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Ghost Heat A Lazy Balance Mechanic.


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#61 keith

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 05:33 PM

View PostPht, on 15 October 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

What I find very disturbing about this... is that here we are, rightly discussing ghost heat; complaining about it ... and yet the DEVS have stated in one of the NGNG podcasts that one of their ways of seeing if something they've done is balanced ... is that they look on the forums to see if people are complaining about it ... and if nobody's complaining about what they did, they suspect something is wrong with what they've done.


How, if this really is one of their "metrics," can ANYONE actually demonstrate - and I mean "demonstrate" in the sense the word is used in geometry ... that something is messed up to them?



took the devs how long to fix ecm? 6+ months. everyone and i mean everyone said it was OP or it needed to be changed in someway. that was 6 months just to get the base ecm changed, took them even longer to get it fully balanced, more along a year. pgi are not good devs.

#62 Pht

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 05:43 PM

View Postkeith, on 15 October 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

pgi are not good devs.


Let's presume just for the sake of argument that you conclusion is right (even though your premises you listed don't require it) ... How does your stating this help?

I mean, besides being cahtartic for you and possibly some other players?

#63 Homeless Bill

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 06:16 PM

3xPPC + 1xGR --> 2xPPC + 2xUAC/5. The difference is massive. Also, still waiting on a 3xGR assault to **** everything up again.

=[

#64 NextGame

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 11:30 PM

View PostNoth, on 15 October 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:



Preventing diversity? I see much more diversity in the game now that ghost heat is here. I see mixed builds, I see poptarts, I see AC boats, I see LRM boats. I see far more builds regularly than I ever did before.


Don't know what game you are playing, but it doesn't seem to be the same one I am. I just see brawling mechs with a trending towards favouring ballistics, with a rare something else chucked in, end of story.

#65 Karl Streiger

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 12:02 AM

View PostNextGame, on 15 October 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

Don't know what game you are playing, but it doesn't seem to be the same one I am. I just see brawling mechs with a trending towards favouring ballistics, with a rare something else chucked in, end of story.

With all the BattleMasters and Thunderbolts people start "leveling" soon - I'm waiting for the first lasers are OP posts.

Although I'm pretty sure that some people without any idea of aestehtic and the lack of style - will use a T-Bolt or a BattleMaster with AC5s or AC2s

Edited by Karl Streiger, 16 October 2013 - 12:03 AM.


#66 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:10 AM

View PostFupDup, on 15 October 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

All the cool kids are doin' it.

I see what you did there.

---

Also; i actually doubt that Quad PPC Stalkers were really stopped by Ghost Heat.

When you give up on boating, scared of g host heat, what do you do? Equip 2 PPCs and 2 LLs? So you can't alpha-fire anymore, right?

So why not stay with 4 PPCs, and fire two alphas with a time delay?

I think the real reason we see a lot less (ER) PPCs is that PPCs suddenly produce 2 heat more per shot, and ER PPCs suddenly produce 4 more heat per shot. That's what is limiting the viability of PPC heavy builds across the board. Now, you overheat faster, and probably just enough faster that you don't squeeze enough damage out of your heat threshold anymore.

Of course, there is a psychological component to ghost heat, but practically speaking, it is far less relevant to the power level of the PPC than the increase in base heat.

#67 Tombstoner

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 08:12 AM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 16 October 2013 - 01:10 AM, said:

I see what you did there.

---

Also; i actually doubt that Quad PPC Stalkers were really stopped by Ghost Heat.

When you give up on boating, scared of g host heat, what do you do? Equip 2 PPCs and 2 LLs? So you can't alpha-fire anymore, right?

So why not stay with 4 PPCs, and fire two alphas with a time delay?

I think the real reason we see a lot less (ER) PPCs is that PPCs suddenly produce 2 heat more per shot, and ER PPCs suddenly produce 4 more heat per shot. That's what is limiting the viability of PPC heavy builds across the board. Now, you overheat faster, and probably just enough faster that you don't squeeze enough damage out of your heat threshold anymore.

Of course, there is a psychological component to ghost heat, but practically speaking, it is far less relevant to the power level of the PPC than the increase in base heat.


Clan tech will change this with smaller DHS and the effect 50% more damage will have on game play will be problematic to say the least. I gave up on this game because i cant see how a unified system can be hammered out of this fubar. short term solution with no long term outlook. whack a mole game design.

#68 Almond Brown

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:10 AM

View PostGeneral Taskeen, on 15 October 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:


It is a bandaid to their heat system, instead of redoing their heat system. The only reason high-alpha exists is purely due to heatsinks being able to raise your threshold.

So what it comes down to is this - what was easier for PGI to accomplish, redoing their heat system, or applying a stop-gap?

Since they said doing the "low threshold, high heat dissipation" didn't work (which we are not allowed to test), even though other Mech Warrior games did make it work, then the first option would logically be the best choice for redoing it instead of fixing what doesn't work, what they have currently.


And that is your opinion. If you do not believe what the Developer say when they make a particular call, then so be it. Expecting to get to Test every new system the Forumites might think up is also ludicrous.

I think your issue is your Playing MWO but apparently want to play MW4. That is still doable btw.

As I said, The Armchair Dev's always know best, could never be wrong and yet could not code themselves out of a wet set of Bytes.

As noted before by others, don't like it? make your own or move on. The constant whining is ruining the cheese. And yes, it is well known. You stay only because you care... (cough BS cough)

Edited by Almond Brown, 16 October 2013 - 09:11 AM.


#69 Pht

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 12:32 PM

View PostTombstoner, on 16 October 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:


Clan tech will change this with smaller DHS and the effect 50% more damage will have on game play will be problematic to say the least.


The PGI guys have already said in NGNG that they're going to adjust clan-tech down to the point that it won't be significantly more desirable than IS tech.

Or, in shorter form, clantech won't be clantech. It'll just have that name.

Quote

I gave up on this game because i cant see how a unified system can be hammered out of this fubar. short term solution with no long term outlook. whack a mole game design.


It's possible... or would be, if Russ actually thought the idea of something other than perfect convergence under the reticule on all weapons of same velocity fired at the same time was fun.

Until Russ gets over the idea that any other combat system isn't fun, and Bryan recognizes that the 'mechs have not been well simulated, the only thing that will fix all of these problems is off the table.

#70 Lupus Aurelius

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 01:48 PM

Ghost heat was a lazy fix, because it does not address the true root causes to eliminate boating high alpha builds: convergence, heat system overall, and nigh unto omnimech fitting capability. Convergence should be a simple fix, to randomize hit locations based on distance, the others are a bit more complex:

View PostLupus Aurelius, on 07 October 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:


Currently, MWO mechs function more like omni-mechs, with the ability to fit way beyond what the original balancing concepts of BattleTech and MW computer games. Heatsinks remain badly broken, as well as the whole heat system, allowing for builds that can fire indefinitely without ever overheating. A variety of mechs are being fitted with weapon systems they never would have been able to before, a good example is the Dual AC20 Catapult, whereas the 2 ballistic spots originally were machine guns.

It still boils down to these two items that have been brought up for a long time now. Heat and the fitting mechanics.

Heat:

Currently, heatsinks add heat levels to a mech, as well as heat dissipation speed. This encouraged use of lower heat-high damage builds. Dual to quad AC5 and UAC5 builds that deliver pinpoint damage at range with almost no heat now rule. In the past, it was the 4-6 PPC Stalker, or the 6 LL Stalker, jump sniping PPC/Gauss Highlanders, the list goes on. But the real issue here has always been HPS – how much damage can you put out for as long as possible. Instead, heat should be handled as follows:
  • -Each Mech has a base heat amount, unique for the most part, with bigger mechs having better heat than lighter ones.
  • -Engines are not only rated by speed but also by heat level, larger engines having better heat than smaller ones. This would be an interesting mechanic, do you go for a larger engine for more speed and heat, but less firepower, or a smaller engine to save weight and add firepower, but with less heat?
  • -Heat sinks do not add more heat level to the mech, they merely increase the heat dissipation rate, so the more heatsinks you have, the faster the heat dissipates. DHS at that point can actually be "double" single heat sinks, and there would actually be a reason at times to use single heat sinks.
High heat alphas would have been reduced to 1 possible with an immediate shutdown, and possibly internal heat damage, with the above mechanic. Also, it would allow for a more balanced heat rating for weapons, instead of AC5/UAC5 doing 1 heat every 1.5 secs vs ERPPCs doing 15 heat every 4 seconds. Ballistics would still have lower heat, but the ability to fire multiple ballistics at one time continuously could also be curtailed.


Heat handled per the above would also reduce the use of alphas to a "last resort" type of maneuver, since doing more than 1, or possible 2, alphas would shut down almost any mech. Now it would be an issue of how to deliver damage over time instead of all at once, making the games longer with more variety of tactics.

Weapon Hardpoints:

Until the introduction of omni-tech to the IS, there were the stock models only. Modifications cost dearly, and also could be the source for significant issues in running a mech. That’s fine for tabletop, but in a computer game, you want people to have some ability to customize their ride. But the current mechanics make all mechs basically omni-mechs. So long as there are open criticals in that location and you have the tonnage, you can fit any of that type of weapon in that location, up to the quantity limit.

Instead,hardpoints should not open to all the crits in that location. Besides the number of weapons of that type, there also needs to be a limit as to the number of crits that can be used for those weapon types. All of the crit slots in that location would no longer be able to fit that weapon type. So, having 3 energy on a right torso might mean there were only 6 energy crits there. You could fit 3 large lasers, 2 PPCs but not 3 PPCs, or a PPC/LL/ML. Same for ballistics and missiles, 2 ballistics in an arm, but only 5 ballistic slots, so you could fir 2 AC2, an AC2 and an AC5, but not 2 AC5s. Similar to the way it was in MW4.

These 2 mechanics combined would remove a lot of the boating issues, and actually force balanced builds. It would also make each mech more unique, giving more variety for lance compositions and not just seeing the same handful of mechs all the time, boating whatever the FOTM is. Chasis with heavy energy build would have higher base heat, so mech like the Awesome would actualy be able to do what it was designed for, be a PPC platform, Mechs with heavy ballistic builds might have lower heat, but more crit space for ballistic weapons. It would make each mech more unique, as well as more balanced in relation to each other. And also would help eliminate the ridiculous balancing by nerfing or adding unnecessary mechanics..

Approaching the historical issues by addressing the root causes, such as convergence, the heat system in general, and the fitting mechanics would have addressed those issues in a more accurate way. However, under the current mechanics, PGI is balancing by heat, therefore the premise of the OP.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 17 October 2013 - 02:24 PM.


#71 Tombstoner

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:55 AM

View PostPht, on 17 October 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:


The PGI guys have already said in NGNG that they're going to adjust clan-tech down to the point that it won't be significantly more desirable than IS tech.

Or, in shorter form, clantech won't be clantech. It'll just have that name.



It's possible... or would be, if Russ actually thought the idea of something other than perfect convergence under the reticule on all weapons of same velocity fired at the same time was fun.

Until Russ gets over the idea that any other combat system isn't fun, and Bryan recognizes that the 'mechs have not been well simulated, the only thing that will fix all of these problems is off the table.


I think they're in love with the system because its a direct marketing strategy targeted at people who get there *** handed to them in games that have COF. "I want to hit what i aim at damit... this game sucks" realism be damned, followed by its a giant robot game not reality. also the M1A1 abrams tank has pin point targeting on rough terrain going 50 mph and thats 1990 tech. MW is 3050 ish so its got to be better.

If what they do with clan tech happens along the lines of 1 ton lighter with 1 more point of heat and damage with 10% less range drop off relative to IS. then just shelve the whole weapons design and make something completely new that works for magical levels of accuracy and arbitrary drop off rates and WTF mech scaling / hit box allocation. Don't stick to cannon some of the time and toss it out when its needed.

In some ways i regret canceling my phoenix package and giving up on this game, but i couldn't take it " the dev team" any more. They clearly stated this game's not for me and i hung in there and it turns out they're right.

#72 Amsro

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:04 AM

Successful troll is Successful, that is all Ghost Heat is trolling the 9Mlas HBK and "other" builds that had NO business being nerfed.

There is NO rational reason to keep Ghost Heat in the game, the PPC meta was fixed with SRM2.0 (still needs a buff) and 10/15 heat. Ghost Heat did nothing positive.

#73 EvilCow

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:19 AM

View PostAmsro, on 18 October 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

Ghost Heat did nothing positive.


Actually it did something positive for me but unrelated to this game.

#74 MisterFiveSeven

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:35 AM

View PostFupDup, on 15 October 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

Speaking of the Clans, I don't think GH would even work on them. Primarily, lock-on missiles like LRMs and SSRMs don't get hurt nearly as much as direct-fire because they almost aim themselves in a way. For Clan LRMs, since they lack a min range, you'll be able to just set on chain-fire and go to town with a few LRM20 racks in a brawl without much consequence. SSRMs will be able to do similar but for less damage and more spread out. Setting the max alpha to 1 for those weapons won't have much of a negative impact on their performance due to their tracking systems.


Fup you just rocked my world.

Clan LRM's and SSRM's are almost identical. What you were saying earlier for streaks would also work for LRM's (at short range the chain firing doesn't hurt as bad from AMS/time to get under cover/etc.).

All streaks and LRM's, one weapon group. Chain fire until nothing is moving, rinse and repeat. Hell, maybe even group them right up against the boating limit; double the missiles, double the fun!

Jesus, you may have just opened my eyes to how ****** our missle mechanics actually are... think about it. You just broke the game brah

Edited by MisterFiveSeven, 18 October 2013 - 08:38 AM.


#75 RolfS

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 09:12 AM

View PostNextGame, on 13 October 2013 - 11:52 PM, said:

ghost heat is a direct nerf to fun, and an assault against logic and critical thinking

Absolutely true. I could create a better "balance" closer to the original battletech in less than two weeks, assuming of course I had access to decent automatic testing scripts of the game balance.
Its in the testing where PGI is failing. For instance the AC DPS damage is reversed on all cannons, something no automatic testing could miss.
If they had more people with some skill working at PGI this game would not be where it is today.

#76 nehebkau

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 10:24 AM

PGI's implementation of Heat is so frigging bad it boggles my mind. Ghost heat is just an extension of that. The reality is that energy weapons are a 'second choice' weapon now. The thing that really wracks my brain is the new variants they come out with that have a high energy weapon bent but are made useless by their 'stellar' heat system.

I understand heat, I've even gotten a gun bright-red hot myself and have been around an operating industrial laser. But this {Scrap} is bad for game-play and overall enjoyment.

#77 Amsro

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 12:19 PM

The true sad part is even with all this layered mess, you can see a glimmer of hope in the game. Imagine how amazing it would be with some logical changes put in place.

#78 The Justicar

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 12:24 PM

View Postsj mausgmr, on 15 October 2013 - 04:48 AM, said:

The heat penalty system does it's job of discouraging, not preventing players from certain key alpha strike mechanics, and whilst it's far from perfect (the community is doing a great job of proving how much of a crutch alpha striking has always been to most mechwarrior players), it is a system that tackles the problem, to a degree. This is a complicated topic bound to upset some people regardless of how it was approached, what matters here is that it's the mechanic it seeks to discourage is actively recognised as problematic.

Take it from someone who's worked in this field before, it's a very complicated issue but it's good that its being tackled.

Edit -
Just to add some more points for the sake of discussion/argument, Ghost Heat would work better if it applied differently on a chassis by chassis basis. I know its convoluted as all hell, but here's my reasoning in a few quick points.

- Want to Ac20 Jager? fine but you're getting the penalty. If the King Crab ever makes it out, Ac20 cap increased to two, that thing needs to be able to portray it's power and the best way to do that would be to give the urban focused 100 tonner the ability to fire it's ac20's at once, afterall, it's likely it will often have short engagement windows only.

- SRM boat mediums? ye, let them do it, afterall they need some advantages. Catapults and Stalkers however? Nah, all those missiles come out of only a couple of launchers, rather than 4-5, make the heat stack.

- Swayback alpha? Probably allow it, after all it's all the variant has going for it.

- Awesome PPC alpha upped to 3 - allow it to make up for the chassis's glaring weaknesses.

- Jagermech light AC boating - allow it, it's what the platform is designed for.


So this pretty much just expands on the variant quirk concept to something we would all agree has a little more value than an x increase in turn rate or torso twist value. After all, alpha striking is a big deal in Mechwarrior, let the weaker chassis that suffer from art related game play imbalance (no offense to the art team here, you guys make great looking mechs, but not all mechs are, or can be, created equal) have more leeway in the weapons department.


Its not complexity that's the issue, its just broken. Why make it 10 times more complicated with all that {Scrap} you suggested just to "fix" it? Ghost heat isn't just imperfect, it is utterly completely stupid.

Here's how you fix heat:

Cap heat at 30 (or 35 or 40, who cares)
Make SHS increase heat dissipation at current values, maybe increase cap by like .5 per
Make DHS true toubles without increasing cap.
Remove heat cap from pilot tree
Remove broken as hell ghost heat

And ONLY THEN do you fully balance weapon cooldowns and heat.

Edited by The Justicar, 18 October 2013 - 12:33 PM.


#79 The Justicar

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 12:28 PM

View PostGroovYChickeN, on 15 October 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

Ghost heat is fine as long as they make it on a PER MECH basis not across the board.

This also would allow mech that are currently lacking in the game to have a place to shine.

Let the Awesome be the only effective PPC boat.


I wish there was a downvote option. NO. NO. NO. HELL NO. Why make it worse? Just remove the bloody mechanic! Its broken and terrible and doesn't even fix the damned problem. It fixes the SYMPTOM of the problem.

CAP HEAT. INCREASE DISSIPATION. SIMPLE.

#80 AC

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 01:01 PM

View PostThe Justicar, on 18 October 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:


Its not complexity that's the issue, its just broken. Why make it 10 times more complicated with all that {Scrap} you suggested just to "fix" it? Ghost heat isn't just imperfect, it is utterly completely stupid.

Here's how you fix heat:

Cap heat at 30 (or 35 or 40, who cares)
Make SHS increase heat dissipation at current values, maybe increase cap by like .5 per
Make DHS true toubles without increasing cap.
Remove heat cap from pilot tree
Remove broken as hell ghost heat

And ONLY THEN do you fully balance weapon cooldowns and heat.



I can get behind those suggestions as long as PGI adds some limit to the mech slots. The omni mech design of the chassis is helping no one. It just allows us to build flavor of the month builds and break balance. They should have tied a critical size limiter to each weapon slot. This would have created more realistic mech builds while still providing us plenty of creativity in our builds.





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