121 replies to this topic

[Wispsy]

DaZur, on 25 October 2013 - 04:56 AM, said:

Quit honestly this whole discussion and the premises set forth are relative to how a player views / plays MW:O...

This is not an attack or a slight in any way but top-tier high-level competitive players see this scenario as a black & white all or nothing scenario... I.e. you bring your heaviest assault lances and bludgeon and defenders turtle. In short it's about the win and only the win.

For players like Joseph and myself who fancy a little roleplaying and are military strategy nostalgists, we see value in mixed forces and can rationalize use of them for various attack / defend duties. In short we are equally vested in the win... but we want to enjoy the scenery along the way.

Two completely polar approaches to the game and I have to admit I fail to see the fun in the "win-at-any-cost" approach as I'm sure our approach to MW:O completely vexes the high-level players...

Reality is you are not going to understand how we can say we are committed to the win if we do not apply the high-level meta. To be truthful and honest, if the only thing I wanted out of MW:O was to win / dominate... I'd question my play-style as well.

This is going to be a tough balancing act for PGI to accommodate without disenfranchising one side of this discussion... Sadly, I think there will have to be a concession that is going to irritate both parties because it's going to have to be resolved by a heavy-handed tonnage limit or BV bracket.

Why must your fun, being using a balanced team (which ironically is something I find most fun in a game) must be so different from my fun of wanting to win and not lose...


I want to be able to take a medium mech into Attack/Defend so I can help my clan get/keep an important planet and I do not want to essentially put them a man down for this by halving my armour and weapons whilst moving at relatively similar speeds.




PEOPLE KEEP SAYING TONNAGE LIMITS WILL SOLVE ALL PROBLEMS! No...... why does tonnage limit solve the problems and not just force half the players into less useful classes and mechs they are not familiar with to then get slaughtered by the mechs with twice their weaponry and twice their armour. Who are you to decide you get to be the big boy on the field and everybody else has to be half as strong as you because "tonnage limits balance the game". Do YOU want to be the light mech in an all out poptart battle waiting for the end to come because your unit has too many Assault Pilots and nobody wants to play lights or mediums because, even though you have to bring some, they still barely contribute compared to others.

Khobai, on 25 October 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

It's true, attacking 12 highlanders on defense almost inevitably results in a loss. The counter to that is simply not to attack. Either the Highlanders have to attack you, giving you the defensive advantage, or the game results in a tie which is better than a loss.

Yes except if you are defending...then you automatically win every game, because they cannot attack you and they have a time limit in which to kill you or fail...

[Viges]

Alistair Winter, on 25 October 2013 - 03:45 AM, said:

I agree that there is very little reason to bring a light mech, unless this game mode is a slight variation of Conquest. Which is why I think we will have a slight variation of Conquest, and not something new. Conquest is already fairly similar to Assault (when you look at all the different game modes available in other FPS games), so I am under no illusion that PGI is afraid to stay on familiar ground.

You can make pretty interesting modes based on conquest with little changes. For example: 5 bases, but team got points only when it has 3 of any bases. So to keep 3 bases you will need different mechs with different loadouts. Its very simple to make and you have attack/defend mode that doesnt favor any classes.

[Joseph Mallan]

Wispsy, on 25 October 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

Why must your fun, being using a balanced team (which ironically is something I find most fun in a game) must be so different from my fun of wanting to win and not lose...


I want to be able to take a medium mech into Attack/Defend so I can help my clan get/keep an important planet and I do not want to essentially put them a man down for this by halving my armour and weapons whilst moving at relatively similar speeds.

I on't think his desire is any different than yours or mine. I want to win. I love winning! But, if I am PUGging I cannot count on my team winning so my expectations need to change with the environment. As a PUG I don't worry about the final result. I can only be happy with my participation. If I die in 30 seconds with 25 damage done, and win... that game sucked. If I wrack up 600+ damage an live to the end and lose, Fantastic game! There is the difference from where you and I are coming. from. Winning and Losing is a competitive idea that should only be for competitive teams!

So in your 12 Highlander scenario. If I wrack up 1 kill, 300+ damage and/or 3-5 assists. I kicked ash and feel good even if I'm on the losing team. If my 4 man loses but scored the best for our side, I can walk away happy, knowing we gave a good showing.

For those who cannot, I feel sorry for you.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 25 October 2013 - 05:25 AM.

[Wispsy]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 October 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

I on't think his desire is any different than yours or mine. I want to win. I love winning! But, if I am PUGging I cannot count on my team winning so my expectations need to change with the environment. As a PUG I don't worry about the final result. I can only be happy with my participation. If I die in 30 seconds with 25 damage done, and win... that game sucked. If I wrack up 600+ damage an live to the end and lose, Fantastic game! There is the difference from where you and I are coming. from. Winning and Losing is a competitive idea that should only be for competitive teams!

So in your 12 Highlander scenario. If I wrack up 1 kill, 300+ damage and/or 3-5 assists. I kicked ash and feel good even if I'm on the losing team. If my 4 man loses but scored the best for our side, I can walk away happy, knowing we gave a good showing.

For those who cannot, I feel sorry for you.

I am talking about in community warfare....they said Attack/Defend was going to be the main game mode for it.

In random drops at low Elo sure whatever...but this is going to be a persistent map in which Merc Units can gain control of planets. Winning DOES matter...it has real implications.

Viges, on 25 October 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

You can make pretty interesting modes based on conquest with little changes. For example: 5 bases, but team got points only when it has 3 of any bases. So to keep 3 bases you will need different mechs with different loadouts. Its very simple to make and you have attack/defend mode that doesnt favor any classes.

This would be the most balanced scenario for how the game is right now. If they did it like that my fears would all be completely unfounded....however that does not seem likely to happen.

[Joseph Mallan]

Wispsy, on 25 October 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

I am talking about in community warfare....they said Attack/Defend was going to be the main game mode for it.

In random drops at low Elo sure whatever...but this is going to be a persistent map in which Merc Units can gain control of planets. Winning DOES matter...it has real implications.

And as the Defender I would be inclined to defend my stuff as resolutely as possible, so I that means if I use 12 turting Highlanders an it is not to your liking. Good! I don't want to to be able to take my stuff! That is the implication of me having stuff, It's mine I will defend it the best I can with what I have. Why should I have to "give you a chance" to take my things? You will be coming into my house, with intent to take my things, and you want me to give you a fair chance... screw that my friend. If the roles are reversed I expect you to bring your A game with your best equipment to stop me. If I am not up to the task, I expect to get my backside handed back to me in pieces. That's how I have played games for the better part of my life.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 25 October 2013 - 05:46 AM.

[Wispsy]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 October 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:

And as the Defender I would be inclined to defend my stuff as resolutely as possible, so I that means I use 12 turting Highlanders an it is not to your liking. Good! I don't want to to be able to take my stuff! That is the implication of me having stuff, It's mine I will defend it the best I can with what I have. Why should I have to "give you a chance" to take my things? You will be coming into my house, with intent to take my things, and you want me to give you a fair chance... screw that my friend. If the roles are reversed I expect you to bring your A game with your best equipment to stop me. If I am not up to the task, I expect to get my backside handed back to me in pieces. That's how I have played games for the better part of my life.

Yes but CW being Highlander only is hardly.....well if that is what you call a fun game we should agree to disagree. You care only for lore, I would like the other classes to actually have a point in being played...

[Shlkt]

Why bring a light? Because if you don't bring a light then you will not be able to bring any assaults. Your team gets to decide whether the trade-off is worth it, or how many lights you can actually make use of.

From what I read here it sounds like a lot of people are expecting tonnage limits to be so large that we'll have games of 8 highlanders and 4 poor souls crammed into Blackjacks or something. Agreed, that would totally suck for the Blackjacks. But for CW I fully expect most 'mechs on the field to be mediums or heavies; that should be the goal of tonnage limits IMO. You won't feel "undergunned" in a medium because most of your opponents will be mediums. If there are two, maybe three assaults per team then that would be ideal IMO.

I don't see why winning under the above restrictions would be less fun than winning under all the other arbitrary restrictions that are imposed on this game. You're restricted by C-bills available, by tonnage per mech, by slots per mech, by ammunition, by ghost heat, etc... Tonnage limits are a team restriction rather than an individual restriction, sure, but it still serves the purpose of promoting diversity within the game.

Nobody complains that they can't run an AC/20 in every single ballistic slot on their 'Mech, because we all recognize that the tonnage and slot restrictions make the game better in the long run. So why complain that you can't run an Atlas or a Highlander in every 'Mech slot?

Edited by Shlkt, 25 October 2013 - 05:56 AM.

[JP]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 October 2013 - 03:25 AM, said:

I guess the question becomes what will YOU do? I don't have a Highlander, I do have 2 Atlases and a Orion and a Sara. So I know I will not be bringing a Highlander any time soon.

even if you bring your 2 atlases, your orion and sara at the sametime any highlander will destroy you in seconds.



now back on topic because you just seem to stay as far off from the topic as possible. When the game mode is ATTACK / DEFEND and as wispsy said "there is no reason to take anything other than Highlanders on the defense". Also why would you take anything lighter than an assult to attack when you know they will be sitting on 1 or 2 caps? There is no reason to go hunt for them, scout or chase since they will be sitting in a determined spot on the map. Any good player will agree that 12 assults will be the best for attacking and defending.

Your argument now will be that lights still have a role in this assult favored game mode. Ok fine, you bring your lights to fight a 12 highlander team. I will promise you I will either 1 shot or 2 shot you, it's really that easy. Sure you can try and flank but you won't last a couple tries with your light / medium mechs.

Also if we are defending and you think we are going to chase the light mechs then you really don't understand the purpose of defending. why chase a light mech away from base when they need to attack.

[Joseph Mallan]

Wispsy, on 25 October 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:

Yes but CW being Highlander only is hardly.....well if that is what you call a fun game we should agree to disagree. You care only for lore, I would like the other classes to actually have a point in being played...

If that is what my enemy is doing, I really don't care Wispsy. There are Canon units that do similar. Barber's Marauders a Battalion of mostly Marauder IIs with a few Marauders as an example. So if that becomes what I have to fight, then I will become really good at kicking the {Scrap} out of 12 Highlanders. and the banter of my fellow Lawmen will make the game a blast.

JP, on 25 October 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

even if you bring your 2 atlases, your orion and sara at the sametime any highlander will destroy you in seconds.



now back on topic because you just seem to stay as far off from the topic as possible. When the game mode is ATTACK / DEFEND and as wispsy said "there is no reason to take anything other than Highlanders on the defense". Also why would you take anything lighter than an assult to attack when you know they will be sitting on 1 or 2 caps? There is no reason to go hunt for them, scout or chase since they will be sitting in a determined spot on the map. Any good player will agree that 12 assults will be the best for attacking and defending.

Your argument now will be that lights still have a role in this assult favored game mode. Ok fine, you bring your lights to fight a 12 highlander team. I will promise you I will either 1 shot or 2 shot you, it's really that easy. Sure you can try and flank but you won't last a couple tries with your light / medium mechs.

Also if we are defending and you think we are going to chase the light mechs then you really don't understand the purpose of defending. why chase a light mech away from base when they need to attack.

Will they? Are you sure about that? Me personally I stink with lights, but I can and do kill Highlanders with a Marauder so I can leave the match happy in the end. Did I say it would try to draw you out? If you have 12 Highlanders in a group an a lance of ravens swarm in and begin weaving in your midst are you going to ignore them or the 8 Mechs with weapons to fear? How good are you at shooting 150 KpH in a tight situation with friendlies in the mix?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 25 October 2013 - 06:07 AM.

[Wispsy]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 October 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

If that is what my enemy is doing, I really don't care Wispsy. There are Canon units that do similar. Barber's Marauders a Battalion of mostly Marauder IIs with a few Marauders as an example. So if that becomes what I have to fight, then I will become really good at kicking the {Scrap} out of 12 Highlanders. and the banter of my fellow Lawmen will make the game a blast.


Will they? Are you sure about that? Me personally I stink with lights, but I can and do kill Highlanders with a Marauder so I can leave the match happy in the end.

Still not reading. I am not saying that bringing all assaults is wrong. I said WHY WOULD YOU NOT IF YOU WANT TO WIN...

**** sake these forums...these people.....I am out, so pointless, way to ignore everything but yourself as if nobody else has an opinion in the world that matters. I hope your selfish attitude makes you happy.

[JP]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 October 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

If that is what my enemy is doing, I really don't care Wispsy. There are Canon units that do similar. Barber's Marauders a Battalion of mostly Marauder IIs with a few Marauders as an example. So if that becomes what I have to fight, then I will become really good at kicking the {Scrap} out of 12 Highlanders. and the banter of my fellow Lawmen will make the game a blast.


Will they? Are you sure about that? Me personally I stink with lights, but I can and do kill Highlanders with a Marauder so I can leave the match happy in the end. Did I say it would try to draw you out? If you have 12 Highlanders in a group an a lance of ravens swarm in and begin weaving in your midst are you going to ignore them or the 8 Mechs with weapons to fear? How good are you at shooting 150 KpH in a tight situation with friendlies in the mix?

depending on what ELO bracket you are playing in, those 8 ravens wouldn't last more than a few seconds with the people that Wispsy and I play with.

[Joseph Mallan]

JP, on 25 October 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

depending on what ELO bracket you are playing in, those 8 ravens wouldn't last more than a few seconds with the people that Wispsy and I play with.

4 Ravens, Oh those Guys are above My Elo too, so We'd have to see if you are right But don't forget those Ravens are going to keep some of you from firing at the main force raining death on you. So if they die in the process of us thinning your Highlander Herd, they did their job.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 25 October 2013 - 06:18 AM.

[DaZur]

Wispsy, on 25 October 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

Why must your fun, being using a balanced team (which ironically is something I find most fun in a game) must be so different from my fun of wanting to win and not lose...

I want to be able to take a medium mech into Attack/Defend so I can help my clan get/keep an important planet and I do not want to essentially put them a man down for this by halving my armour and weapons whilst moving at relatively similar speeds.

In short, I do not buy into the "you are handicapping your team if you don't adhere to the top-tier meta" premise.

I pilot fast (Striker) heavies and mediums. Do I think I'm handicapping my team?... Absolutely not. Do I have to work a little harder because of my mech / loadout decisions... absolutely. Ultimately I find the challenge of winning / doing well with a less-than optimum build the most rewarding aspect of play, win or lose...

I find nothing enjoyable in placating a meta so my peers believe I'm vested in the goal of winning...

[Wispsy]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 October 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

How good are you at shooting 150 KpH in a tight situation with friendlies in the mix?

Very good. They will die in seconds.

[AvatarofWhat]

Wispsy, on 25 October 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

Why would you ever bring a light or medium when you are attacking...


Other then tonnage limits forcing people to be easy kills.

What kind of "role" will they be expected to play in CW when the enemy is obviously going to be defending their base so no scouting required...

hmmmm... worrying...

Maybe they could add a secondary objective that has to be completed in sync with the push on the main base? It could be on the other side of the map or something so the faster you are the quicker you get to come back and contribute to the main fight. Just an idea.

Either way tonnage limits alone are not going to promote the most fun for the most people in a game mode like this. Unless the people stuck in low tonnage mechs are given a specific role they can better accomplish they are just going to feel like second-class players. Of course some people will enjoy the challenge of playing at a disadvantage...

[Joseph Mallan]

Wispsy, on 25 October 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

Very good. They will die in seconds.

We'd just have to see then won't we. Don't get me wrong, I know some of you are out of my personal league, but that doesn't mean I don't know how to beat you, just that I am not the young gun I use to be.

[DaZur]

I dunno... Admittedly I PUG only but I have a lot more fear / respect for a couple tenacious lights as I crest a hill or round a corner than I do a Highlander.

But that's could just be my generous Elo speaking...

Edited by DaZur, 25 October 2013 - 06:33 AM.

[Wispsy]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 October 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

We'd just have to see then won't we. Don't get me wrong, I know some of you are out of my personal league, but that doesn't mean I don't know how to beat you, just that I am not the young gun I use to be.

Eh no it is just not hard to hit light mechs unless they completely outthink you and dodge half a second before you shoot...that or your hand spasms or you are playing with under minimum requirement computer and have 5fps...

[Joseph Mallan]

Wispsy, on 25 October 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

Eh no it is just not hard to hit light mechs unless they completely outthink you and dodge half a second before you shoot...that or your hand spasms or you are playing with under minimum requirement computer and have 5fps...

So then Our Light would last longer than a few seconds.

[Krivvan]

Well we don't exactly know what the game type will be like yet. Having multiple bases to defend would give lights quite a bit of use I'd think depending on the map. Looking at HPG Manifold, there seem to be multiple points that would be defended.