121 replies to this topic

[Wispsy]

Why would you ever bring a light or medium when you are attacking...


Other then tonnage limits forcing people to be easy kills.

What kind of "role" will they be expected to play in CW when the enemy is obviously going to be defending their base so no scouting required...

[OneEyed Jack]

Perhaps it won't be a straightforward attack/defense of a single point?

Honestly, they probably just didn't consider it, but we can hope.

[mike29tw]

Perhaps there will be more than one bases to capture/defend?

[Joseph Mallan]

Wispsy, on 25 October 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

Why would you ever bring a light or medium when you are attacking...


Other then tonnage limits forcing people to be easy kills.

What kind of "role" will they be expected to play in CW when the enemy is obviously going to be defending their base so no scouting required...

Flanking force?
Cavalry force?
Heavy Scouts?

Do you need more?

[Wispsy]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 October 2013 - 01:55 AM, said:

Flanking force?
Cavalry force?
Heavy Scouts?

Do you need more?

Yes...ok....so....the enemy team is entrenched in their base. They have to defend it so they are not going to leave, you have to get in there and attack it. What use is a light mech who is not made for combat? Flank what? Scout what? They will be entrenched in a defensive position around their base...You think it is good to send in Cavalry to a line of Heavy Pikemen which is what sending lights into assaults will be...

mike29tw, on 25 October 2013 - 01:34 AM, said:

Perhaps there will be more than one bases to capture/defend?

Attack/Defend conquest style?

[Joseph Mallan]

Wispsy, on 25 October 2013 - 02:01 AM, said:

Yes...ok....so....the enemy team is entrenched in their base. They have to defend it so they are not going to leave, you have to get in there and attack it. What use is a light mech who is not made for combat? Flank what? Scout what? They will be entrenched in a defensive position around their base...You think it is good to send in Cavalry to a line of Heavy Pikemen which is what sending lights into assaults will be...



Attack/Defend conquest style?

Have you been playing the same game as me? I have seen plenty of Lights designed for hit an fade combat. Scouts are not worth as much in PUGs I will concede, but in 4-12 mans... they are very valuable.

Cav hits Pikemen from the side while the main force is engaging them... Win!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 25 October 2013 - 02:09 AM.

[Wispsy]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 October 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

Have you been playing the same game as me? I have seen plenty of Lights designed for hit an fade combat. Scouts are not worth as much in PUGs I will concede, but in 4-12 mans... they are very valuable.

I think we have been playing different games...

So...you have to attack...you know where they will be, they have zero reason to leave...defender obviously wins if attacker does not attack, obviously best defense is as many poptarts as heavy as you can make them. Light mechs will be 1shot if they try and "hit and fade"....Light mechs, as the forum often points out, are not designed for combat. Right now they are used to cap base and defend cap if you push massively far from your base and their lights base cap... This and scouting generally seem to be accepted as the roles "light mechs" should fill. Both of these roles are completely useless in an Attack/Defend game mode.


So why...would you bring a medium or a light instead of taking a heavy or assault in their place? Like at all? Ever?


As in the first post...please tonnage limits is not a reason, it is just forcing a certain number of the team into being free kill spectators. Might as well just put it back to 8v8 and remove tonnage limits...same game.

Edited by Wispsy, 25 October 2013 - 02:21 AM.

[Mr 144]

Why pose the question to just the attacking force? The same question goes for the defending force as well, as who cares where they're coming from...tank the base....

Two answer I can see.

#1 (The PGI way...aka borked and easy)
Same maps and points as conquest, just with an altered red/blue mechanic for capturing forcing movement by both teams.

#2 (we can dare to dream)
Interactive Turrets,etc. for both attackers and defenders. With tonnage limits, lights/mediums need to be able to move from point to point to man these turrets and keep them 'activated' effeciently...something heavies cannot do as efficiently, nor would you want the firepower loss using a heavy/assault. This would give lighter chassis a role and 'fun' being a force multiplier.

I'm betting a really simple modified conquest...

[Joseph Mallan]

4-6 Medium lasers are not for combat??

So be sure to have Arty an air strikes to punish them for playing static.

Wispsy, PopTarting should not be possible as it is not in Canon (with the exception of maybe 1-5 characters total), Turtle defensive play is a thing that each unit will just have to figure out. Your enemy does not have to play by your rules so sit down with your friends and try and try again. None of this counts right now its merely practice for CW(the real game).

Get yourself dirty loses some K/D ratio an find out what is going to work for you and our allies.

[Alistair Winter]

I think a lot of fans are expecting to see some kind of scenario with a fortress under siege, where the defenders are aided by AI-controlled turrets and the attackers need to blast their way through reinforced gates to win the battle.

Looking at how PGI operates, it seems more likely that one side will have 3 conquest-type bases and the defenders will have to defend all of them for x amount of time. I'm guessing the defender needs to defend at least 2 to win, and the match ends when all bases are held by the attackers. That's it.

People need to lower their expectations. We're still fighting over these, and on all the same maps.

[Wispsy]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 October 2013 - 02:26 AM, said:

4-6 Medium lasers are not for combat??

So be sure to have Arty an air strikes to punish them for playing static.

Wispsy, PopTarting should not be possible as it is not in Canon (with the exception of maybe 1-5 characters total), Turtle defensive play is a thing that each unit will just have to figure out. Your enemy does not have to play by your rules so sit down with your friends and try and try again. None of this counts right now its merely practice for CW(the real game).

Get yourself dirty loses some K/D ratio an find out what is going to work for you and our allies.

Right but this is how the game is right now....medium lasers are for combat but light mechs are not, general forum consensus it seems on these forums as well as in gameplay.


If you were attacking a force that knows they do not have to move...why would they not bring 12 highlanders?

If you send mediums into 12 highlanders what is going to happen...they will get shot and killed almost instantly, if they can even manage to somehow sneak into the enemy base with the whole team around. Even if they are already engaged unless they are getting wrecked by your highlanders....they will be going in with no advantage against people with more damage and more armour.

I mean the only mechs of use in attack/defend are going to be assaults and maybe heavies unless it is some kind of weird conquest style thing. needing all 5 bases, if you need just 2 you can cover that on all of the maps we have currently without needing anything faster then an assault.

Forcing tonnage limits on this, just basically means some of the team get to influence the match maybe 1 in 10 times and mostly just wait for the assaults to finish duking it out then either win or get cleaned up depending on how they do.

Alistair I am assuming it will be on the current maps, if they did actually get some kind of fortress position it would be even sicker.

[Mr 144]

Alistair Winter, on 25 October 2013 - 02:39 AM, said:

People need to lower their expectations.

My expectations from PGI could not get any lower. Giant Stompy Robot time killer....forevermore....

[dario03]

Like others have said maybe there will be multiple cap points. Maybe it will be like conquest or maybe it will be like conquest mixed with assault. Where theres multiple cap points but they work like in assault so only the attackers actually move the bars, the defenders will have to defend the spots but even if its just them on the point it won't refill. You could set it up so that if the attackers take a certain number of points (doesn't have to be all) in a certain amount of time they win. Both teams would probably want some fast mechs then.

[Viges]

Wow lights started to whine already? hilarious
You know what? I want a game mode where there will be NO LIGHTS at all. Because Im sick how broken they are. They dominate conquest, they can fight in assault and then just go and capwin. So I want at least one game mode where the only option is to FIGHT. If you cant be useful in that kind of mode - you are bad light mech pilot and should stay playing capwarrior, because right now lights can kill all other mechs AND cap at the same time.

[Joseph Mallan]

Wispsy, on 25 October 2013 - 02:44 AM, said:

Right but this is how the game is right now....medium lasers are for combat but light mechs are not, general forum consensus it seems on these forums as well as in gameplay.

Sooooo You can't/won't think or yourself?

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If you were attacking a force that knows they do not have to move...why would they not bring 12 highlanders?

Are you expecting the game/players to not do that once CW comes? I would think Murphy's would defend their holding with the best force they have. Cause it's ours and if you want to take it... Come and get it. Why should I play any other way than that now? Why do I have to give you a chance to take whats mine?

If I am coming to take what is yours Military doctrine is to bring 3x the known enemy numbers/mass... to ensure victory. We say we want to play at war but then refuse to accept what war is.

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If you send mediums into 12 highlanders what is going to happen...they will get shot and killed almost instantly, if they can even manage to somehow sneak into the enemy base with the whole team around. Even if they are already engaged unless they are getting wrecked by your highlanders....they will be going in with no advantage against people with more damage and more armour.

So how do you propose we run units like Zeta Battalion of Wolf's Dragoons? TT Rules for the unit read that they only use the heavy and assault random tables when generating forces? So if you are facing a unit that heavy and powerful, in mediums expect to get rolled OR accept that you killed 2 of them as a stunning success!

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I mean the only mechs of use in attack/defend are going to be assaults and maybe heavies unless it is some kind of weird conquest style thing. needing all 5 bases, if you need just 2 you can cover that on all of the maps we have currently without needing anything faster then an assault.

Unless you are running a raid. One side attacks one side defends. Heavies draw fire, lights sneak in and out, then back to Allied base to win.

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Forcing tonnage limits on this, just basically means some of the team get to influence the match maybe 1 in 10 times and mostly just wait for the assaults to finish duking it out then either win or get cleaned up depending on how they do.

Not sure what you mean here?

[Alistair Winter]

@Wispsy: I guess the answer to your question is "defender needs to protect 2 or 3 different bases", so having 12 highlanders means you may have a hard time if the attacker sends 12 mechs to a single base, taking out 1/3 of the defending mechs.

One thing is for damn sure: PGI will probably try to invent some new game mode, instead of just imitating something that has already worked in countless other games. And we will end up with a reinvented wheel the shape of a pear, and there will be much QQ. They honestly seem to think that the current game modes are better than what other FPS games have, and my guess is that they will keep trying to be original in the future.

Viges, on 25 October 2013 - 02:59 AM, said:

right now lights can kill all other mechs AND cap at the same time.

Show us how it's done, chief. Show us how easy it is.

[Joseph Mallan]

Alistair Winter, on 25 October 2013 - 03:08 AM, said:

@Wispsy: I guess the answer to your question is "defender needs to protect 2 or 3 different bases", so having 12 highlanders means you may have a hard time if the attacker sends 12 mechs to a single base, taking out 1/3 of the defending mechs.

One thing is for damn sure: PGI will probably try to invent some new game mode, instead of just imitating something that has already worked in countless other games. And we will end up with a reinvented wheel the shape of a pear, and there will be much QQ. They honestly seem to think that the current game modes are better than what other FPS games have, and my guess is that they will keep trying to be original in the future.


Show us how it's done, chief. Show us how easy it is.

PGI would do well to get some help with scenario building.

[Wispsy]

Joseph.... I am well aware then people will bring 12 highlanders given the option. I am asking for some kind of reason they would not.

So far, we have:
-If it happens to be exactly like current Conquest, which seems unlikely but possible and that would be much more balanced then if it is based on Assault, which seems more likely given the title. It is "attack defend" if you start the enemy at a base of their own equal distance from the other bases...well it is basically Conquest and not very much like "attacking these guys defending".
-If it happens to be a raid in which light mechs sneak out some random thing out of the enemy base. This item then allows your team control of the planet? k...

Alistair Winter, on 25 October 2013 - 03:08 AM, said:

@Wispsy: I guess the answer to your question is "defender needs to protect 2 or 3 different bases", so having 12 highlanders means you may have a hard time if the attacker sends 12 mechs to a single base, taking out 1/3 of the defending mechs.

One thing is for damn sure: PGI will probably try to invent some new game mode, instead of just imitating something that has already worked in countless other games. And we will end up with a reinvented wheel the shape of a pear, and there will be much QQ. They honestly seem to think that the current game modes are better than what other FPS games have, and my guess is that they will keep trying to be original in the future.

2 bases you can just keep all people close to the one with the best vision of another, it would be weird as well not starting at a base of your own. 12 highlanders will just destroy anybody coming to either. 3 bases would basically mean the exact same as conquest...which ok would give lights a role but would not be a new game mode...

So what if Attack/Defend is not Conquest mode. What if you actually have to defend a base and the other team has to attack it...lights have any roles?



Edit: Keep in mind they have stated this is going to be the main gameplay mode in CW, so it is important if only 1 maybe 2 mech classes have a role to fill and the rest are just fillers.

Edited by Wispsy, 25 October 2013 - 03:19 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Wispsy, on 25 October 2013 - 03:18 AM, said:

Joseph.... I am well aware then people will bring 12 highlanders given the option. I am asking for some kind of reason they would not.

So far, we have:
-If it happens to be exactly like current Conquest, which seems unlikely but possible and that would be much more balanced then if it is based on Assault, which seems more likely given the title. It is "attack defend" if you start the enemy at a base of their own equal distance from the other bases...well it is basically Conquest and not very much like "attacking these guys defending".
-If it happens to be a raid in which light mechs sneak out some random thing out of the enemy base. This item then allows your team control of the planet? k...






2 bases you can just keep all people close to the one with the best vision of another, it would be weird as well not starting at a base of your own. 12 highlanders will just destroy anybody coming to either. 3 bases would basically mean the exact same as conquest...which ok would give lights a role but would not be a new game mode...

So what if Attack/Defend is not Conquest mode. What if you actually have to defend a base and the other team has to attack it...lights have any roles?



Edit: Keep in mind they have stated this is going to be the main gameplay mode in CW, so it is important if only 1 maybe 2 mech classes have a role to fill and the rest are just fillers.

I guess the question becomes what will YOU do? I don't have a Highlander, I do have 2 Atlases and a Orion and a Sara. So I know I will not be bringing a Highlander any time soon.

[Wispsy]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 October 2013 - 03:25 AM, said:

I guess the question becomes what will YOU do? I don't have a Highlander, I do have 2 Atlases and a Orion and a Sara. So I know I will not be bringing a Highlander any time soon.

Ok so basically you are not reading what I have said....


I am asking, for a reason, you would bring a light or medium mech in a game mode called "Attack/Defend"...Now there is a strong implication, that one team will have a base to defend, and the other team will be attacking it...(It is possible that it is secretly just conquest under a different name, which would be fine, but that is not a new game mode and they probably would have just said "conquest is the main mode for CW"....)

Now why would you bring a medium in to defend an attack from 12 Assaults? He would be a wasted slot.

saying "role playing" and "fun" is really cool and all that but merc units can take planets that provide real benefits. So they want to win, not just participate. Why would a team who wants to win not field a full Assault/Heavy team? I can do it, I do very well in my heavies and assaults, I am asking what reason is there not to if winning is your goal?

Edited by Wispsy, 25 October 2013 - 03:33 AM.