131 replies to this topic

[Karazyr]

Pht, on 19 October 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

Which by extension means that you don't care about adults or anyone else - because it is our childhood that forms us as people for the rest of our lives.

I hope you hold this position due to simple ignorance because you haven't thought it's implications out.



This is a sad excuse for your - or anyone's - rotten behavior.

Beyond that, do you think there's ANYTHING that anyone should be "sheltered from?"

If you really, really want to use this excuse, you should also recognize that people are "sheltered from" things by not having them happen to them. Should everyone have the laundry list happen to them? After all, they're sheltered if they haven't had them happen to them.



... and you know that my intent is to "change your perspective" ... how?

Did it ever occur to you that I could simply be pointing out the necessary fruits of your line of reasoning to you?



You've never seen anyone change; Therefore, nobody can change, right?



Sometimes it's better to ask why someone is doing something than presume you know why they're doing it.

PGI really, REALLY needs to put in an option to /ignore "name" or someting like that.

and round and round we go.

i suppose i don't get it because i don't have children nor do i want them, but honestly i dont feel children need to be protected from 'the nasty words' or peoples unsocial behavior.

why should pgi filter the chat for a minority? most of us are adults who can take it.

frankly im done with you and your internet {Noble MechWarrior} act, presumptuous and pretentious is what it is assuming you know anything about anyone online is presumptuous at best and insulting at worst.

[rolly]

oldradagast, on 18 October 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

I get what you're saying, but the OP wasn't asking for "special treatment" for himself - he was asking it for his child. I don't see how that's abnormal. ... Where else will the future generation of Battletech fans come from? Probably not from sitting around a table, playing the old tabletop game (as much fun as it is) - video games are the new way to bring people into the fold, so let's welcome them, not scare them off.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Actually to be honest I wasn't intending to ask for anything special per se. Ie. "Please let him shoot at all of you and give him 30 seconds before you open up." It was more of a friendly "Hey guys, I'm sharing this game with my son for the first time. Can you show us a tiny bit of friendly sportsmanship, teamwork and give him/me some leeway while he learns the ropes?"

What I was intending is the basic level of sportsmanship in any game/sport that happens when you have new people entering it to learn the ropes. At some level you, you at very least tolerate their noobish behaviour, mistakes or offer them advice, or at most cover fire.

However, the original purpose of this thread is to get folks to be more conscious about their interactions and be better to one another. Why? Because I think we all enjoy this game, otherwise we wouldn't be here pouring our time and money into it. It takes a particular special geeky fan to love mecha combat and in particular Battletech/Mechwarrior. Its not your typical shooter.

Its amusing to see that the negative comments fall under the catagory of "I hate kids" and "parenting style", which are completely off-topic from the initial challenge offered to "be better". I've even left this open ended for each to decide what that is for them. In this example this easily could have been first-timer mature player, someones little brother/sister, or a girlfriends/wife first time playing.

Again I stress this isn't about changing the internet, parenting styles, or how much you hate children. Its about challenging everyone who reads this to be better in the MWO community context. I love this game, I'm sure you love this game too. Every single one of us has a stake in it and what we put into the game, everyone: old and especially new benefits from it.

[rolly]

Rasc4l, on 18 October 2013 - 01:20 AM, said:

So what is the opposite phrase for "No offense, but..." in English? Well I'll try:

Yes offense, but sounds like you're new to the Internet or just in general live in a bubble. What those guys said is not even BAD. That's the usual mechwarrior macho blabber and they might even be trying to "roleplay" or whatever.

If they had threatened to dismember your son after kicking his rear torso in combat, then you might have a MINOR point in your message.




Sounds like you need to join that guild that doesn't swear (lol) or do something else that maintains your bubble.

Bottom line: Your post is just another BS-post asking for more censorship, which is already happening too much also in the west. We can't even the say the word **** in this forum without getting the censorship stars.

So in general, I'm doing my part in blasting any newbies to hell, who have the nerve to ask for lenience just because "it's their first time" or "because I'm young". Spare us the requests for doublestandards.

Reading comprehension is useful tool. You may want to re-read the thread. As I recall, sportsmanship isn't a double standard.

a little fluffy bunny, on 16 October 2013 - 02:56 AM, said:

Challenge: Rejected.

Bravo. I respect you for having the honesty to say so.

Edited by rolly, 20 October 2013 - 07:54 AM.

[Pht]

Derrpy, on 19 October 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

... assuming you know anything about anyone online is presumptuous at best and insulting at worst.

Derrpy, on 15 October 2013 - 07:26 PM, said:

...people seem to forget that this is just a game, ...

... Asking people to be super nice and treat people like sportsmen in a game online is moronic, it will never happen because anonymity makes people act like ...

Derrpy, on 17 October 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

Christ you really like playing the internet {Noble MechWarrior} dont you......

And most ironically, in your post I'm replying to here:

Derrpy, on 19 October 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

frankly im done with you and your internet {Noble MechWarrior} act,...

It's rather odd to have posted these things - your assumptions about what you know about people and myself online. Especially when I directly posted that I wasn't attempting to persuade you to change - and to than complain about the very thing you've been doing. Repeatedly.

Your mind is your own to make up - and on the flipside, "the internet is a harsh place" - after all, somebody might illustrate the truth and end results of what you're saying to you in a way that ticks you off enough to make you argue against them passionately.

Edited by Pht, 20 October 2013 - 10:56 AM.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Derrpy, on 17 October 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

Honestly i don't care about kids, i don't think they need to be sheltered from the reality's of life.
I understand that people should be decent however many are not so should we try and change the perspective of every {LT-MOB-25} end on the internet with a forum post? no you just get over it and realize people don't change.

i harbor no ill will towards you, i just don't understand why your so obsessed with trying to get the internet to play nice, it wont happen.

So from this post I get that since you don't think kids should be sheltered, no one should even try to do so for their own kids, even if they believe differently from you? How does that logic work?

Rasc4l, on 18 October 2013 - 01:20 AM, said:

So what is the opposite phrase for "No offense, but..." in English? Well I'll try:

Yes offense, but sounds like you're new to the Internet or just in general live in a bubble. What those guys said is not even BAD. That's the usual mechwarrior macho blabber and they might even be trying to "roleplay" or whatever.

If they had threatened to dismember your son after kicking his rear torso in combat, then you might have a MINOR point in your message.

Sounds like you need to join that guild that doesn't swear (lol) or do something else that maintains your bubble.

Bottom line: Your post is just another BS-post asking for more censorship, which is already happening too much also in the west. We can't even the say the word **** in this forum without getting the censorship stars.

So in general, I'm doing my part in blasting any newbies to hell, who have the nerve to ask for lenience just because "it's their first time" or "because I'm young". Spare us the requests for doublestandards.

You apparently don't realize that censorship is like violence. It's only a bad thing when it's wrong. Violence in self-defense is not wrong, and censorship by a company over it's own work/product etc isn't wrong since if you don't like it you don't have to participate etc.

So what exactly is your stake in this? Do you enjoy yelling at children and hurting their feelings? Do you enjoy beating people that stand no chance against you? Just trying to understand where you are coming from.

Derrpy, on 19 October 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

and round and round we go.

i suppose i don't get it because i don't have children nor do i want them, but honestly i dont feel children need to be protected from 'the nasty words' or peoples unsocial behavior.

why should pgi filter the chat for a minority? most of us are adults who can take it.

frankly im done with you and your internet {Noble MechWarrior} act, presumptuous and pretentious is what it is assuming you know anything about anyone online is presumptuous at best and insulting at worst.

I'll take these in order. I have a 9 yr old son. When it comes to "nasty words" and "unsocial behavior" I both shelter and explain such actions. We hear someone cussing or acting inappropriately in public and I tell him to note how other people are reacting. Then I ask now do you understand why it isn't a good idea to act/talk that way? At the same time, I don't take him places where this is likely to occur, well other than Walmart. Also, any one who acts like you will not be invited to my house, I would report you at work, etc. Can Pht and I change the world? Of course not, we aren't delusional. But we do know for a fact that if we do nothing, then we are not helping and thus tacitly hurting.

FTR, to any other parents who consider such an approach, I am 6'4" and around 275 lbs. so I don't have many problems with people objecting to me using them as lessons. Your mileage may vary.

Finally, Derppy, you remind me the line that goes something like "If you think America is free, try walking into a deli and ******* on the cheese". This is usually used to prove that The Man is oppressing people like you etc, but it really just shows that the speaker is a selfish ***** since it fails to account for the rights of the deli's owner who may not want urine sprayed on his cheese.

[cranect]

I hope you take the time and see this. If you haven't already check out the seraphim guild. It is full of great people who are just there to have fun without putting others down. Check it out you won't regret it.

[Rasc4l]

Nick Makiaveli, on 20 October 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

So from this post I get that since you don't think kids should be sheltered, no one should even try to do so for their own kids, even if they believe differently from you? How does that logic work?

Your deduction goes quite far astray and I guess you didn't read my second post.

I will still shortly to try reiterate my point.

Nick Makiaveli, on 20 October 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

You apparently don't realize that censorship is like violence. It's only a bad thing when it's wrong. Violence in self-defense is not wrong, and censorship by a company over it's own work/product etc isn't wrong since if you don't like it you don't have to participate etc.

About censorship: You apparently don't realize that with censorship we are already beyond the parody horizon. It is my understanding that e.g. in North American TV-broadcasts they actually put beebs in place of swear words and ruin the audio stream while having no problem showing violence. My point about censorship was that it shouldn't be so and the same thing manifests as *****-censorship in MWO forums. I don't condone any action that take things further like denying people right to play mechwarrior as mechwarriors who are soldiers and I don't know any human culture where soldier don't kill and swear. "So you think people should be allowed to spam forums with 4-letter words with font 40?!". No, please use your head.

Nick Makiaveli, on 20 October 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

So what exactly is your stake in this? Do you enjoy yelling at children and hurting their feelings? Do you enjoy beating people that stand no chance against you? Just trying to understand where you are coming from.

Please wipe the foam from the corner of your mouth. Like I said, I'll try to be short:


1. If I had a kid, I would also probably at some point play the game with him.


2. I might completely jokingly mention that fact at a server and even with a ask for leniency


3. Whatever they would say, would be fine with me. If they were nasty for real, not like in OP, I would tell my son "See, dad takes a screenshot and reports such behaviour, you don't make real world threats online such as that they will come to your house and leg you with a 6 inch 3D printed Atlas. But it's cool if they say they wanna kill me in the game. That's kind of the point."


4. What I would NOT do, is complain at forums about the nature of Internet i.e. the human nature. Especially after I have asked for doublestandards, which are WRONG in case that's missed. If I had said "My son is playing, prepare to be somewhat hit, make him better by showing him skill!", and still they had said what they said, OP would have a better case but even then, their language was nothing.

cranect, on 20 October 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

I hope you take the time and see this. If you haven't already check out the seraphim guild. It is full of great people who are just there to have fun without putting others down. Check it out you won't regret it.

I have no doubt that they are great mechwarriors and nice people. I am just simply greatly amused by the notion of not swearing soldiers. No offense here, really, I apologize if any was felt.

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

To those who wish to speak ill of how the person parents, or saying that the child is being asked to receive special treatment, or those who will call it sheltering the child. The OP is the parent and you are not, it's the op's choice to let the child play a game that means something to the op and the op wishes to pass this along to the next generation of MW fans. So rather then being a selfish, self centered, self serving "life is all about me" kind of person, try to see it from the op's position as a parent. The op wants to raise their child to enjoy games and be a responsible gamer without having to explain away things like rear entry, oral, or even why this guy is asking if the kid wants to see his big gauss. You gasp at what I just typed, but I've seen this in MWO drops and (o)(o), and many other things in chat that I would not want my kids to see and nor should you even if you are a self centered bag of excrement.

I've asked for the option to turn chat off in game so my kids and my wife can play without being harassed by some lonely, bitter, shut in, who aspires to be nothing more then an internet troll, *********, Ariel Castro wanna be. Thankfully I've been told from Russ, Bryan, Paul, and others on the dev team that this option is coming but it's not a priority at this point. So if having the ability to turn chat off is something you really want then you need to make noise about it, contact support, contact the Devs via Twitter, Facebook, MWO account, in game, on NGNG, Ask the Devs, etc. The more people we have asking for the ability to turn off chat the faster it will come.

As for the detractors who will say "You'll ruin the game if you do that", no it won't. In pugs almost nobody communicates vital info and when they do it gets ignored. In a 4 Man we are on TS so who cares about chat, and in 12 man as well. My kid not paying attention to chat because it's off will have less affect on the game then you care to realize. Also those who will say "you keep your kids out of my game!" I have to say my 11 year old plays better then LOTS of you and usually is a big contributor to the effort. He started on MW4 and has dropped in Training grounds lots of time with MWO, he started out as bad as you or I did and got better by what.....PLAYING...so back off and let the kids play.

[Alaskan Nobody]

A bump for this and some thoughts on swearing
Hope this doesn't come across as any kind of preachy...

The other day, reading Harry Potter of all things ( ) it occurred to me, living rather far from England, that Ron Weasley actually has kind of a dirty mouth.... to the English.
Which made me wonder - why is what he says "Swearing" to them and not us here in the US of A?

So I did some research on just what swearing/cussing/using-words-in-that-manor really was.

Oldest mention I could find was from the Bible:
Something about not using the Lord's name in vain. (Exact phrasing depends on the version of the Bible you are using)
Which made me wonder - because the 'modern' definition of vain makes absolutely no sense in that context...
So I pulled out a really old dictionary (I am weird yes, I read and collect dictionaries )

Archaically, IE originally (near as I could tell anyways) vain meant useless or meaningless.
So: do not use the Lord's name in a manor that gave it no meaning?
Certainly fit in with the way Ron throws the word "Bloody" around, or the way most people use "Damn" (which has the same definition as Dam - to stop something's progress ) or "Hell", or any of the 'swearwords'

Looking at that and thinking for a bit, it occurred to me, it isn't any particular set of words - it is the way they are used.

"Darn" in that case would be no better than "Damn"
"Heck" no better than "Hell"

Looking at it that way.... I do not (personally) know anyone who does not swear... though we tend to think of it as 'not-swearing'

Adding to the OP's challenge, I at least am going to attempt to remove swearing more fully from my life.

(Not going so well so far - bad habits are hard to break )
Thoughts??
Feedback?


Sorry for the smaller typset - odd itch in my head demanded it - as above (if small) yes, I am weird.

[Mr D One]

I think context is the key as you get deeper into this argument.

You can argue a lot of good points from various points of view.

All of us can act poorly at times.

When your communicating with your team, such as, "Have fun and do your best bois." or "You've got this guys, gj" vs nothing at all or negative type, you can turn losses into 12 - 1 victories (last night, river city night for example). (See Mycrus's posts for more examples.)

I myself make a note if someone says "go easy, first time, bad build, basic xp etc", I will hold back and pick on the more experienced targets.

If you can put yourself in that person pov, then maybe you would like them to be treated the way you would like to be treated.

[audi man]

I do wonder about this theory of 'anonimity' allowing seemingly ordinary people to become trolls. It seems to be that gamers are among the more able part of the populace to assume the identity or their tag, name, MMO character, Avatar, etc etc.

In real life, my name sure isn't gldgti. But as gldgti, I have an identity that is assumed every time I drop in game or post, and I doubt I'm the only person that realises the way that people view that identity is just as valid to me, as if I were acting as the real me.... ergo, if you act like an ******** online, that still makes you an ********, even if you don't act like that in real life. See cyberbullying for more info on that...

Anyway, no, I don't think its anonimity - I think its consequences. In real life, if you act poorly, most of the time, there are real consequences.

In game, there are no consequences for bad language, TK, etc - not just this game, but most games. I truely believe, like some here, that the more of us that try to act as though our existence had real consequences in game, the better off all of our online experiences will be. I don't for a second think that many (or even any) of those who attempt to excuse poor behaviour as a 'right', or an 'inevitability' will listen, but that doesn't change my belief in the principle.

I for one, try to act as though my existence online has consequences. I hope others do, and will, too.

Edited by gldgti, 13 November 2013 - 11:44 PM.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Dar1ng One, on 13 November 2013 - 10:28 PM, said:

I myself make a note if someone says "go easy, first time, bad build, basic xp etc", I will hold back and pick on the more experienced targets.

I get what you are saying, but seems to me this would also encourage people to lie about it in order to gain an advantage.

Also, seems to me that since they chose to drop with a "bad build", that's on them. Why should anyone cut them slack for it? If they are testing, how can they get accurate data if people go easy on them? No xp? So? Treat it as a learning experience, not an excuse to get babied.

Now an actual first time player etc, that would be different if this were a solo game. But it's not, and if he hits me with an AC it will do the same damage as if Koniving had. Sure he's less likely to hit, but that's not the point. As above, play and learn. Spectate and all that. Would offer advice. Next time, do this and not that, and it would have made it harder for me to kill you etc.

I'm not a heartless child born to unwed parents, but I also don't buy the please don't hurt because blah blah.

gldgti, on 13 November 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

I do wonder about this theory of 'anonimity' allowing seemingly ordinary people to become trolls. It seems to be that gamers are among the more able part of the populace to assume the identity or their tag, name, MMO character, Avatar, etc etc.

In real life, my name sure isn't gldgti. But as gldgti, I have an identity that is assumed every time I drop in game or post, and I doubt I'm the only person that realises the way that people view that identity is just as valid to me, as if I were acting as the real me.... ergo, if you act like an ******** online, that still makes you an ********, even if you don't act like that in real life. See cyberbullying for more info on that...

Anyway, no, I don't think its anonimity - I think its consequences. In real life, if you act poorly, most of the time, there are real consequences.

In game, there are no consequences for bad language, TK, etc - not just this game, but most games. I truely believe, like some here, that the more of us that try to act as though our existence had real consequences in game, the better off all of our online experiences will be. I don't for a second think that many (or even any) of those who attempt to excuse poor behaviour as a 'right', or an 'inevitability' will listen, but that doesn't change my belief in the principle.

I for one, try to act as though my existence online has consequences. I hope others do, and will, too.

What exactly do you wonder about? The odds of anyone finding them at school/work tomorrow and kicking their butt over the trash they said tonight is virtually nil. Who knows what the odds are of they getting sanctioned by PGI especially since PGI foolishly fails to publish how many people they have banned. No choice in who you drop with, so not like they will eventually shunted into the A-hole queue.

So there is really very little keeping someone with self-esteem issues from acting out a fantasy in-game. Even if it's a simple as they are a better player than you and you are a {Dezgra} for doing <insert whatever they think you did or didn't do>, to discussing the **** dungeon they have in their basement (yes I really did report two guys for that), they can pretend to be someone other than themselves for a time, which is often what gaming is about. These guys just take a bit too far, usually because they suck at the game or no one is bowing before them and praising their epeen.