121 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Wispsy, on 25 October 2013 - 03:31 AM, said:

Ok so basically you are not reading what I have said....


I am asking, for a reason, you would bring a light or medium mech in a game mode called "Attack/Defend"...Now there is a strong implication, that one team will have a base to defend, and the other team will be attacking it...

Now why would you bring a medium in to defend an attack from 12 Assaults? He would be a wasted slot.

saying "role playing" and "fun" is really cool and all that but merc units can take planets that provide real benefits. So they want to win, not just participate. Why would a team who wants to win not field a full Assault/Heavy team? I can do it, I do very well in my heavies and assaults, I am asking what reason is there not to if winning is your goal?

Then you are asking the wrong person. I suck in lights to begin with. Now I have seen some Lawmen Own Assaults in a Jenner. So while they are disrupting the 12 Highlanders, the rest us Lawmen will be punishing the Highlanders for chasing the squirrel. Yes they probably will die, but they will have done their part to secure a team win. For PUGs well You just cannot herd Cats.

[Wispsy]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 October 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

Then you are asking the wrong person. I suck in lights to begin with. Now I have seen some Lawmen Own Assaults in a Jenner. So while they are disrupting the 12 Highlanders, the rest us Lawmen will be punishing the Highlanders for chasing the squirrel. Yes they probably will die, but they will have done their part to secure a team win. For PUGs well You just cannot herd Cats.

You can beat an Assault in a Light only if you greatly outplay them and certainly not when they are with their whole team. Why would they chase the squirrel when they have no reason to leave their base? Just shoot it when it pops up...ignore it if it is nowhere near your base...

1 or 2 lights cannot disrupt 12 highlanders...you are basically just fighting outnumbered 12 to 10 and the other 2 waiting for one side to win whilst they either suicide into the enemy or wait for loss by timer...

Edited by Wispsy, 25 October 2013 - 03:40 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

I agree that there is very little reason to bring a light mech, unless this game mode is a slight variation of Conquest. Which is why I think we will have a slight variation of Conquest, and not something new. Conquest is already fairly similar to Assault (when you look at all the different game modes available in other FPS games), so I am under no illusion that PGI is afraid to stay on familiar ground.

So yes, Wispsy, I share your concern. But I'm also fairly sure that PGI is in no hurry to cater to dedicated light mech pilots.

[Joseph Mallan]

Chasing the squirrel in this instance means focusing on the distraction in their ranks. Sorry I wasn't clear on that.

Wispsy, I guess my inner Jarhead is showing. I see a problem, I need to solve it. I keep beating it till it isn't a problem. You want answers, but don't like the ones you get. Pick your self up dust your self off and figure it out. If you don't want to see all Highlanders... on't bring one. You just contributed to the solution. *Shrug* Only the uber competitive will be running what you are saying. Like I said, I don't own a Highlander, so I will not be a part that problem!

[Spawnsalot]

I think you're underestimating a PUGs ability to don the blinkers and play chase the squirrel...

While I don't know how the new game mode will pan out exactly or where objectives will be, I can guarantee a good light pilot with a TAG and maybe an airstrike/mortar strike module will be a real benefit to the team.

Not to mention if there are going to be tonnage limits in place, the defending team will be affected by them too so you're still going to want to have someone to knife-fight with opposing team's light.

My Commando will be in the best place for it - right in the middle of a huge scrap, trying to punch well above it's tonnage and head hunting the nearly dead.

[MWNoob]

Wispsy +1 to your post, it's a very valid point. If i wanted to win an attack / defend match i would tonne up, turtle and pop tart as an attacker or defender.

GG Close to a light that comes anywhere near 12 highlanders. And as for the whole pikemen / cavalry thing...... Highlander poptarts will own ANYTHING that comes near it. Including military strategies.

[Wispsy]

2 bases will still be fine for full assault team, you would need at least 3, but having 3 and only 3 and needing to keep all 3 does not make much sense so you would need around 5 at least....oh wait....

[Wispsy]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 October 2013 - 03:47 AM, said:

Chasing the squirrel in this instance means focusing on the distraction in their ranks. Sorry I wasn't clear on that.

Wispsy, I guess my inner Jarhead is showing. I see a problem, I need to solve it. I keep beating it till it isn't a problem. You want answers, but don't like the ones you get. Pick your self up dust your self off and figure it out. If you don't want to see all Highlanders... on't bring one. You just contributed to the solution. *Shrug* Only the uber competitive will be running what you are saying. Like I said, I don't own a Highlander, so I will not be a part that problem!

So it is ok if the games main mode of playing is completely imbalanced and massively favours one type of mech because you can chose to be something far less useful if you want and basically leave your team outnumbered hoping they can win it for you....as.....holding a planet has real rewards...

Look it is fine if you just want to drop in games and play big stompy mechs not caring if you win or lose...but the whole point of community warfare is that winning matters.................

[Khobai]

Quote

So it is ok if the games main mode of playing is completely imbalanced and massively favours one type of mech

You mean like how conquest almost always favors the team with the most light mechs? Ive lost countless conquest games just because my team had less lights or really bad lights.

Seems fine to have a gamemode that favors heavier mechs since we already have a gamemode that favors lights.

Granted id rather have more balanced gamemodes, but PGI seems incapable of designing a proper gamemode where every weight class can contribute equally.

[POWR]

Lights are better able to get into a position where they can target the enemy team with air and artillery strikes. Other things like TAG and such could be beneficial as well when targeted from a position that you won't see heavies and assaults move to quickly for firesupport from any LRM boaters.

[Wispsy]

Khobai, on 25 October 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

You mean like how conquest almost always favors the team with the most light mechs? Ive lost countless conquest games just because my team had less lights or really bad lights.

Seems fine to have a gamemode that favors heavier mechs since we already have a gamemode that favors lights.

Granted id rather have more balanced gamemodes, but PGI seems incapable of designing a proper gamemode where every weight class can contribute equally.

Assault favours assault/heavy mechs. Attack/Defend is going to be the MAIN game mode...the one that people will play to GET AND KEEP PLANETS. And you say it is totally fine if only assaults and maybe heavies get to influence it...

Whatever....cannot argue with that kind of selfish blindness...other peoples worth and opinions do not matter when you play mostly the "chosen class of godliness" and get to be more important then anybody who does not...

[Joseph Mallan]

Wispsy, on 25 October 2013 - 03:55 AM, said:

So it is ok if the games main mode of playing is completely imbalanced and massively favours one type of mech because you can chose to be something far less useful if you want and basically leave your team outnumbered hoping they can win it for you....as.....holding a planet has real rewards...

Look it is fine if you just want to drop in games and play big stompy mechs not caring if you win or lose...but the whole point of community warfare is that winning matters.................

Yes. If I am playing a Planetary assault I want to bring as much power as I muster A raid Light fast Mechs. It is completely proper game play to favor a type of Mech. Now because we only have two games right now we have become complacent, bored. We know what we "need" to bring to ensure victory, so we bring it. You are complaining out of bored frustration about a game that isn't even made yet. Chill dude,

Quote

Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

-Oddball-

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 25 October 2013 - 04:22 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Assault favours assault/heavy mechs.

It does? Then why do most competitive teams bring a lance of Light mechs? I think its universally agreed upon that that Assaults and Lights work better in a mixed composition than just having a team of all Assaults or all Lights.

Quote

Attack/Defend is going to be the MAIN game mode

That wasnt my understanding. My understanding is that you have to play multiple matches to capture a planet and only one of those matches is attack/defend. Before you can even play the attack/defend match you have to win the other matches which could very well be conquest and favor light mechs.

And yes I very much understand the plight of lights/mediums and how combat is currently the only role in the game. But until PGI decides to implement some type of role warfare then nothing is really going to change. I dont think the situation is that bad for Lights though. Mediums have it far worse since theyre not good in any gamemode.

Edited by Khobai, 25 October 2013 - 04:37 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 25 October 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

It does? Then why do most competitive teams bring a lance of Light mechs? I think its universally agreed upon that that Assaults and Lights work better in a mixed composition than just having a team of all Assaults or all Lights..

Max/Min for the win!

[Wispsy]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 October 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:

Yes. If I am playing a Planetary assault I want to bring as much power as I muster A raid Light fast Mechs. It is completely proper game play to favor a type of Mech. Now because we only have two games right now we have become complacent, bored. We know what we "need" to bring to ensure victory, so we bring it. You are complaining out of bored frustration about a game that isn't even made yet. Chill dude,

-Oddball-

What? What are you on? You are not reading my posts you are reading what you want to read and replying to that instead..

Khobai, on 25 October 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

It does? Then why do most competitive teams bring a lance of Light mechs? I think its universally agreed upon that that Assaults and Lights work better in a mixed composition than just having a team of all Assaults or all Lights.



That wasnt my understanding. My understanding is that you have to play multiple matches to capture a planet and only one of those matches is attack/defend. Before you can even play the attack/defend match you have to win the other matches which could very well be conquest and favor light mechs.

And yes I very much understand the plight of lights/mediums and how combat is currently the only role in the game. But until PGI decides to implement some type of role warfare then nothing is really going to change. I dont think the situation is that bad for Lights though. Mediums have it far worse.

The best tactic to never lose on assault is 12highlanders camping base. Aside from that, if you want to attack too, take 10 highlanders and 2 jenners, so they can run back and stall cap if they go there whilst your assaults get back...
I fail to see how that does not favour assault mechs.

Combat is the only role in the game right now.
Combat is going to be the only role in Team Deathmatch.
Combat is going to be the only role in Attack/Defend.

MAYBE WE SHOULD BALANCE THIS GAME ON THE FACT THAT COMBAT IS THE MAIN ROLE FOR EVERY MECH ON EVERY MODE. Capping bases on conquest can be a non combat role unless somebody else wants to cap bases too........

[Khobai]

Quote

The best tactic to never lose on assault is 12highlanders camping base.

It's true, attacking 12 highlanders on defense almost inevitably results in a loss. The counter to that is simply not to attack. Either the Highlanders have to attack you, giving you the defensive advantage, or the game results in a tie which is better than a loss.

Quote

The best tactic to never lose on assault is 12highlanders camping base.

They are implementing weight limits on groups. So thats not going to be a valid tactic for very long. Youre going to have to average out your tonnage with lights and mediums. So in attack/defend you wont be able to have all assaults in your group even if you wanted to.

Edited by Khobai, 25 October 2013 - 04:57 AM.

[Kaox Veed]

Khobai, on 25 October 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

They are implementing weight limits on groups. So thats not going to be a valid tactic for very long.

Yeah once they implement tonnage limits it is highly likely you will have to take a light for every Highlander you pick. So it will probably be better for composition to take a much broader selection of weight classes. You are looking at this game mode in the bubble of what the game is now, not what it will be like when Att/Def comes out.

[Shlkt]

Quote

So why...would you bring a medium or a light instead of taking a heavy or assault in their place? Like at all? Ever?

The correct answer to this question ought to be economic constraints. Assault 'Mechs are rare and expensive, and your faction / merc unit cannot afford to deploy all of their prize assaults in a single location. Unfortunately I do not expect CW to simulate an economy that would necessitate the above. Tonnage limits are therefore the next best thing. In that case I think it's a pretty valid question - would you rather have an Atlas and a Locust (120) or two Quickdraws (120)? Or a Highlander and a Spider (120)? Personally I hope that the tonnage limits are restrictive enough that we'll see no more than 3-4 assaults in any given match.

[Joseph Mallan]

Wispsy, on 25 October 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

What? What are you on? You are not reading my posts you are reading what you want to read and replying to that instead..

You asked if it was Ok for a game to favor one class of Mech, right? I answered that, yes it is. An Assault favors Heavy/Assault builds. You wanna smash your enemy, best way is to bring the heavy guns. On a Raid scenario, you want light fast Mechs to get in an out ASAP. That is scenario building 1 oh 1. So Conquest favors lights as Khobai has pointed out, an Assault well... Bigger is better.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 25 October 2013 - 04:55 AM.

[DaZur]

Quit honestly this whole discussion and the premises set forth are relative to how a player views / plays MW:O...

This is not an attack or a slight in any way but top-tier high-level competitive players see this scenario as a black & white all or nothing scenario... I.e. you bring your heaviest assault lances and bludgeon and defenders turtle. In short it's about the win and only the win.

For players like Joseph and myself who fancy a little roleplaying and are military strategy nostalgists, we see value in mixed forces and can rationalize use of them for various attack / defend duties. In short we are equally vested in the win... but we want to enjoy the scenery along the way.

Two completely polar approaches to the game and I have to admit I fail to see the fun in the "win-at-any-cost" approach as I'm sure our approach to MW:O completely vexes the high-level players...

Reality is you are not going to understand how we can say we are committed to the win if we do not apply the high-level meta. To be truthful and honest, if the only thing I wanted out of MW:O was to win / dominate... I'd question my play-style as well.

This is going to be a tough balancing act for PGI to accommodate without disenfranchising one side of this discussion... Sadly, I think there will have to be a concession that is going to irritate both parties because it's going to have to be resolved by a heavy-handed tonnage limit or BV bracket.