104 replies to this topic

[General Taskeen]

10SHS, 2 ML Heat Neutrality so OP = The Devil!

Edited by General Taskeen, 14 October 2013 - 07:52 AM.

[focuspark]

GHOST HEAT A LAZY BALANCE MECHANIC ONLY A MENTALLY CHALLENGED CHIMP WOULD INVENT

There, fixed that for you.

[Mack1]

The game is pretty empty, you can clearly see this when I drop with friends who are all very good and we end up playing with guys in trial Mechs. We also see the same names game after game and when you consider there is one 1 server world wide, it's a pretty sorry state. I probably have over 100 ppl on my friends list, I rarely see more than 8 on at a time.

Ghost heat is responsible for the majority of them leaving, it's certainly stopped me playing every evening, I am lucky if I play twice a week now. The game is boring without LRM boats, PPC & Gauss snipers, all we see now is 2 LL 4 ML and a few ballistics, what a total borefest.

[Splitpin]

Totally concur Mack1, I play with a group of ~15 players and the common sentiment is frustration. Just about every speciality or style of play has in turn been nerfed out of existence and now we've ended up with a bland unsatisfying mess.

[Sir Ratburger]

Its definitely the reason I hardly play anymore, I used to have a fun game every day when I came back from work to unwind... now its just frustrating and I know PGI doesn’t listen to any of the people who care in the community which adds to that so I have pretty much given up supporting them. It's going to take a miracle for me to ever play with the passion I used to and ever spend a penny again.

PGI congratulations for chasing away your main fan base with your terrible decisions and lies, you should have punished the fool who came up with ghost heat by making him/her read through ALL the forums and find a REAL solution that has basically been handed to you on a silver platter to replace ghost heat, then suspend him/her for a week without pay. <--- and if you think I am just ranting, I'm not - I just gave you some usefull feedback, use it!

[Gozer]

Anyone else find it funny that they went through all the trouble of inventing this whole Ghost Heat Mechanic INSTEAD of going with the original "Low fixed Heat Scale high dissipation" route?

I mean it just seems odd to invent this extra thing out of whole cloth instead of just working with the original system.

[MustrumRidcully]

Gozer, on 15 October 2013 - 01:47 AM, said:

Anyone else find it funny that they went through all the trouble of inventing this whole Ghost Heat Mechanic INSTEAD of going with the original "Low fixed Heat Scale high dissipation" route?

I mean it just seems odd to invent this extra thing out of whole cloth instead of just working with the original system.

Well, they said they were against that change because it would also affect builds that didn't need a change.

And their system doesn't do this, obviously, because Awesome 8Q and 9M, Hunchback 4P and any AC/2 builds are not affected at all by ghost heat, right?


In short, yes, I find it odd.

[Taemien]

So why this hate over ghost heat? If you all are so 'pro' it wouldn't have affected you. If you stuck with mixed loadout builds from the beginning, then those changes wouldn't mean anything.

But its the popular thing to stack as many of the same sort of weapon as can fit on a given chassis. Less time spent in the mechlab, less skill needed to lead a target, and less thought when pulling the trigger. I've seen the same thought process when it came to spending talent points in WoW. The simpler rotations were the most popular, though hardly the most effective.

And knock it off with the new player tirade some of you have been spouting. The game has been out for nearly a year. The amount of new players is paltry, they're vets now. Maybe not great vets, but vets none the less. They know how to take a medium laser off and add a heatsink by now. Its about time they put some thought process into it.

And what is the hope behind making the thousandth thread about it? If they were going to revert it, they would have done it before a month passed after they added it in. It ain't changing now unless they figure out a better system. With them working on Clan tech now, I'm sure what we have is what we got for a while. Best to move on. If its that game breaking, then take a pass till MechWarrior 6. Otherwise adapt.

Seriously.. I could have gone on for the last 15 years about how SMB2 should have had the fireflower. But I doubt Nintendo would have sent me a cartridge for my NES with it added back in. This is about to tread into that territory by now.

[MustrumRidcully]

Taemien, on 15 October 2013 - 02:03 AM, said:

So why this hate over ghost heat? If you all are so 'pro' it wouldn't have affected you. If you stuck with mixed loadout builds from the beginning, then those changes wouldn't mean anything.

Because game design.

We all recognize the problem, but we don't accept the solution. It's terribly arbitrary mechanic.

You mistake the distaste for bad game design with the inability to cope with it in play.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 15 October 2013 - 02:10 AM.

[Sir Ratburger]

MustrumRidcully, on 15 October 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

Well, they said they were against that change because it would also affect builds that didn't need a change.

And their system doesn't do this, obviously, because Awesome 8Q and 9M, Hunchback 4P and any AC/2 builds are not affected at all by ghost heat, right?


In short, yes, I find it odd.

The thing that angers me most is the AC2 ghost heat... On only two fired slightly timed apart.

Edited by Sir Ratburger, 15 October 2013 - 04:07 AM.

[FupDup]

Taemien, on 15 October 2013 - 02:03 AM, said:

So why this hate over ghost heat? If you all are so 'pro' it wouldn't have affected you. If you stuck with mixed loadout builds from the beginning, then those changes wouldn't mean anything.

But its the popular thing to stack as many of the same sort of weapon as can fit on a given chassis. Less time spent in the mechlab, less skill needed to lead a target, and less thought when pulling the trigger. I've seen the same thought process when it came to spending talent points in WoW. The simpler rotations were the most popular, though hardly the most effective.
...

Is this build a boat?

What about this one?

Or this one?

Or this one?


Why are the mixed builds I posted above getting ghost heat penalties? Kind of breaks your argument.

Edited by FupDup, 15 October 2013 - 04:26 AM.

[Dirkdaring]

FupDup, on 13 October 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

Firing one SSRM6 at a time is the same as firing 3 Inner Sphere SSRM2 at the same time. That's still pretty good, especially if you consider that a Clan SSRM6 is only 3 tons and has 360 meter range.

Or... the 'streak' CLRM-20 (would be in this game) is only 5 tons and has zero/zip/nada minimum range.

I can't wait to see how badly clantech is going to mess up this game if they introduce it. I need to stock up on popcorn.

Edited by Dirkdaring, 15 October 2013 - 04:39 AM.

[sj mausgmr]

The heat penalty system does it's job of discouraging, not preventing players from certain key alpha strike mechanics, and whilst it's far from perfect (the community is doing a great job of proving how much of a crutch alpha striking has always been to most mechwarrior players), it is a system that tackles the problem, to a degree. This is a complicated topic bound to upset some people regardless of how it was approached, what matters here is that it's the mechanic it seeks to discourage is actively recognised as problematic.

Take it from someone who's worked in this field before, it's a very complicated issue but it's good that its being tackled.

Edit -
Just to add some more points for the sake of discussion/argument, Ghost Heat would work better if it applied differently on a chassis by chassis basis. I know its convoluted as all hell, but here's my reasoning in a few quick points.

- Want to Ac20 Jager? fine but you're getting the penalty. If the King Crab ever makes it out, Ac20 cap increased to two, that thing needs to be able to portray it's power and the best way to do that would be to give the urban focused 100 tonner the ability to fire it's ac20's at once, afterall, it's likely it will often have short engagement windows only.

- SRM boat mediums? ye, let them do it, afterall they need some advantages. Catapults and Stalkers however? Nah, all those missiles come out of only a couple of launchers, rather than 4-5, make the heat stack.

- Swayback alpha? Probably allow it, after all it's all the variant has going for it.

- Awesome PPC alpha upped to 3 - allow it to make up for the chassis's glaring weaknesses.

- Jagermech light AC boating - allow it, it's what the platform is designed for.


So this pretty much just expands on the variant quirk concept to something we would all agree has a little more value than an x increase in turn rate or torso twist value. After all, alpha striking is a big deal in Mechwarrior, let the weaker chassis that suffer from art related game play imbalance (no offense to the art team here, you guys make great looking mechs, but not all mechs are, or can be, created equal) have more leeway in the weapons department.

Edited by sj mausgmr, 15 October 2013 - 05:34 AM.

[Noth]

FupDup, on 15 October 2013 - 04:11 AM, said:

Is this build a boat?

What about this one?

Or this one?

Or this one?


Why are the mixed builds I posted above getting ghost heat penalties? Kind of breaks your argument.

They are mixed builds and I see people do extremely well with similar builds. Heck I've seen a 4 ERLL stalker tear up games, and he said he didn't even notice the ghost heat penalty (alpha striking on most shots).

The heavy metal will be fine if you don't alpha strike all the time. The Victor 9B triple AC/2 isn't affected much at all by the ghost heat. The Stalker build runs hot as many stalker builds do. You simply don't alpha strike with it and you'll be fine. The Jager build can chain fire the missiles and be 100% fine with no ghost heat. It is almost as if you just want to be able to alpha strike and not have to actually put thought into what weapon you fire when.

[Karl Streiger]

Ghost Heat and the penatly is funny:
The 6 MLAS explanation for the Hunchback - i have to admit i think that is a faulty explanation - the real explanation was:
because a ghost heat was limited to 6 MLAS because the Jenner 3F has 6 of them (you know the same Jenner that was used to explain why DHS don't work in general wit 2.0 - but its one of the few design that does not have a problem with that)

When 3 PPCs got Ghost Heat - so have every MLAS above 4.

I really hate that ghost heat above 3 LRM racks above medium size.

I can accept that Ghost Heat did some really good to the game - but that doesn't keep me from condemn it.

[Sir Ratburger]

sj mausgmr, on 15 October 2013 - 04:48 AM, said:

The heat penalty system does it's job of discouraging, not preventing players from certain key alpha strike mechanics, and whilst it's far from perfect (the community is doing a great job of proving how much of a crutch alpha striking has always been to most mechwarrior players), it is a system that tackles the problem, to a degree. This is a complicated topic bound to upset some people regardless of how it was approached, what matters here is that it's the mechanic it seeks to discourage is actively recognised as problematic.

Take it from someone who's worked in this field before, it's a very complicated issue but it's good that its being tackled.

Edit -
Just to add some more points for the sake of discussion/argument, Ghost Heat would work better if it applied differently on a chassis by chassis basis. I know its convoluted as all hell, but here's my reasoning in a few quick points.

- Want to Ac20 Jager? fine but you're getting the penalty. If the King Crab ever makes it out, Ac20 cap increased to two, that thing needs to be able to portray it's power and the best way to do that would be to give the urban focused 100 tonner the ability to fire it's ac20's at once, afterall, it's likely it will often have short engagement windows only.

- SRM boat mediums? ye, let them do it, afterall they need some advantages. Catapults and Stalkers however? Nah, all those missiles come out of only a couple of launchers, rather than 4-5, make the heat stack.

- Swayback alpha? Probably allow it, after all it's all the variant has going for it.

- Awesome PPC alpha upped to 3 - allow it to make up for the chassis's glaring weaknesses.

- Jagermech light AC boating - allow it, it's what the platform is designed for.


So this pretty much just expands on the variant quirk concept to something we would all agree has a little more value than an x increase in turn rate or torso twist value. After all, alpha striking is a big deal in Mechwarrior, let the weaker chassis that suffer from art related game play imbalance (no offense to the art team here, you guys make great looking mechs, but not all mechs are, or can be, created equal) have more leeway in the weapons department.

Good ideas and definately on the right track, you still suggest keeping ghost heat though which I completely disagree with, it needs scrapping completely.

[AC]

culverin, on 13 October 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

You are on track.

Ghost heat is a broken mechanic that does never needed to exist.

Heat, weight and crits and ammo and heatsink requirements already balance out a mech design.


It was made to manage multi-weapon pinpoint alphas which should never have existed to begin with.
We have that issue because of
1. Perfect weapon convergence.
2. Lack of a punishing heat scale.



I support the removal of ghost heat 100%.

With the force of a locomotive.

Actually, All the high alpha pinpoint damage comes from the broken slot system. Add critical size restrictions to each slot and watch all the problems go away.

PGI has clung to this broken generic slot system for too long. It causes many of the mechs to be the same and not provide any incentive to purchase new ones. It also makes many of the signature mechs like the hunchie and awesome have no purpose because other generic designs can do it better. (The Treb makes a better hunchie, and the stalker makes a better awesome) On top of that, it breaks cannon designs by penalizing them. The Awesome takes a hit, the jaggers, the hunchie 4P, Kintaros... and I am sure the list will grow as time goes on.

Then to keep the broken slot system, PGI releases Ghost Heat, Gauss Delay, and JJ shake. Who knows what other systems they will have to release to limp along the generic slot system. I know that some ppl what to keep the generic slots because they feel it would limit them, but honestly... how often do you see the 6PPC stalker anymore with the Ghost Heat? You are already being limited. I would prefer to have a few more slot restrictions and eliminate all the convoluted balance mechanics PGI added in.

Edited by AC, 15 October 2013 - 05:55 AM.

[East Indy]

Quote

If you all are so 'pro' it wouldn't have affected you

Players who complain about heat penalties essentially have themselves to blame for it. It's a brute-force check on violating the spirit of BattleTech by trying to two-shot opponents. This happens all the time in PvP games: developers don't try to be elegant; they try to stop gimmicky gameplay ASAP.

[General Taskeen]

These are considered boats, and they are an evil upon the Mech Warrior Race and the most overpowered builds and Mechs in the game:

AWS-8Q

• The 8Q is so much of a boat, with 3 PPC's and 28 SHS, that PGI purposely built heat sinks the way they are so it would lose
  
• The 8Q is so much of a boat, that PPC's were given 0 damage below 90m
  
• The 8Q was very Over Powered, and needed to be Nerfed.
  
• Note Here - Firing 3 PPC's, then 1 PPC was possible in other Mech Warrior games, since the the threshold was lower (how its supposed to be) (it was never possible to get away with 4-6 at once of these and not shut down, unlike MWO)

AWS-9M

• The 9M is also evil, nerfed by PGI heatsinks. Runs hotter than the Sun.
  
• Note here - 2 ER PPC, then 1 ER PPC was possible in other Mech Warrior games, since the threshold was lower (how its supposed to be) (it was never possible to get away with firing 3+ of these and not shut down, unlike MWO)

HBK-4P

• Nerf Needed - so heat sink design, + ghost heat happened

Edited by General Taskeen, 15 October 2013 - 06:49 AM.

[HammerSwarm]

My suggestion involves a constantly regenerating action point system to limit actions per second. It's not perfect, but neither is ghost heat.

http://mwomercs.com/...-to-ghost-heat/