60 replies to this topic

[Noosemane]

The engine size and hit detection changes are great. Lights are great. But now we're seeing more accurate examples of combat potential from the smaller mechs. It's becoming obvious that anything smaller than, and possibly including, the spider severely under performs in combat duties compared to the beefier and better armed lights. As such, it's time to go back to the drawing board for the scouting role. The question is then, how do we better incentivize the scout role so people will choose to do it and how can we increase the team play synergy.

Post suggestions, go!

[Soyaman]

Collect a list of the tasks a scouter do.

Then proceed to look at other games and how they did it.


Example:
Scouts could make use of the Tag. Why? It helps the bigger mechs who don't necessarily have time to run off when tagging someone if **** gets hot.
How do we benefit the light?

Well other games, let's take Battlefield give rewards for people who perform supportive tasks. The guy who sits behind the tank with a torch repairing it is getting a decent reward for his job. His job is not hard by any means, but it's necessary and takes a certain spirit to do.


So a light could be rewarded points (XP, cbills?) either the longer the tag is on the target, or the more missiles actually hit it (Or something in those lines)

[Charons Little Helper]

My solution is 3-fold. Not an easy or quick solution - but one that I think would be worth the effort on PGI's part.

1. Include AI controlled tanks/copters/rocket-trucks etc. Then, depending upon your mech's tonnage, your team gets a certain # of them. (The atlas would likely get none, while the locust would bring several along.)

2. Make the AI controlled tanks rather slow so that scouts can pin down their general area of a group of tanks without them changing position before their team can use said information.

3. Put all AI controlled vehicles under the control of their Lance / Company commander. This would make the commander position mean more, and they could use the scout info to put their AI vehicles in a better position.

Of note - this would also balance ballistics, as their ammo would be more limiting due to having to deal with the vehicles.

[BillyM]

Bigger maps and multiple possible drop-points.

--billyM

Edited by BillyM, 16 October 2013 - 08:19 AM.

[JSparrowist]

Noticeable increases in cbills and xp for targeting and tagging enemy mechs. I run my lights as loaded down with weapons as possible without sacrificing speed and I harass the ever loving hell out of the enemy. I would much RATHER scout and tag enemies for LRM fire but there just aren't any earnings in doing so.

[Wolfways]

Make LRM's only able to indirect fire on targets with a TAG or NARC on them, as in: http://mwomercs.com/...lrms-revisited/
Make TAG only visible in thermal view.

[DaZur]

Solution is simple... Make endgame "Team" score / rewards incentified by scout achievements.

I.e...

• Un-detected target / TAG with damage inflicted on target. +.01% bonus.
  
• Unopposed point capture +0.2% bonus.
  
• Force exposure (Number of enemy mechs targeted, TAGed, identified (Maybe a module to lock more than one target is in order?) +0.2%
  
• etc..etc..

In short, making the scouting bonus benefit the "team" versus the individual encourages the light driver to actually perform the scouting role. This way a good scout can impact the profitability / viability of the end-game and is less reliant upon inflicting damage and getting kills. Right now... damage and kills are king and the only way a light can contribute in a meaningful way.

Edited by DaZur, 16 October 2013 - 08:51 AM.

[Asakara]

I believe the best way is to put in integrated voice comms. It is much easier to say "5 assaults in B3 heading to B4" than it is to type it out in battle.

[General Taskeen]

Charons Little Helper, on 16 October 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

1. Include AI controlled tanks/copters/rocket-trucks etc. Then, depending upon your mech's tonnage, your team gets a certain # of them. (The atlas would likely get none, while the locust would bring several along.)

Better yet, put a player controlled Tank in the game that only I can pilot, in the game.

Wolfways, on 16 October 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Make LRM's only able to indirect fire on targets with a TAG or NARC on them, as in: http://mwomercs.com/...lrms-revisited/
Make TAG only visible in thermal view.

C3 Master Computers as well bro.

PGI made a woopsie in the early development of the game when they allowed any friendly Mech that sees something and targets it, any of their friends can also shoot missiles at them even if they don't have LOS. Never worked like in other Mech Warriors games, that I played anyway.

[Lefty Lucy]

General Taskeen, on 16 October 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

PGI made a woopsie in the early development of the game when they allowed any friendly Mech that sees something and targets it, any of their friends can also shoot missiles at them even if they don't have LOS. Never worked like in other Mech Warriors games, that I played anyway.

They were taking a cue from Battletech, where friendly mechs allow you to do exactly that for indirect LRM fire. Of course in Battletech LRMs didn't really require a "lock" per se, and indirect fire was significantly harder to hit with than direct fire, especially if the spotting mech wanted to fire its own weapons.

[Steelgrave]

Make seismic something only lights can carry and drastically reduce its cost to encourage them, so they can, you know, scout with it. Of course, people already have it on other mechs, so that's not likely to happen.

Perhaps even make it ping the enemy for the whole side (at least if they are never going to get around to public voip; not so big a deal in voip teams where they can just say where the targets are).

Perhaps increase the target sensor presence when spotted by light mechs (i.e. longer target icon retention after L.O.S. is lost, kinda how like Longbow Apache's paint the targets last known position with millimeter-wave fire-control radar)

Maybe even make upgrades available to them for lights (like target weight class ID on the map/icon).

[Lefty Lucy]

Steelgrave, on 16 October 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

Make seismic something only lights can carry and drastically reduce its cost to encourage them, so they can, you know, scout with it. Of course, people already have it on other mechs, so that's not likely to happen.

Perhaps even make it ping the enemy for the whole side (at least if they are never going to get around to public voip; not so big a deal in voip teams where they can just say where the targets are).

Perhaps increase the target sensor presence when spotted by light mechs (i.e. longer target icon retention after L.O.S. is lost, kinda how like Longbow Apache's paint the targets last known position with millimeter-wave fire-control radar)

Maybe even make upgrades available to them for lights (like target weight class ID on the map/icon).

They *could have* and *should have* used the pilot lab and module system to create role warfare where the mechlab and construction systems have always failed, both in battletech and mechwarrior. They could have made it so only certain mech classes can have certain module slots. However, they have not, and it's kind of too late. Imagine the uproar if they said "everyone's xp resets to zero so we can implement role warfare." Sure, those of us who are hard core about game balance would love it. However, the vast majority of players would simply see PGI taking something away from them, something that they "earned."

[Noosemane]

JSparrowist, on 16 October 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

Noticeable increases in cbills and xp for targeting and tagging enemy mechs. I run my lights as loaded down with weapons as possible without sacrificing speed and I harass the ever loving hell out of the enemy. I would much RATHER scout and tag enemies for LRM fire but there just aren't any earnings in doing so.

This was the first thing that came to mind for me as well. The problem is determining what the values you in relation to the effort it takes to spot and tag. I think there's going to need to be a a threshold or else the only thing people will contribute to a battle is a few spots and tags then move on.

Perhaps making the bonus based upon contribution to the team would be a good way to improve the system, IE the longer you hold the tag or the spot vs. the amount of damage the rest of your team does to the target. This way, you're contributing to the overall success of the team by putting yourself in relative danger by keeping on target instead of tagging or spotting, grabbing some points, then running away.

[Noosemane]

Lefty Lucy, on 16 October 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

They *could have* and *should have* used the pilot lab and module system to create role warfare where the mechlab and construction systems have always failed, both in battletech and mechwarrior. They could have made it so only certain mech classes can have certain module slots. However, they have not, and it's kind of too late. Imagine the uproar if they said "everyone's xp resets to zero so we can implement role warfare." Sure, those of us who are hard core about game balance would love it. However, the vast majority of players would simply see PGI taking something away from them, something that they "earned."

I agree they should redo the modules. And I do not think it's too late. Updates happen. If they have to they'll need to refund players and let them repurchase their modules.

Restricting module use is one of the most sensible suggestions I've heard in a while if it means better reinforcement of role warfare.

Edited by MoarDakka, 16 October 2013 - 09:58 AM.

[Zyllos]

Wolfways, on 16 October 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Make LRM's only able to indirect fire on targets with a TAG or NARC on them, as in: http://mwomercs.com/...lrms-revisited/
Make TAG only visible in thermal view.

General Taskeen, on 16 October 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

C3 Master Computers as well bro.

PGI made a woopsie in the early development of the game when they allowed any friendly Mech that sees something and targets it, any of their friends can also shoot missiles at them even if they don't have LOS. Never worked like in other Mech Warriors games, that I played anyway.

These two on so many levels.

[stjobe]

How about the TAGging/spotting 'mech splits the rewards with the firing 'mech? Half the points for damage/kill/assist to the TAGger/spotter, half to the firer?

At least for indirect fire that would be a boon; the rewards are zero at the moment.

[Matthoos]

Some of my idea's to make scouting more fun/beneficial:

- Make TAG and spotting more beneficial for the lights class, ex. more of a C-bill bonus than 1200...
- Make capturing points more beneficial ex., add pilot/GXP for capping points, or offer C-bills for assisting/solo capping
- Allow for more ECM usage on Lights, and less on the heavier mechs, or on lights only
- Make it harder to spot the smaller mechs from a distance, ex. you have to be within said KM to even target them

Just a few things I think might help.
It is ridiculous that you can get shot to hell from 3+ LRM boats as a light by being seen from 700+ KM away and do nothing but hope to get out of LOS, or run for cover.
It's also silly that as a light, you have to run in and brawl with all the heavies and assaults.
As a Locust player now, that's impossible to do w/o being killed in <5 seconds.

[Krivvan]

Spotting is not Scouting.

Anyways, I don't believe anything should be done. Scouting is already a vital part of organized matches.

You can increase rewards for being the first to target an enemy mech (when it assigns them the A,B,C, etc. designations). That would incentivize scouting in pug games. Speed and ECM already are making the less combat-worthy lights more suitable for scouting and/or other roles. Except the Locust, that thing is useless. At the very least give it more module slots.

Under no circumstances should "role" rewards be given to specific mech classes.

[wintersborn]

There is no reward for scouting in this game.
PGI obviously does not want anything other than a Kill & Damage based gameplay.

12 man PUG's = CB/XP grind.

[Krivvan]

wintersborn, on 16 October 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

There is no reward for scouting in this game.

The current reward for scouting is not immediately losing to a base cap or being caught in a really bad position and flanked.

If it needs more, just add the reward for being the first to target an enemy and assigning it a letter designation.