engine.

What? The 6ppc stalker runs with max engine 310xl and has full armor.

[FupDup]

Xanquil, on 10 October 2013 - 08:08 PM, said:

I won't correct you if you think I am wrong, Like I said it may just be a bug, and it is how it works for me.

You sure it isn't just the normal effect of TAG tightening up the clusters? Try aiming specifically at an arm or something.

MadPanda, on 10 October 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

What? The 6ppc stalker runs with max engine 310xl and has full armor.

I suppose it depends on how many sinks you try to put in it (I was basing the armor stripping off of a build Koniving used). Regardless, and XL is still a deathtrap either way.

[Kazairl]

Xanquil, on 10 October 2013 - 08:08 PM, said:

I won't correct you if you think I am wrong, Like I said it may just be a bug, and it is how it works for me.

It is a common misconception. If you point your tag at a leg, it doesn't converge the missiles there. They still go for the centre of mass. That just happens to be the centretorso if you are front on.

Edited by Kazairl, 10 October 2013 - 08:29 PM.

[MadPanda]

FupDup, on 10 October 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

I suppose it depends on how many sinks you try to put in it (I was basing the armor stripping off of a build Koniving used). Regardless, and XL is still a deathtrap either way.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1a4ef031e335751

Comes with 16dhs, you can't fit anymore because of the crit slots being used up. You seem clueless when it comes to the 6ppc stalker build. Stop talking about it please. You are never gonna take the 6ppc stalker to frontlines. XL vulnerability is meaningless.

[FupDup]

MadPanda, on 10 October 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1a4ef031e335751

Comes with 16dhs, you can't fit anymore because of the crit slots being used up. You seem clueless when it comes to the 6ppc stalker build. Stop talking about it please. You are never gonna take the 6ppc stalker to frontlines. XL vulnerability is meaningless.

You seem agitated at me.

And no, it's not meaningless if there are enemy long-range mechs to trade shots with (keep in mind you need roughly 1.5 seconds to get all 6 PPCs shot out if using volleys of 2) and/or if they manage to sneak in close (mostly applies to fast strikers).


EDIT: I found the poster/thread that I referenced earlier: http://mwomercs.com/...r-still-viable/
The OP of that thread used 18 DHS and an XL 300 (no Endo), and 352 armor.

Edited by FupDup, 10 October 2013 - 08:47 PM.

[Hythos]

Krivvan, on 10 October 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

Alphas from the same portion of the mech were never the problem ghost heat was intended to solve. Mechs like the PPC Stalker and the AC40 Jager had their alphas in their arms, far from each other.

Personally, I am against Ghost Heat regardless if PGI thinks "it's the right thing to do for a real-time implementation of Battletech".
There are units that should not be penalized for using like-weaponry, and if PGI is going to blemish the good name of Battletech by stating it's supposed to work that way, then they need to make exceptions - like, a 3xPPC Awesome, 3xLargeLaser Awesome, 2xAC/20 King Crab, 4xAC/2 Mauler, and other configurations that use multiple same-weapon builds.