74 replies to this topic

[ShinVector]

Weeeee... The Spider 5V is no longer the worst mech in the game now...
I am glad I Mastered it... 169KPH is fun.

[MavRCK]

I don't think nerfing other classes to make another class viavle is a sound strategy for balancing...

Yes, the locust has its issue but it's a function of its tonnage - it's the lightest by far and the current rules demand 10 heatsinks which severely limits a locusts or any 20 ton mech. I understand the engines were tweaked to help, yet when running a locust with 4 machine guns and 1 med laser - those 3-4 tons of heat sinks are superfluous. Solution? I don't have any conclusive answer yet but....

I like that the locust can go 170 kph. I think that's a nice unique ability that it and the Spider 5k share. I hope they are more nimble too.

I think ECM should be an option to the locust variants, ECM brings so much to the team.

I wished the locust had more module slots ie 5 versus all the other mechs - UAV, artillery, airstrikes plus other modules would make it the module KING! And give it a role.... Carrying two aoe damage modules plus a uav and another module or two would be amazing.

I wished the cockpit was a little less obstructive but hey, I'm sure it'll grow on me.

I wished the 4 missile hardpoint locust could have 4 ssrm2s and BAP but that's an issue of tonnage and that BAP is over-powered.
I think BAP should be heavier - another topic all together - waych my tier list for issues on bap vs ecm.

The locust needs to be super nimble.

[Event Horizon]

Also understand that these new mechs from the Phoenix thing are suppose to be older mechs in the lore, so shouldn't they be a bit out dated compared to the newer mechs?

[StillRadioactive]

Sable Dove, on 15 October 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

So basically you're saying that no one should ever use anything but the Atlas, because it's the heaviest (and thus, the best) mech in the game. No other mech has a role or something that makes it worth playing. So why do I keep seeing other mechs? Shouldn't it just be 12 Atlases on each team?

PGI has said that they want role warfare so that every class has a role, and no mech can be the 'best' mech, regardless of weight. The Locust doesn't have a role. They suck at everything. There is no good reason to take a Locust.

You couldn't be more wrong there. The LCT-3M has a fantastic niche role, and that is as a tiny Jagermech. Equip it with 2x ML in each arm and advanced zoom. Its weapon mounts are so high that you can just barely peek over a hill and use advanced zoom to help you pick at open internals on enemy mechs ~350m away. When they notice your presence, you can back up, run to a new hill and repeat the process until you take off that arm or leg that you've been working on.

I got a 600 damage, 1300xp game doing exactly that.

[Rift Hawk]

Kataiser, on 15 October 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

The Locust is hard to pilot, but fairly strong, from what I've seen. It doesn't act like a frontline bruiser because it isn't one.

People seem under the misguided opinion that light mechs are supposed to be used the way this game allows them to be used. They aren't. Light mechs were more for scouting and in some cases indirect assault against an already engaged target. Light mechs in cannon and other MW games even, are a far different thing than light mechs in MWO. There were no Jenners soloing assault mechs, or heavies for that matter. They'd have a hard enough time staying alive against a medium mech. Going head to head with a Heavy or Assault would be nothing short of suicide in anything Mechwarrior besides this game. When I hear about lights being "the worst mech in the game" then I smile a bit and know that out of any other mech in MWO, its probably the most balances one we've got.

[Rift Hawk]

Sable Dove, on 15 October 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

So basically you're saying that no one should ever use anything but the Atlas, because it's the heaviest (and thus, the best) mech in the game. No other mech has a role or something that makes it worth playing. So why do I keep seeing other mechs? Shouldn't it just be 12 Atlases on each team?

PGI has said that they want role warfare so that every class has a role, and no mech can be the 'best' mech, regardless of weight. The Locust doesn't have a role. They suck at everything. There is no good reason to take a Locust.

First off, the Atlas is a piece of ****. Plain and simple. Why ? Because of the exact statement you added from PGI. The point of assault mechs and heavies, are to be "better" than other mechs. They cost more to produce and purchase, have far more armor than other mechs (Except a few) and have far more firepower. Except that they don't because PGI wants to "not have any mech better than the others. What a stupid way of doing things. Lights and mediums have far too much armor as it is and now people want more ? Too bad. If it were my choice, lights and mediums would have less armor. That way the game would be brought into line with real mechwarrior. Games where smaller mechs are forced to fill certain roles because they cannot head to head with mechs that have 3-4 times the armor amount and firepower they do.

Most of the largest weapons in mechwarrior aren't even in this game. They probably will never be. So really, all your doing currently in an assault mech is trading speed for armor. I can get better firepower out of mediums and heavies than I can most assault mechs. Thats actually really sad.

Edited by Imperial X, 16 October 2013 - 12:31 AM.

[Sable Dove]

Imperial X, on 16 October 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

First off, the Atlas is a piece of ****. Plain and simple. Why ? Because of the exact statement you added from PGI. The point of assault mechs and heavies, are to be "better" than other mechs. They cost more to produce and purchase, have far more armor than other mechs (Except a few) and have far more firepower. Except that they don't because PGI wants to "not have any mech better than the others. What a stupid way of doing things. Lights and mediums have far too much armor as it is and now people want more ? Too bad. If it were my choice, lights and mediums would have less armor. That way the game would be brought into line with real mechwarrior. Games where smaller mechs are forced to fill certain roles because they cannot head to head with mechs that have 3-4 times the armor amount and firepower they do.

Most of the largest weapons in mechwarrior aren't even in this game. They probably will never be. So really, all your doing currently in an assault mech is trading speed for armor. I can get better firepower out of mediums and heavies than I can most assault mechs. Thats actually really sad.

Except if they did it your way, you would see nothing but 24 Atlases (though maybe Highlanders, or Stalkers because they're ridiculously tough) in every game, because no one would want to pilot anything else. Having some mechs flat out superior to others is all well and good when each player commands a whole unit, but when individual players are piloting each mech, no one is going to pilot the little scout that spots a target then evaporates because the target looked at it funny, so now they're out of the game.

PGI took the route of balance over canon in this instance, and if they hadn't, the game would be very boring, and about 80% of the mechs would never be used.

Also, Atlases are pretty damn good. My D-DC is the mech I go to when I want to have an easy time because it's so easy to do well with. At the very least, there's no one with more weight to throw around, as opposed to my normal play, where I'm generally outweighed by 40-50 tons by two-thirds of the enemies.

Imperial X, on 16 October 2013 - 12:20 AM, said:

People seem under the misguided opinion that light mechs are supposed to be used the way this game allows them to be used. They aren't. Light mechs were more for scouting and in some cases indirect assault against an already engaged target. Light mechs in cannon and other MW games even, are a far different thing than light mechs in MWO. There were no Jenners soloing assault mechs, or heavies for that matter. They'd have a hard enough time staying alive against a medium mech. Going head to head with a Heavy or Assault would be nothing short of suicide in anything Mechwarrior besides this game. When I hear about lights being "the worst mech in the game" then I smile a bit and know that out of any other mech in MWO, its probably the most balances one we've got.

I never said lights were bad. (Though if it weren't bugged/broken, the Spider wouldn't be near as good as it is). The Locust is bad. It's bad in general. The only thing it could be used for is scouting, and thanks to a combination of auto-targeting, excessive sensor range, and excessive weapon ranges, as well as its lack of ECM, it fails at that too. Not to mention that with the exception of a couple of the big maps, scouting doesn't help in the average game.

StillRadioactive, on 15 October 2013 - 11:46 PM, said:

You couldn't be more wrong there. The LCT-3M has a fantastic niche role, and that is as a tiny Jagermech. Equip it with 2x ML in each arm and advanced zoom. Its weapon mounts are so high that you can just barely peek over a hill and use advanced zoom to help you pick at open internals on enemy mechs ~350m away. When they notice your presence, you can back up, run to a new hill and repeat the process until you take off that arm or leg that you've been working on.

I got a 600 damage, 1300xp game doing exactly that.

I want to know where you guys get these enemies. If you peek out at a competent enemy from that close, they'll rip you apart because the game automatically highlights you for them.

I peek out from 350m, and I'll be dead before my lasers are done firing, because the guy I shot at probably has dual AC20s, Dual Gauss, or 2 ERPPCs and an AC20.

Not to mention that while you're spending 95% of your time hiding and repositioning in order to hit one enemy with 15-20 damage, the rest of your team is getting killed because they're essentially outnumbered.

Edited by Sable Dove, 16 October 2013 - 01:07 AM.

[POWR]

Imperial X - if they did it the way you describe, we'd have a sort of Counter Strike game where people can take one or two hits from pretty much any weapon, and then that's that.

I dunno what sources you're referencing, but looking at sarna.net for weapons that are available for the time period that MWO has positioned itself in, then there aren't really any bigger weapons available that would make much of any sense to introduce.

I also disagree completely that an Atlas is a piece of *** and that it doesn't carry more firepower than others. When I pilot my Atlas around I have way more firepower than I do when piloting my Hunchbacks, and my capacity for sustained fire is also much higher because of the additional heatsinks it carries.

[Tharnus]

"Worst" you've clearly never piloted an Awesome for any length of time...

[ShinVector]

Tharnus, on 16 October 2013 - 02:33 AM, said:

"Worst" you've clearly never piloted an Awesome for any length of time...

Not sure what this comment about...
You own a Locust... And yet you are saying Awesome is worst ??
Trolll.....

[Ari Dian]

Sable Dove, on 15 October 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

So basically you're saying that no one should ever use anything but the Atlas, because it's the heaviest (and thus, the best) mech in the game. No other mech has a role or something that makes it worth playing. So why do I keep seeing other mechs? Shouldn't it just be 12 Atlases on each team?

PGI has said that they want role warfare so that every class has a role, and no mech can be the 'best' mech, regardless of weight. The Locust doesn't have a role. They suck at everything. There is no good reason to take a Locust.

As long as the game is not finished, and these "key" parts of it are missing, because there are game modes for these, the Locust will not have a true role.
And as long as the weight drops of the matches are THIS unbalanced, the locust dont has a use as light mech because it does not bring in his weight.

IF the match making is working, and balancing the teams by weight, the Locust has a reason again.
And once there are games modes where the scouting is being supported and even need, the scout mechs (not only the Locust) will have its use again.

Yes, PGI has said they want role warfare. But they said as well there will be no 3PV and the faction warfare will come out in a few month (and this was one year ago). Accept it. Devs cant keep up their promisses all the time.

On the other hand a Locust can win against an Atlas. As long as the Locust remain in the back of the Atlas. But in MWO like in the TT its a really stupid idea to be in the front side of an Atlas when you are a Locust. its just the way MWO work that you cant always prevent to be on this unlucky side of the enemy...

[Ari Dian]

Part I:

Sable Dove, on 15 October 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

-Cluttered cockpit; can be difficult to see clearly.

Well, the Locust is the Isetta under the mechs.

Sable Dove, on 15 October 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

-Possesses no advantage over any other light mech that would make it worth taking.

It has one, it weight less. Hell, what did you expect.

Sable Dove, on 15 October 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

-The slight amount of speed advantage is only obtainable by sacrificing a great deal of tonnage for weapons or armour.

Same as on any other mech as well, so whats the deal? A max speed Locust has 10 free tons. Half of its weight. A max speed Cicada (with even less top speed) has only 17.5 free tons. Less than half. A max speed Spider has only 14 tons free (less than half again).

Sable Dove, on 15 October 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

-It is barely smaller than the Spider, while also lacking jumpjets, ECM, or MASC, and with a loadout of 2/3rds the size.

... and 2/3 of the weight of the spider. Hell, what a surprisse.
Yes, one drawback is that the Locust cant have jump jets and is missing the ECM (at least should have one imo).

Sable Dove, on 15 October 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

-Doesn't have enough armour to survive any actual engagement with any other mech.

Again. It weight 20 tons. Less than any other. What did you expect. A brawling machine that can kill any other mech?

Sable Dove, on 15 October 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

Currently the only way I've found to actually make it remotely effective is to use an ER Large Laser and simply out-range enemies' sensors so they can't track as reliably. This range, of course, means that you do virtually no damage, but at least you're safe from return fire. Unless they have a Gauss, AC5, UAC5, AC2, or ERPPC, or ERLL.

This is not a problem of the Mech. Its a problem of the current game. There is no role or place for a support or scout mech.
Really shocking that a scout mech is not this effective right now.
In one part are you right. The Locust is missing some special tweaks that make him better in scounting compared to other (fighting) Mechs.
But: you should not Fight mechs with "big" weapons like ACs, Gauss, PPCs. Thats NOT the job of the Locust.
But see it the other way around. on two spiders you should have 3 Locust. Thats 15 small lasers versus their two large.
Just because the game is missing some matchmaking for weight drops, it does not mean the Locust is bad at all. Its bad in the current state of the game.

Sable Dove, on 15 October 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

The minuscule amount of damage you can inflict in a match results in virtually no XP, which makes the grind for efficiencies even more torturous than usual, and the non-combat rewards are even less viable, as they require you to be within sensor/TAG range with line of sight of the enemy, which is going to get you killed long before you get points for doing these things.

Pretty much the only purpose of the Locust is go as fast as possible and cap the enemy base. And only in Assault, because if you try to cap in Conquest, you'll be waiting more than long enough for an enemy light to get there and annihilate you.

And again, the fault of the game, not the Mech. scouting and capping is not supported enough. You get more XP by killing stuff compared to capping for the win.

Edited by Ari Dian, 16 October 2013 - 04:42 AM.

[Denolven]

Guys let's stay focused to the topic:

Destined, on 15 October 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

Can you explain in a more precise way what you don't like about the Locust?

There is a simple rule of thumb to see if a Mech is worth anything:
Identify the situations where it would be a threat to you or your team.

Negative example: Locust 1V.
It can run fast, but doesn't do anything else unless the opponent has no armor left. Granted that happens, but it's a very small niche. A niche filled by EVERY other mech as well.
So what's left is its speed. Now tell me, how is speed alone going to be a threat in the current gameplay mechanics that emphasize on fighting? Only thing that it does is MAYBE to delay enemy capping your base for a short while (cause it'll get eaten quickly).
Both "threats" are meh, nothing anyone really bothers about.

Positive example: Locust 3M.
That one looks ok. It can ankle-bite you to death if you are damaged a bit or ignore it for too long, and it buffs its team with 2 AMS, so not too bad. Can defend itself, is a cheap anti missile teambuff. Both adequate amount ot threat for the weight.
_________________________________________________

So the baseline is: design the mech in a way that makes it a threat in some way. Small threat for small weight is ok, but the 1V is really a cruel joke under the current gameplay mechanics (which are another topic - I want to keep this clean here).

I am a scout by heart and tried to play this role for 1k games. And I'm good at those things. But I came to the conclusion that there is no such thing as a scout in this game. There are light fighters and heavy fighters, that's it. It's a fighting game.
So keep that in mind when designing Mechs. Either use gameplay mechanics that support other activities than fighting (the path that leads to "balancing by incomparables" and the one I prefer, explained here), or make the Mechs fighting-capable (the cheaper way and probably what's going to happen someday).

Edited by Denolven, 16 October 2013 - 05:01 AM.

[Ari Dian]

Part II:

Sable Dove, on 15 October 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

In truth, the problem isn't the Locust itself; it's an issue with many gameplay mechanics. Mechs in general are too agile (in terms of torso-twist/pitch, arm movement, turning, etc.), so the only way to give the Locust an advantage is to make it even more agile, at which point it simply becomes more difficult to pilot or aim. Without any efficiencies, and with mouse sensitivity at 0.4, the locust turns its torso far faster than the camera can keep up, so increasing the speed is only going to make it more difficult to aim.

You can already circle around assault mechs. And if you do it right, and he dont has assist, he will not be able to hit you at all. I was already playing hide and seek against a stalker in a commando. He alone could not hit me (could maybe different with a more skilled pilot on the stalker). Problem were the "friends" of him who forced me to leave.

Sable Dove, on 15 October 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

Thanks to efficiencies, Assaults are more agile than heavies should be, heavies more than mediums should be, and mediums as agile as lights should be (minus the ground-speed unless it's a Cicada). So the only thing to do for lights is to make them so agile that it begins to work against the player.

The only advantage it actually has is tonnage, and when tonnage gaps of 100+ tons are very common, that doesn't mean squat. Especially when you can take a mech 5-15 tons heavier that is superior in every way, and it wouldn't have any significant effect on the teams.

Games fault. No weight matching drops means problems. If the weight of the mech dont has such a big influence, you are throwing away one of the boni from the Locust. For each Locust instead of a Spider, you can put in a Stalker instead of an Orion.

Sable Dove, on 15 October 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

It's hard to suggest how to fix the Locust, since the problems are that the entire system works against them, but a start would be to remove the clutter from the cockpit, and reduce the size a bit.

Its not. See the Locust as it is. A light scout Mech. Not a brawler. I cant say anything about the Cockpit, because i didnt see it so far. I can as well not say anything about the size, but from what i saw its a bit smaller as a spider (would be ok).

Sable Dove, on 15 October 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

Addressing the systemic problems:
-Re-work mech efficiencies so that they are tradeoffs or specializations, rather than direct upgrades.
-Reduce ranges of ballistics and the ERPPC (ballistics would be a simple matter of reducing the max range to just 2x the effective range. ERPPC just needs it's range reduced to what it should be, relative to the PPC, rather than having a disproportionately large increase).
-Increase the effectiveness of FF Armour so that it either uses fewer slots, or provides a greater reduction.
-If hit detection issues are hammered out in the future, a slight damage reduction based on speed, to represent shots being more apt to glancing (or being spread in the case of lasers). This means that it's additional speed actually helps it, rather than just making it harder to pilot.

Fixes:
- Finish the game and add some use for scout and support mechs would be a good start.
- Matchmaking. Balance the teams by weight or add a max weight drop per team or for the full match. Maybe like on LOL, where you choose your Hero in the matchmaking. But this would mean a total different lobby and matchmaking system.

[Kmieciu]

Denolven, on 16 October 2013 - 04:44 AM, said:

I am a scout by heart and tried to play this role for 1k games. And I'm good at those things. But I came to the conclusion that there is no such thing as a scout in this game. There are light fighters and heavy fighters, that's it. It's a fighting game.

And it only took you about 1k games to figure it out?

[Xendojo]

My very first Match in a stock LCT-3S, Canyon Network, conquest and i survived.

First impression, i like the little mech! Now to figure out how to put 4 SSRM2 on it!!
Not as easy as it sounds...as it comes with endo and FF stock. Also, in this match i saw another LCT-3S with 1xML and 2xLRM5, that's one way to add some damage from range.

Experience piloting light mechs will definitely increase your life span in this mech.

So yeah, i don't get what you are on about OP. I had no issues, in a STOCK MECH(except i did run hotter than i like to). If you are getting melted, hate to say it, but it's probably because of pilot error.

EDIT: Putting an XL170 on it freed up exactly enough weight to slap 2 more SSRM2 on. Now to free up one more ton for ammo.

EDIT#2: Bought all 3 variants, gonna master this little guy for sure.

Edited by Xendojo, 16 October 2013 - 05:58 AM.

[Denolven]

Kmieciu, on 16 October 2013 - 05:30 AM, said:

And it only took you about 1k games to figure it out?

I was very determined in my Spider 5V, because I suck at everything else.
Then I got myself a Jenner, and I accepted defeat. If a gimp like me does better in a fighter than in a scout, then there is no scouting in the game.

[Penance]

Not every mech in the BT universe is meant for mech combat, at least for long durations. Some are scouts meant to harass infantry or light vehicles. Locusts are hit and run mechs best used in gro of lights

Edited by Penance, 16 October 2013 - 06:38 AM.

[Nik Reaper]

Cardos, on 15 October 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

u guys are complainingh that the lightest mech didnt have an advantage over all others? seriously?

let me point one out for u.....it is not just the lightest mech.....its also the cheapest one and it really is devastating in swarms...

With each having 5 Mlas and going at 170 kph yeah sure , if you could trade 1 victor for 4 of them , but since you can only have 12 and the enemy also has 12 why would you take something that the your enemy counterpart can 99% of the time defeat with little sacrifice?
Now if only there were team tonnage and some sort of value limits (max cbills worth of a team) but not player number limits....

P.S. Heck, having value limits , a modified battle value system that would need to be balanced for MWO and teams that could have up to I don't know, 15 players per side but a min of 12.
I could see having fun with that, and as always do point out what wouldn't work with that .

Edited by Nik Reaper, 16 October 2013 - 06:57 AM.

[Denolven]

Nik Reaper, on 16 October 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

Now if only there were team tonnage and some sort of value limits (max cbills worth of a team) but not player number limits....

That's the whole thing. The current limit is number of players. So it's only natural to go for the one that can rack up the most kills. No point in going for lower weight. To balance teams AND make people play every mech, weight limits are a must have (plus the threat thing I mentioned above - in a weight context the Locust would look more threatening simply by taking less space).

Edited by Denolven, 16 October 2013 - 07:19 AM.