104 replies to this topic

[Imperius]

If you continue to use ghost heat in the game then remove the requirement of ammo on my ballistics. Ballistics were balanced though ammo and weight. Now we have energy heat mechanics too.

You could add armor to CT's since that is 90% of deaths and the only thing people seem to aim for.
You could split up the CT hit boxes, but since you're not good at hitbox making I suggest the above route.

Many different ways to fix this, and you chose ghost heat.

Come at me forum I can always count on you to derail my topics.

[culverin]

You are on track.

Ghost heat is a broken mechanic that does never needed to exist.

Heat, weight and crits and ammo and heatsink requirements already balance out a mech design.


It was made to manage multi-weapon pinpoint alphas which should never have existed to begin with.
We have that issue because of
1. Perfect weapon convergence.
2. Lack of a punishing heat scale.



I support the removal of ghost heat 100%.

With the force of a locomotive.

[Spheroid]

I really don't agree with conclusion that ghost heat is the "lazy" approach to mitigate overly lethal time to kill. As the number and types of weapons increases the workload involved to holistically balance their specific behavior becomes huge. Heat is a in place mechanic and changing the ghost heat value is possibly the quickest and most efficacious way to reduce X weapon combinations of pinpoint damage. All the other ways I can think of addressing the pinpoint problem would carry more CPU/server load then a simple heat table lookup. Also don't you want programmers working on more important bug fixes like HSR instead of inventing new code to achieve the same end?

Edited by Spheroid, 13 October 2013 - 07:29 PM.

[FupDup]

Spheroid, on 13 October 2013 - 07:28 PM, said:

I really don't agree with conclusion that ghost heat is the "lazy" approach to mitigate overly lethal time to kill. As the number and types of weapons increases the workload involved to holistically balance their specific behavior becomes huge. Heat is a in place mechanic and changing the ghost heat value is possibly the quickest and most efficacious way to reduce X weapon combinations of pinpoint damage. All the other ways I can think of addressing the pinpoint problem would carry more CPU/server load then a simple heat table lookup. Also don't you want programmers working on more important bug fixes like HSR instead of inventing new code to achieve the same end?

The thing is, ghost heat does not actually address pinpoint damage. It simply nerfs boats.

Let me explain. Let's say that I'm mounting some lasers, autocannons, and SRMs. If my target is fairly close, immobile, or moving straight towards me, all of my shots are going to hit the same place (neglect SRM spread for now). Ghost heat doesn't stop mixed loadouts from dealing pinpoint damage. At all. LRMs and SSRMs, due to their "auto aim" nature, can be effectively combined with any other weapon systems in the game because they aim themselves and thus don't require different leads. All laser weapons and machine guns are hitscan, which means you can intermix them however you please. Apparently 2 LRM20 + 4 LRM5 is totally okay according to PGI, but 3 LRM10 is penalized despite the fact that it deals only half as much damage. AC/10 and (U)AC/5 aren't even on the list and they can do some nice focused damage. 6 ML + 1 LL is more powerful than 7 ML, yet 7 ML receives a penalty and 6 ML gets no such penalty. 6 ML deal 30 damage, and 3 LL deal only 27 damage, and yet the 3 LL receives extra heat whereas the 6 ML build does not. The AC/2's ghost heat was designed to discourage the use of chain-fire, whereas the overall purpose of GH is supposed to encourage chain-firing.


People have to get this through their heads. GH does not reduce pinpoint damage, it simply penalizes boats. It does nothing more than that. Hell, it even penalizes MIXED loadouts such as the Gauss + 3 LL + some SRMs Heavy Metal. It fails at its stated objectives, and sometimes it even penalizes the things that it's supposed to reward. In the case of the AC/2 is does the exact opposite thing of what it was intended to do.

Edited by FupDup, 13 October 2013 - 07:46 PM.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Imperius, on 13 October 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

If you continue to use ghost heat in the game then remove the requirement of ammo on my ballistics. Ballistics were balanced though ammo and weight. Now we have energy heat mechanics too.

You could add armor to CT's since that is 90% of deaths and the only thing people seem to aim for.
You could split up the CT hit boxes, but since you're not good at hitbox making I suggest the above route.

Many different ways to fix this, and you chose ghost heat.

Come at me forum I can always count on you to derail my topics.

Lol, I don't disagree with your principle to remove Ghost Heat as a lazy mechanic, though I hope you do have something to replace it with. It does just crack me up that you keep posting that it is ballistics that got screwed by Ghost Heat, instead of energy weapons, unless your an avid AC2 fan.

[Amsro]

The game doesn't need anything to replace Ghost Heat because it is no longer needed.

PPC's and ERPPC's are hot enough on their own that people won't boat them either way. Not worth it, and lets be honest killing the PPC meta was the goal of this monumental error.

The numbers 10 & 15 could have saved us months of tears from a terrible Meta and avoided countless hours of development time on a useless system.

[Lykaon]

If the desired purpose of ghost heat was to improve mech survival times under fire than it is a failure.There are many other routes that could have been taken that would have made an actual difference but,we got ghost heat instead.

I suppose we will be stuck with it as a "fix" just like how altering BAP to counter ECM somehow "fixed" the over featured ECM mechanics.

Near instant kills of mechs still occur from pinpoint front loaded damage and guess what? ECM is still way over featured.
Making players jump hoops to do the same old same old isn't a fix it's complicating a persistant problem.

So 4 PPCs won't work all fired at once? either fire 2 then .5 seconds later fire the other two or replace the 2 PPC with an AC20. Hoops jumped but sameness achieved.

BAP counters ECM? just bring more ECM sameness achieved! Or don't bearly anyone in Pubby matches uses BAP.

There needs to be actual solutions that make actual changes that are not obscure and arcane.

[Spheroid]

Amsro, on 13 October 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

The game doesn't need anything to replace Ghost Heat because it is no longer needed.

PPC's and ERPPC's are hot enough on their own that people won't boat them either way. Not worth it, and lets be honest killing the PPC meta was the goal of this monumental error.

The numbers 10 & 15 could have saved us months of tears from a terrible Meta and avoided countless hours of development time on a useless system.

Remember though with Clan tech coming ghost heat is in place to nerf stuff like SSRM24-30 or multiple ER PPC which although having the same heat would do 50% more damage than the IS model. Isn't tweaking ghost heat a better solution than making Clan weapons super weak?

[FupDup]

Spheroid, on 13 October 2013 - 08:04 PM, said:

Remember though with Clan tech coming ghost heat is in place to nerf stuff like SSRM24-30 or multiple ER PPC which although having the same heat would do 50% more damage than the IS model. Isn't tweaking ghost heat a better solution than making Clan weapons super weak?

Ghost heat does absolutely nothing to Streaks whatsoever because they're autoaim. Firing them one at a time has identical accuracy as firing them all at once. If anything, chain-firing Streaks is DEADLIER because of the screen shake + blur effect on the target (makes it hard for them to return fire).


For the CERPPC, it does 15 damage per shot. Even with the max alpha set to 1 that would/will be utterly broken. Clan mechs can also pack more sinks to handle the heat (2 slots per DHS).

Edited by FupDup, 13 October 2013 - 08:07 PM.

[Spheroid]

FupDup, on 13 October 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

Ghost heat does absolutely nothing to Streaks whatsoever because they're autoaim. Firing them one at a time has identical accuracy as firing them all at once. If anything, chain-firing Streaks is DEADLIER because of the screen shake + blur effect on the target (makes it hard for them to return fire).


For the CERPPC, it does 15 damage per shot. Even with the max alpha set to 1 that would/will be utterly broken.

There is a small ghost heat penalty on streaks. I can perceive in my Kintaro. The inner sphere only has the SSRM2. My solution to Clan streak boats would be have a SSRM6 carry the heat penalty equivalent to a multiple of a SSRM2 so 3xSSRM6 = ghost heat of 9xSSRM2. I believe that would discourage super streak boats.

Edited by Spheroid, 13 October 2013 - 08:14 PM.

[FupDup]

Spheroid, on 13 October 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

There is a small ghost heat penalty on streaks. I can perceive in my Kintaro. The inner sphere only has the SSRM2. My solution to Clan streak boats would be have a SSRM6 carry the heat penalty equivalent to a multiple of a SSRM2 so 3xSSRM6 = ghost heat of 9XSSRM2. I believe that would discourage super streak boats.

You missed the point.

Ghost heat only takes effect when you fire more weapons than the specified "max alpha" value. No weapon in the game has a max alpha lower than 1, and no weapon will ever give you ghost heat for just firing a single one of it. Therefore, firing any weapon one at a time will result in no heat penalties incurred. For the Streak SRM6, this will result in 4 heat every shot (the same as a regular SRM6).

For most weapons, firing one at a time will result in reduced accuracy due to natural human error and your target torso twisting. For Streak SRMs, they literally aim themselves, which means there is no consequence for using chain-fire with them. In fact, firing Streaks one at a time is a strength because it keeps your target's screen shaken up and blurred so they can't shoot back at you as effectively. Problem not solved.

Edited by FupDup, 13 October 2013 - 08:19 PM.

[Spheroid]

No light hunter would screw around wasting valuable seconds by chain firing. The targeting bug is being fixed so full FOV streak lock is going away. Alpha that ****.

[FupDup]

Spheroid, on 13 October 2013 - 08:22 PM, said:

No light hunter would screw around wasting valuable seconds by chain firing. The targeting bug is being fixed so full FOV streak lock is going away. Alpha that ****.

Firing one SSRM6 at a time is the same as firing 3 Inner Sphere SSRM2 at the same time. That's still pretty good, especially if you consider that a Clan SSRM6 is only 3 tons and has 360 meter range.

Edited by FupDup, 13 October 2013 - 08:24 PM.

[Splitpin]

Ghost heat can not be called lazy, it was a lot of development work and it's a lot of processor work for server and clients. But it is totally unnecessary and pointless. It and many other nerfs were dog chasing tail attempts to appease anti FTOM whines from such as this forum. Now we have a new tail chasing cycle beginning against samller ballistics and the new FOTM builds. Like every other cycle, be that LRMS, PPCs, StreakCats or Gauss rifles the problem isn't the mech or weapon itself, 1 or 2 StreakCats, PPC boats, GaussCats or missile boats isn't a problem, 4,5 or 6 of them in a team is the problem, that's the over balance. That's what needs fixing.

[NextGame]

ghost heat is a direct nerf to fun, and an assault against logic and critical thinking

[MustrumRidcully]

I am not sure it's lazy.

I mean, you have to program all that sh*t with special timers and all that.

It's just a very odd, arbitrary mechanic for such an effort.

[Sir Ratburger]

Ghost heat is a overcomplicated, illogical and downright frustrating 'solution' to a problem that has so many easier and explainable ways of dealing with imbalances, many which have been suggested by the community.

I mean come on, firing 2 AC2's slighly apart and you generate more heat than a large laser and overheat in under 7 seconds.

Ghost heat needs to be removed completely and the fool who came up with it needs suspending for a week.

Edited by Sir Ratburger, 14 October 2013 - 06:06 AM.

[General Taskeen]

At one point PGI said they wouldn't do heat stacking penalities for reasons of "too hard to explain to players"... and then they did it anyways. Yikes.

[FupDup]

General Taskeen, on 14 October 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

At one point PGI said they wouldn't do heat stacking penalities for reasons of "too hard to explain to players"... and then they did it anyways. Yikes.

It was their position at the time.

Edited by FupDup, 14 October 2013 - 07:07 AM.

[Felbombling]

If you peel back the layers, PGI made multiple bad decisions in a board room before the first line of code was written for this game. Honestly, the whole game and core game mechanics they decided upon are geared towards front loaded damage with heavy weapons. Multiple people saw it in Closed Beta and warned PGI of the pitfalls, but those warnings went unheeded. Ghost heat is an attempt to sweep some of those decisions under the carpet, rather than revisit them. It would be great if the test server was used for some core mechanic testing, such as the addition of heat related penalties, a faster heat dissipation rate, slower reload/recycle times on weapons, etc. Then perhaps some of the misconceptions PGI has about heat-neutral Mechs being bad for the game will be disproven.