176 replies to this topic

[Hellcat420]

i would like all of the phoenix mechs to have the decals they showed in the pics while selling us the phoenix packages.

[Bishop Steiner]

Warge, on 21 October 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

One of the reasons why I'm still happy with PP's refund. As ex-PGI's valued core customer to present valued core customer: welcome on island, man.

Your loss, since that overall, the ShadowHawk suffers literally zero in-game negative impact from that, and in fact is possibly the toughest and most durable Medium ever made. Add in the mobility and weapon potential, and it's tops.

As for that Island, judging by in-game sightings, either it's a mighty big Island, like Manhattan big, or maybe it's you on that there Island.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 October 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

Your loss, since that overall, the ShadowHawk suffers literally zero in-game negative impact from that, and in fact is possibly the toughest and most durable Medium ever made. Add in the mobility and weapon potential, and it's tops.

As for that Island, judging by in-game sightings, either it's a mighty big Island, like Manhattan big, or maybe it's you on that there Island.

He is definitely missing out since the Shadowhawk is also the most XL friendly medium in the game. I can count on one hand the number of times I died from an engine crit in the side torso which is 3 out of all the matches I've had in them. It may be a medium mech, but it can take punishment like an assault and keep on trucking. I've seen my XL Shadowhawk get down to 22% and still live.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 21 October 2013 - 09:21 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

James The Fox Dixon, on 21 October 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

He is definitely missing out since the Shadowhawk is also the most XL friendly medium in the game. I can count on one hand the number of times I died from an engine crit in the side torso which is 3 out of all the matches I've had in them. It may be a medium mech, but it can take punishment like an assault and keep on trucking. I've seen my XL Shadowhawk get down to 22% and still live.

Funnily enough, I still haven't died to ST coring. I have had my CT boned out pretty much every time I died, aside from one instance I had my face melted off, and an unfortunate leg ammo explosion. I did lose an ST once, but it was in the handful of matches I was using the AC20 ShadowHunch^tm (yes, I claim that name). And I attribute that to the severe lowering of mobility that build requires. But it should be noted I ended that match minus my RT, RA, LA, CT, most of my armor AND my head.

Something about dropping under the platform in Crimson Strait by accident only to find 8 Heavy and Assaults under ECM cover tends to end poorly for ANY mech, sometimes even Spiders.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 21 October 2013 - 09:30 AM.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 October 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

Funnily enough, I still haven't died to ST coring. I have had my CT boned out pretty much every time I died, aside from one instance I had my face melted off, and an unfortunate leg ammo explosion. I did lose an ST once, but it was in the handful of matches I was using the AC20 ShadowHunch^tm (yes, I claim that name). And I attribute that to the severe lowering of mobility that build requires. But it should be noted I ended that match minus my RT, RA, LA, CT, most of my armor AND my head.

Something about dropping under the platform in Crimson Strait by accident only to find 8 Heavy and Assaults under ECM cover tends to end poorly for ANY mech, sometimes even Spiders.

Only reason why I had ST taken out was due to ammo explosions from my legs. LOL Seems that the legs of the Shadowhawk are the number one priority and I happen to store my Streak ammo there.

[Bishop Steiner]

James The Fox Dixon, on 21 October 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

Only reason why I had ST taken out was due to ammo explosions from my legs. LOL Seems that the legs of the Shadowhawk are the number one priority and I happen to store my Streak ammo there.

only been legged once, but I probably am a little less airborne than many, I tend to terrain maneuver and directional shift, and only occasionally go superman. I notice some people like to hang their Trebbies and Shawks like goodyear blimps.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 October 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

only been legged once, but I probably am a little less airborne than many, I tend to terrain maneuver and directional shift, and only occasionally go superman. I notice some people like to hang their Trebbies and Shawks like goodyear blimps.

In my situation it's been due to me going 115 kph. LOL

[Shadey99]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 October 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

sorry to hear that. I am well nigh unkillable in the thing.

Might I ask your loadouts? Seems like two real common issues with SHD pilots is the universal "don't twist enough", but also that too many people try to specialize them too much, and the mech is not a great dedicated scout hunter, brawling face ripper or support/sniper, but is best in roles where it can do all of the above. As long as I don't rush in and get face ***** by focus fire, but just play patiently, use my Ballistic to suppress at range, and then as the engagement unfolds, work my way in and use my energy and missiles for close in fighting, I do fine.

Wow, I feel like I'm coming back to this late... But I've run a few dozen builds (usually run them twice unless they fail alot the first time). 3xAC2 (+ML), PPCs and AC5s, MPLs and streaks... I'd have to be home to build an assortment up on Smurfy. I've faired worst in the 2H and I've tried to find a good build for it... But never a single kill. I almost have 1 kill per match in my 5M (which I recall is UAC5+2xMPL and streaks at the moment). I have 1 kill at least on my 2D2 which is specced as a light hunter atm (MLs, streaks, and an AC5)...

I tend to rely alot on my ACs because they are high and I can peek over hills/buildings, with my energy weapons only really used up close and the streaks used to backup my firepower against lights (which I'm way better at hitting with my ACs).

[Roland]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 October 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

Your loss, since that overall, the ShadowHawk suffers literally zero in-game negative impact from that, and in fact is possibly the toughest and most durable Medium ever made. Add in the mobility and weapon potential, and it's tops.

As for that Island, judging by in-game sightings, either it's a mighty big Island, like Manhattan big, or maybe it's you on that there Island.

You're just in a honeymoon period with the shadowhawk.

You are in games which do not represent the normal distribution of mech weights, primarily as a result of the Locust being so common right now.

Once mech distribution returns to its normal distribution of being mainly heavy and assault mechs, with a few lights, then the shadowhawk is going to encounter the exact same problems that every other medium encounters.

It has no significant agility bonus over heavy mechs, but is sized the same as them, with less weapons and armor. That is a losing combination.

Compared to other medium mechs, it's fine.. And don't get me wrong, I like the mech.

But until medium mechs have significant agility bonuses over heavy chassis, there's very little reason to actually bring them... None of the reasons which existed in battletech apply (which were generally all economic reasons).

All medium mechs need to be scaled down, and need to be markedly more agile than heavy chassis. Otherwise, they're just worse armed, lighter armored heavy mechs... which is to say they are just straight up downgrades.

In an environment with lots of other medium mechs, or lots of very poor light mechs in the form of the locust, then the shadowhawk will shine.. but all medium mechs are viable in that environment.

The problem is that you're only seeing that environment now because of recent mech releases.. not because anything actually changed in the inherent balance structure of the game. And that means that the mech distribution we saw previously is going to return.

[Bishop Steiner]

Shadey99, on 21 October 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

Wow, I feel like I'm coming back to this late... But I've run a few dozen builds (usually run them twice unless they fail alot the first time). 3xAC2 (+ML), PPCs and AC5s, MPLs and streaks... I'd have to be home to build an assortment up on Smurfy. I've faired worst in the 2H and I've tried to find a good build for it... But never a single kill. I almost have 1 kill per match in my 5M (which I recall is UAC5+2xMPL and streaks at the moment). I have 1 kill at least on my 2D2 which is specced as a light hunter atm (MLs, streaks, and an AC5)...

I tend to rely alot on my ACs because they are high and I can peek over hills/buildings, with my energy weapons only really used up close and the streaks used to backup my firepower against lights (which I'm way better at hitting with my ACs).

well, I got some Builds I can wholeheartedly recommend, but at the end of the day, build success has as much to do with fighting style and PUG quality (dear god nothing tanks KDr like a run of cat herding). If you want to try em, gimme a holler. I will say that for Light Hunting, I prefer the Kintaro. For Light Defense (a totally differing role, whereas speed is not as central, as one stays in "escort" rather than haring off to hunt wabbits) I prefer a 2D2.

Anyhow, gimme a holler. My 2D2 is currently running a 4.6 KDr, and my others SHADs are both above 2.5, with a mix of 4 man and PUGing under their belts. I only wish I was doing as well with my THUDs and B-Masters, but they are slowly shaping up for me.

[Bishop Steiner]

Roland, on 21 October 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

blah blah blah bitter angry canned rant blah blah blah

Sorry dude, can't take your stuff remotely seriously anymore. Instead of canned rhetoric, I prefer to do my own thing and think and learn for myself. And have repeatedly laughed at the myth of Medium Inferiority, all of which are SIGNIFICANTLY more agile than Heavies and Assaults.

But keep clinging to what ever keeps you warm at night.

*PS no honeymoon here, chief, was not particularly looking forward to the ShadowHawk. Never much liked it in TT, and the THUD was the honeypot I was waiting on. Yet I can and do solo solo pretty much everything in the game in my Shad, with little worries. Actions speak louder than words, the Shawk has proven to hundreds of players over the last week, that for people who actually know how to pilot, it is one sweet mech. You and Vass and the other "pros" can keep railing against it all you want. I'll go with the hard proof of piloting them.

Cheers!

[PropagandaWar]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 October 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

Your loss, since that overall, the ShadowHawk suffers literally zero in-game negative impact from that, and in fact is possibly the toughest and most durable Medium ever made. Add in the mobility and weapon potential, and it's tops.

As for that Island, judging by in-game sightings, either it's a mighty big Island, like Manhattan big, or maybe it's you on that there Island.

The Shawk is my new baby. Poor Hunchy. Thousands of games with you ol' boy, but As a medium pilot I think I deserve this upgrade and it goes: Dakka Dakka, Pew, Pew, Whoosh, Whoosh! Yeah thats what my new mechs say!

Roland, on 21 October 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

You're just in a honeymoon period with the shadowhawk.

You are in games which do not represent the normal distribution of mech weights, primarily as a result of the Locust being so common right now.

Once mech distribution returns to its normal distribution of being mainly heavy and assault mechs, with a few lights, then the shadowhawk is going to encounter the exact same problems that every other medium encounters.

It has no significant agility bonus over heavy mechs, but is sized the same as them, with less weapons and armor. That is a losing combination.

Compared to other medium mechs, it's fine.. And don't get me wrong, I like the mech.

But until medium mechs have significant agility bonuses over heavy chassis, there's very little reason to actually bring them... None of the reasons which existed in battletech apply (which were generally all economic reasons).

All medium mechs need to be scaled down, and need to be markedly more agile than heavy chassis. Otherwise, they're just worse armed, lighter armored heavy mechs... which is to say they are just straight up downgrades.

In an environment with lots of other medium mechs, or lots of very poor light mechs in the form of the locust, then the shadowhawk will shine.. but all medium mechs are viable in that environment.

The problem is that you're only seeing that environment now because of recent mech releases.. not because anything actually changed in the inherent balance structure of the game. And that means that the mech distribution we saw previously is going to return.

aparently you don't run across my pack because when we are in our mediums running cohesivly we are a force. Even pugging in my medium when I want to It's no joke. Also I'm still seeing a {Scrap} Ton of Assaults and heaview out there so I dunno what your talking about.

[SgtMagor]

meh, Shawk looks fab can't wait till I start mastering the mech

[Mordynak]

I really don't see what the fuss is about here. Shadow Hawks are supposed to be rather tall arent they?

Also, the classes... I keep seeing people saying that they want medium mechs to be medium sized. Well thats just backwards. Mechs in the BattleTech universe arent categorised by their height, they are categorised by their weight.

Weight class people, weight class. Not Height class.... weight. Remember that,

Also, as previously mentioned in this topic. The Shadow Hawk for me now is the best performing mech. So its height isnt a problem. Come to think of it, how is its height ever going to be a problem? haha

Also, the Shadow Hawk is my favorite mech at the minute.

[Bishop Steiner]

PropagandaWar, on 21 October 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

The Shawk is my new baby. Poor Hunchy. Thousands of games with you ol' boy, but As a medium pilot I think I deserve this upgrade and it goes: Dakka Dakka, Pew, Pew, Whoosh, Whoosh! Yeah thats what my new mechs say!


aparently you don't run across my pack because when we are in our mediums running cohesivly we are a force. Even pugging in my medium when I want to It's no joke. Also I'm still seeing a {Scrap} Ton of Assaults and heaview out there so I dunno what your talking about.

Same. In comp 12 man, or 4 man or PUGing, I have found the Shawk easily holds it's own. As long as people don't try to turn it into a SpeedHawk^tm (Streaktaro knockoff) or a ShadowHunch^tm (self explanatory, I would hope) it works just fine.

My primary is certainly my 2D2, which is all purpose, able to defend my heavier units from Wolf Packs, plug weak points in the battle line, or hare off to destroy overextended stragglers. It's no assault mech, but it's far more survivable than a Cat, Jager or Phract, though admittedly not as heavily armed either. Spreads damamge like a boss, with the wheels and jets to get out of dodge, when needed.

My 5M is my "Heavy Hunter" used primarily for fighting against units of equal or greater mass, and it's blend of durability, mobility and facepunch with it's dual large laser and ac10 work quite well, while static or mobile.

*Shrugs* so IDK where all these ideas come from, but especially on maps with bad terrain, and higher heat, be it Terra Therma, Tourmaline or the Canyon Network, the mix of better torso twist range, better arm reflex and faster turn and twists rates most mediums enjoy, along with lower heat burdens and better terrain handling profiles, can give significant advantage.

Would a Hunchback be my first choice for a standing slugfest on Alpine? No. But I hardly break into cold sweats at the thought either. There are exactly 3 scenarios overall that I fear in my Shawk: 1) Getting Wolf Packed, 2) Ambushed by a BoomJager and 3) going 1v1 with an equal pìlot in a VTR (Which coincidentally happens to be the assault of choice for people who know how to do something beside tank, snipe or poptart).

And last I checked, those were situations no smart pilot in any mech particularly enjoys.

[Roland]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 October 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

Sorry dude, can't take your stuff remotely seriously anymore. Instead of canned rhetoric, I prefer to do my own thing and think and learn for myself. And have repeatedly laughed at the myth of Medium Inferiority, all of which are SIGNIFICANTLY more agile than Heavies and Assaults.

But they aren't signficantly more agile than heavy mechs. I mean, this isn't really a matter of opinion, right? It's based on the coding that is currently in game.


What exactly constitutes a significant agility advantage in your eyes, in terms of degrees per second of turning and twist rate? Because the mediums in game do not appear to have a very large advantage over heavy chassis.

Quote

*PS no honeymoon here, chief, was not particularly looking forward to the ShadowHawk. Never much liked it in TT, and the THUD was the honeypot I was waiting on. Yet I can and do solo solo pretty much everything in the game in my Shad, with little worries. Actions speak louder than words, the Shawk has proven to hundreds of players over the last week, that for people who actually know how to pilot, it is one sweet mech. You and Vass and the other "pros" can keep railing against it all you want. I'll go with the hard proof of piloting them.

I think that perhaps you misunderstand my post.

My reference to a honeymoon period stems from the fact that you are currently playing against mechs that are not normal in MWO. In the long haul, you are not going to be playing against as many locusts as you are now. You are only seeing that opposition currently due to the mechs which have been recently released. Likewise, you are seeing more opponents who are driving shadowhawks, due to their being released to other phoenix package purchasers.

Against such opponents, the shad does well. But this is not the environment which it will eventually have to compete it. It'll eventually have to compete in the same ultimate environment which the metagame has dictated. Because nothing has changed in that metagame. If you feel that something has changed, please feel free to explain what you think that is.

And again, I speak from the perspective of actually liking the shadowhawk... In general, I like medium mechs, because I piloted them often back in MW4 league play, where tonnage restrictions required their usage.

But in MWO, we've already seen that without any of those restrictions, medium mechs simply do not get used very often. They currently offer little reason to take them compared to light and heavy chassis. They are in an awkward spot, where they lack the agility of light mechs, but lack the firepower and armament of heavy mechs.

I'm not sure what about these statements you could possibly be disagreeing with. Even the devs acknowledged some of these issues when they talked about giving some of the medium chassis agility bonuses.

Quote

aparently you don't run across my pack because when we are in our mediums running cohesivly we are a force.

My own unit often ran 8 mans with 8 hunchbacks, largely for the lulz, and won most of our matches in that queue with that config.. but it wasn't really that the hunchbacks were extremely powerful mechs.

Again, people seem to be getting real defensive, thinking that I'm badmouthing the shad, when in reality I'm merely pointing out that the same issues which have plagued the medium weight mechs up until now will continue to do so... because why wouldn't they, if nothing has changed in that regard?

Oh, one final thing...
Are you guys actually opposing the idea of shrinking the scale of the shadowhawk to be closer in size to a hunchback? I mean, would having it be smaller than a heavy mech make it somehow OVER powered in your eyes?

Edited by Roland, 21 October 2013 - 12:19 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mordynak, on 21 October 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

I really don't see what the fuss is about here. Shadow Hawks are supposed to be rather tall arent they?

Also, the classes... I keep seeing people saying that they want medium mechs to be medium sized. Well thats just backwards. Mechs in the BattleTech universe arent categorised by their height, they are categorised by their weight.

Weight class people, weight class. Not Height class.... weight. Remember that,

Also, as previously mentioned in this topic. The Shadow Hawk for me now is the best performing mech. So its height isnt a problem. Come to think of it, how is its height ever going to be a problem? haha

Also, the Shadow Hawk is my favorite mech at the minute.

Ideally, about 2 meters shorter would suit me, but Wide and thick are bigger dangers than Tall. But most people can't seem to put 2+2 together on that. The truth is the SHD's torso is pretty compact, and the arms shield it very well. Most of the height is in the legs, which I seldom take heavy damage in. And oddly my hunch has never been "hunched", yet.

And I freely admit, when I first saw the height, and the hunches, and when I first opened it up in Mechlab and saw the hunch never went away, I thought "DOA" myself. Then I actually shut up and drove it. I can only assume all the doubters and haters fall into a few categories, either people who have never really tried to learn to drive a medium, probably haven't x2 unlocked them, People who only know how to exploit metarape, and are therefore lacking in actual piloting skill, possibly the people whom Medium Mechs just really don't fit the play style of (and we all have our own unique play styles) or people who are bitter because they cancelled their PHX package and now feel dumb and instead of admitting they might have been wrong only want to compound their falling by railing against the world and claiming the sky really is pink.

Either way, they are wrong. Just because they can't or wont get good in something is far different from something actually being bad.

[Bishop Steiner]

Roland, on 21 October 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

But they aren't signficantly more agile than heavy mechs. I mean, this isn't really a matter of opinion, right? It's based on the coding that is currently in game.


What exactly constitutes a significant agility advantage in your eyes, in terms of degrees per second of turning and twist rate? Because the mediums in game do not appear to have a very large advantage over heavy chassis.




I think that perhaps you misunderstand my post.

My reference to a honeymoon period stems from the fact that you are currently playing against mechs that are not normal in MWO. In the long haul, you are not going to be playing against as many locusts as you are now. You are only seeing that opposition currently due to the mechs which have been recently released. Likewise, you are seeing more opponents who are driving shadowhawks, due to their being released to other phoenix package purchasers.

Against such opponents, the shad does well. But this is not the environment which it will eventually have to compete it. It'll eventually have to compete in the same ultimate environment which the metagame has dictated. Because nothing has changed in that metagame. If you feel that something has changed, please feel free to explain what you think that is.

And again, I speak from the perspective of actually liking the shadowhawk... In general, I like medium mechs, because I piloted them often back in MW4 league play, where tonnage restrictions required their usage.

But in MWO, we've already seen that without any of those restrictions, medium mechs simply do not get used very often. They currently offer little reason to take them compared to light and heavy chassis. They are in an awkward spot, where they lack the agility of light mechs, but lack the firepower and armament of heavy mechs.

I'm not sure what about these statements you could possibly be disagreeing with. Even the devs acknowledged some of these issues when they talked about giving some of the medium chassis agility bonuses.


My own unit often ran 8 mans with 8 hunchbacks, largely for the lulz, and won most of our matches in that queue with that config.. but it wasn't really that the hunchbacks were extremely powerful mechs.

Again, people seem to be getting real defensive, thinking that I'm badmouthing the shad, when in reality I'm merely pointing out that the same issues which have plagued the medium weight mechs up until now will continue to do so... because why wouldn't they, if nothing has changed in that regard?

Oh, one final thing...
Are you guys actually opposing the idea of shrinking the scale of the shadowhawk to be closer in size to a hunchback? I mean, would having it be smaller than a heavy mech make it somehow OVER powered in your eyes?

It actually is pretty significant.

Lets say and ATM, I am too lazy to grab the solid numbers, but for simplicity sake, Medium Mech X has 10% better torso range than Heavy Mech Y. Seems kinda minor. Now that same M-Mech X also has 10% more arm reflex than H-Mech Y. That doesn't make Mech X only have 10% more range. The arm reflex range stacks with the torso twist. And they are appreciably faster at twisting too. Turn speed is not tied to base engine number size, but proportional engine size/Speed. A BoarsHead with a 400XL does not out turn or torso twist speed a Hunchback with a 250, for instance.

Run an unlocked HBK-4G in game. Can't use testing ground, because your pilot efficiencies don't work there. Drop with some friends. Then twist that HBK and you can almost shoot directly behind you. Try the same thing in a Jager, Phract, or even a Victor (which is rather agile for a big boy). They don't have near the total, stacked range, nor the reflexes to snap to those ranges as fast. And in tight fights, that can indeed be huge. Just as the extra nit of vertical angle the Shadowhawk has doesn't seem like much.... until you are on the ledge shooting down and the Shawks AC can effectively hit the mechs below, whereas the Atlas and Cataphract cannot.

There is no one major in your face advantage, but when you add up all the little things, they do indeed ad up to a noticable difference. But like most things, you have to pilot them enough to get used to the little quirks to really notice and take advantage of them.

[PropagandaWar]

Roland, on 21 October 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

I





But in MWO, we've already seen that without any of those restrictions, medium mechs simply do not get used very often. They currently offer little reason to take them compared to light and heavy chassis. They are in an awkward spot, where they lack the agility of light mechs, but lack the firepower and armament of heavy mechs.


My own unit often ran 8 mans with 8 hunchbacks, largely for the lulz, and won most of our matches in that queue with that config.. but it wasn't really that the hunchbacks were extremely powerful mechs.

See this is where I think people get confused. They are quite powerful if built right. I'll take my hunchback SP. We found 5 meds and 2 SRM4's offered a good range of Firepower, Speed and Heat effeciency. Going 89kph with a standard engine, having a 1.37 heat eff good armor meant not shutting down when facing assaults and heavies who do seem to do it with reckless abandon. So much so that when they power back up they tend to be toast. It also meant you could usually throw down with 2 lights and either chase them away or kill them (Most games, some you just get jacked up or its a spider....). However you always hear from heavy and assault pilots the "oh {Scrap} I have a lights on me". I just think people have the mentality that bigger is better and a lot of times its not. I also think people playing the shadowhawk are discovering this. I do possibly agree with you though Roland it does need to be shrunk down a bit. However I have a feeling that its height keeps its hunch where I house my main weapons safer for some reason.

One other thing

[Roland]

Just so ya know Bishop, I have in fact mastered all medium mechs, because I've always greatly enjoyed driving them. I actually run them fairly often... so I'm not really speaking here as some kind of outsider who doesn't have experience with those chassis. And I'm sitting on a KD of 4.0 in my 2d2, so it's not that I've not enjoyed success with it.

But at the same time, I know that I'm going up against lots of fairly bad mechs right now, since so many folks are leveling up locusts and junk.

The shad has a nice JJ advantage in terms of agility, that makes it similar to a highlander in its ability to jump and spin, which definitely helps its agility. But it's also a very large, poorly armored target.

It's decent at soaking, largely due to its ability to disregard its arms entirely, but I still feel that once the novelty of the phoenix mechs calms down, and you see the normal meta of mostly heavy and assault mechs dominating the field, the shad will be weaker than you see currently.

Again, please don't think that I'm speaking as someone who doesn't like or doesn't use medium mechs.