143 replies to this topic

[Shepherd]

I agree with the basics of the OP's post.

engine, armor, equipment, all of that is welded on for good. In some cases this even includes weapons (Puma/Adder is a 35 ton light skirmisher with omni pods in the arms and a fixed small laser in the torso, if I recall correctly).

I disagree that omni pods need a complex algorithm. They need to simply decide how many hardpoints will be in each pod and give the pod that many hardpoints. Some mechs will have crazy omni pods, some will have more modest omni pods.

Finally, the whole variant thing doesn't fly with Omnis. With IS mechs they've been releasing 3+ variants for each chassis, and the XP system is tied into that 3-mech situation. Omnis are made specifically to be quickly refitted for different battlefield roles, so they should only have one copy of each chassis. The variants (Prime, A, B, C, D, etc.) are just that - variations on the base chassis. Just like you can take your Atlas-D-DC and equip it for long range, then next battle equip it for short range. They'll need to come up with a different system for XP on Omnis if they do this, of course. Heck they could get away with charging triple C-Bills because your one Omni takes the spot of 3 IS variants.

[pbiggz]

What i meant with "variants" is (provided chassis are completely unmodifiable and there are no exceptions), they could have different versions of the same omni mech with varied equipment fixed to the chassis, and this would effectively replace the "revert to battlemech rules" whilst minimizing the amount of design necessary to make the pilot lab compatible with omni mechs.

[kevin roshak]

pbiggz, on 16 October 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

For the sake of making this game not a total headache, I mentioned that while equipment should be puretech, weaponry should be mixed tech, as anything else will just add convolution to an already intimidating-to-newbies system. That and there are plenty of IS and clan battlemechs that make use of mixed tech weapons, the easiest way to implement that is to do away with the idea that only omni-pod weapons can fit in omni-mechs.

These mechs are few and far between, most being specific variants many years into the Clan Invasion, or well after the Clans had settled into the Inner Sphere. And if everyone could use Clan weps, it would just invalidate 50% of the games arsenal, which PGI has proved they wont do via the LBX functionality.

[MisterPlanetarian]

Personally I'd rather see omni mechs done so that they have only one base, stock variant with a preset few omnipods. Instead of purchasing different variants I'd rather see cbills spent being on the omnipods themselves. Omnimech XP trees could be revolving around unlocking different weapon pods making them rewarding to play and specialize in.

Now: PGI has said they will not follow clantech to a T. However, all stock loadouts will require current clan weapon weights to work otherwise they will need a complete rework. So i am assuming PGI's approach to balancing clans won't be in attacking the weightsavings but rather damage numbers, heat and range etc.


For example if you buy a Direwolf, blam your wallet gets set to 0 again because you spent 29.35 million on a mech and what did we get?

*Engine is set in stone
*Electronics are set in stone (This means no ECM, BAP or even Artemis)
*Structure and Armor is set in stone
*DHS are set in stone.(not that you'd ever change them)

*You get 2 arm omnipods with 2 energy hardpoints each to match the 4 ERLL.
*You get a pair of side torso pods with 4 energy and 2 ballistic +1 missile hardpoints split between them.

You could then choose to purchase omnipods for the arms with for example 1 or 2 ballistic hardpoints, with or without arm acutations and so on if you want to run a ballistics boat. The pods you buy for the direwolf can only fit a mech of the same weight so a direwolf omnipod won't fit on a Madcat Mk II for example.

If you do it that way or in a somewhat similar way Omnimechs won't be too powerful since they can't for example fit a 400 XL and a pair of UAC20's on it. Stuff like Endo Steel or the lack of it would prevent excessive builds aswell.

Edited by MisterPlanetarian, 17 October 2013 - 12:15 AM.

[pbiggz]

kevin roshak, on 16 October 2013 - 09:23 PM, said:

These mechs are few and far between, most being specific variants many years into the Clan Invasion, or well after the Clans had settled into the Inner Sphere. And if everyone could use Clan weps, it would just invalidate 50% of the games arsenal, which PGI has proved they wont do via the LBX functionality.

If they actually manage to bring clan weapons anywhere near a balance point with the inner sphere, then mixed weapons are no problem.

MisterPlanetarian, on 17 October 2013 - 12:10 AM, said:

Now: PGI has said they will not follow clantech to a T. However, all stock loadouts will require current clan weapon weights to work otherwise they will need a complete rework. So i am assuming PGI's approach to balancing clans won't be in attacking the weightsavings but rather damage numbers, heat and range etc.


For example if you buy a Direwolf, blam your wallet gets set to 0 again because you spent 29.35 million on a mech and what did we get?

*Engine is set in stone
*Electronics are set in stone (This means no ECM, BAP or even Artemis)
*Structure and Armor is set in stone
*DHS are set in stone.(not that you'd ever change them)

*You get 2 arm omnipods with 2 energy hardpoints each to match the 4 ERLL.
*You get a pair of side torso pods with 4 energy and 2 ballistic +1 missile hardpoints split between them.

You could then choose to purchase omnipods for the arms with for example 1 or 2 ballistic hardpoints, with or without arm acutations and so on if you want to run a ballistics boat. The pods you buy for the direwolf can only fit a mech of the same weight so a direwolf omnipod won't fit on a Madcat Mk II for example.

If you do it that way or in a somewhat similar way Omnimechs won't be too powerful since they can't for example fit a 400 XL and a pair of UAC20's on it. Stuff like Endo Steel or the lack of it would prevent excessive builds aswell.

I agree with most of this, but i doubt they will make omni mechs much more expensive then battlemechs. The trade off of unmodifiable internals is actually a rather major setback for omni mechs and it might make the elevated cost not worth it for pilots that could optimize their builds with IS tech.

[Finestaut]

I'm fairly confident that the concepts of "omni hardpoint" and "omni pod" will never appear in this game. Hardpoint limitations are simply too important for overall balance in the grand scheme of things, and they make things far easier on the art team.

My theory: Omnimechs will be assigned hardpoints corresponding to their "prime" configuration, using logic just as restrictive as the current battlemech hardpoint assignment, perhaps more. Alternate lettered configs will be additional unlocks on an omnimech chassis, with hardpoints derived from their loadouts. You'll be able to save 1 loadout per alt config, and switch them at will. The magic part comes in when they implement the dropship: an omnimech, and all of your unlocked configs, will only take up 1 dropship slot, and you'll be able to select from all your stored loadouts after the map and mission have been selected.

This respects the lore, by giving omnimechs a major logistic/operational advantage, while still operating within the present parameters of game balance. It also creates "variants" which players can progress across.

[pbiggz]

I'm not sure about that, i think the most important thing about clan tech has to be that it's different. Not completely different, but different enough to change the battlefield (not set it off balance).

[lonewolfsx]

daneiel varna, on 16 October 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

Then lets make the Battlemechs proper first !!!!! The battlemech must be much more limited for customisation -> like hard point sizes and cost for any changes on them and mech lock for some time after changes too !!!!

I haven't played or posted in a long time, but I've popped in to see what's new. And I'll go ahead and say, PLEASE PLEASE NO for removing even more customization in mechs. The engine limit is already {Scrap}, as well as the usual suspects that are still around MONTHS after I stopped playing (ECM, and now ghost heat and other weird things). From what I've gathered though, the balance of this game is the best it has ever been, and I'm truly excited about that. There will inevitably be some issues introducing clan tech, but the key here is to segregate the systems, not inhibit omnimechs with a bunch of additional penalties.

By segregate, I mean force matches to allow only certain mechs as we could do in previous mechwarrior games.
For example, allow matches like so:

Gametype: Dropship, Battle, Conquest, CTF, whatever gametypes they add (if any...)
-and-
Weight class: All Light, All Medium, All Heavy, All Assault, or Mixed/Any Tonnage
-and-
Tech Level: Clan Tech/Mechs only, IS Tech/Mechs only, Or...Clan vs IS:

For Clan vs IS matches: force clan mechs on one team against IS mechs on another team, and scale it in a way so that IS mechs have favored numbers and weight wise. So say, in a 20 player match, instead of 10v10 as in other types it should be something like 9v11 or 8v12 depending on the total team weights. (Obviously 8v12 could be fair, but not if all 12 IS mechs are assaults). In general, the IS team will have more mechs. However, this won't always be the case as say, an IS team of 6 assaults may end up facing 9 clan light mechs or something like that.
EDIT 2: Perhaps do a "trial run" of this gametype, not saving statistics (so that no one is offended) and allow some trial mechs both clan and IS to be used, or maybe even slightly customized. Then, allow it to run for a week or two with a certain ratio, and gauge the win/loss ratio of clans. If clans are more frequently winning, adjust it to try to get closer to a 50/50 split there. Boom, problem solved.

That would make the clan vs IS matches extremely interesting, and would actually follow the lore in two respects:
1- Clans in general have far superior tech to IS, and this remains intact as clan weapons wouldn't have to be balanced into the ground to play fair with IS builds
2- Clans, in any invasion battle as well as any trials against the IS (grievance for example), would have fewer mechs either due to the IS population on the planet they are invading or in the case of trials, the ego / underbidding like a boss / etc clan culture would mean less mechs or lower total team tonnage in those situations.

Obviously the ratios and such would have to be balanced to some degree, and depending on the number of players would require some adjustments (for example, forcing a player to exit or change mechs in game if a suitable opposing player isn't found or something to make it fair).

Ideally, this would mean that each player would have a small stable of mechs, but everyone would have a clan mech, and IS mech, and probably a mixed mech or a build in mind for a mixed tech mech (why don't we have the ability to save and load configs yet...!). F2P types would be more limited, and would probably invest in whichever tech they feel comfortable with, but then "power player" types would probably have extensive labs filled with light/med/heavy/assault classes of both IS and Clan tech to compete in varying gametypes as they see fit.


EDIT: I'm sure that none of these things will ever make it though. As said above me, Clan mechs will most likely be assigned hardpoints based on their various default configurations (such as Mad Dog Prime, A, B, C... etc). Clan weapons will likely weigh slightly less but generate more heat, and will simply offer a different option from IS weapon and not necessarily be "better," and people will probably end up playing "mercenary" style utilizing whichever weapons they thing work best in their respective builds, regardless of the origin of the tech. Womp womp, depressing, boring.

Edited by lonewolfsx, 20 October 2013 - 06:16 PM.

[CrashieJ]

Omni mechs have several limitations

1. Engine
Engines are Hard wired into the frame

2. Endosteel/FerroFiber
Also Hardwired

3.electronics (ECM BAP)
can be hardwired depending on mech

-these 3 limitations are enough to start the basis of balance by decreasing limitations in some areas and increasing limitations in others

PLAYER CHOICE, IT'S WHAT MAKES GAMES BETTER

[CyclonerM]

gavilatius, on 20 October 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Omni mechs have several limitations

1. Engine
Engines are Hard wired into the frame

2. Endosteel/FerroFiber
Also Hardwired

3.electronics (ECM BAP)
can be hardwired depending on mech

-these 3 limitations are enough to start the basis of balance by decreasing limitations in some areas and increasing limitations in others

PLAYER CHOICE, IT'S WHAT MAKES GAMES BETTER

This^

[Finestaut]

gavilatius, on 20 October 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Omni mechs have several limitations
1. Engine
2. Endosteel/FerroFiber
3.electronics (ECM BAP)
can be hardwired depending on mech
-these 3 limitations are enough to start the basis of balance by decreasing limitations in some areas and increasing limitations in others

While this has an attractive symmetry and elegance, it's not balanced by a long shot. Many omnimechs come preloaded with an ideal, or close-to-idea engine, so losing the ability to modify it doesn't hurt too much. ECM is effectively an auto-include for any 'mech that can take it, so hardwiring it doesn't hurt your customizability at all.

The only one of those that counts is the endo/ferro limitation. Now consider that those techs only buy you a few tons, and many omnimechs come preloaded with one or both. Also consider that, no matter what they do to clan weapons, their light weight and small size is probably sacrosanct. So the real "trade off" for the omnimech you describe is "3-5 tons (sometimes) for unlimited hardpoints."

I'd take that trade any day of the week. And if I took a Timber Wolf (preloaded with Endo, Ferro, and a nearly perfect 375 XL), I won't even HAVE to. I'll just take my no-limits pod space.

[CrashieJ]

Finestaut, on 21 October 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

While this has an attractive symmetry and elegance, it's not balanced by a long shot. Many omnimechs come preloaded with an ideal, or close-to-idea engine, so losing the ability to modify it doesn't hurt too much. ECM is effectively an auto-include for any 'mech that can take it, so hardwiring it doesn't hurt your customizability at all.

The only one of those that counts is the endo/ferro limitation. Now consider that those techs only buy you a few tons, and many omnimechs come preloaded with one or both. Also consider that, no matter what they do to clan weapons, their light weight and small size is probably sacrosanct. So the real "trade off" for the omnimech you describe is "3-5 tons (sometimes) for unlimited hardpoints."

I'd take that trade any day of the week. And if I took a Timber Wolf (preloaded with Endo, Ferro, and a nearly perfect 375 XL), I won't even HAVE to. I'll just take my no-limits pod space.

true, that and sheer cost may drive away some buyers (more likely new players than bank-holders).

we need to find another way to balance them out.

how do you feel about BattleValue? I think it's crude and very wishy-washy, but it does have a set and easy to understand equation that is very good against a "complicated" game like Mechwarrior

[Finestaut]

gavilatius, on 21 October 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

true, that and sheer cost may drive away some buyers (more likely new players than bank-holders).

we need to find another way to balance them out.

how do you feel about BattleValue? I think it's crude and very wishy-washy, but it does have a set and easy to understand equation that is very good against a "complicated" game like Mechwarrior

BV is a point-buy system. We already have a point-buy system in the mechlab, with tons, crits, and hardpoints limiting what you can take. BV is only useful if you can't balance based on tons, crits, and hardpoints. If we want to bring BV into the discussion, we need to talk about clan weapons, not just omnimechs.

I still hold that, if you assign omnimechs hardpoints, but let omni owners save loadouts and pick them late, you've effectively modeled the advantages of omnimechs, without significantly breaking the game. And that's the whole point of this thread.

[Joseph Mallan]

gavilatius, on 20 October 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

PLAYER CHOICE, IT'S WHAT MAKES GAMES BETTER

But by choosing Clan you have chosen to accept these limitations. You made a choice.

[pbiggz]

Finestaut, on 21 October 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

While this has an attractive symmetry and elegance, it's not balanced by a long shot. Many omnimechs come preloaded with an ideal, or close-to-idea engine, so losing the ability to modify it doesn't hurt too much. ECM is effectively an auto-include for any 'mech that can take it, so hardwiring it doesn't hurt your customizability at all.

The only one of those that counts is the endo/ferro limitation. Now consider that those techs only buy you a few tons, and many omnimechs come preloaded with one or both. Also consider that, no matter what they do to clan weapons, their light weight and small size is probably sacrosanct. So the real "trade off" for the omnimech you describe is "3-5 tons (sometimes) for unlimited hardpoints."

I'd take that trade any day of the week. And if I took a Timber Wolf (preloaded with Endo, Ferro, and a nearly perfect 375 XL), I won't even HAVE to. I'll just take my no-limits pod space.

Once again, consider the kitfox, a heavily armed light mech with a max speed of only 97 kph, whilst most lights go 150+? Or the direwolf, a premier assault mech that only reaches 54 kph, whilst most brawling ddcs go 60+

You've pointed out the ideal cases but not the less than ideal ones. Mind you, with the direwolf you're trading off speed for nearly 51 tonnes of pod space, whilst the kit fox can carry a similar loadout to a medium mech.

Edited by pbiggz, 22 October 2013 - 07:34 AM.

[dal10]

pbiggz, on 22 October 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

Once again, consider the kitfox, a heavily armed light mech with a max speed of only 97 kph, whilst most lights go 150+? Or the direwolf, a premier assault mech that only reaches 54 kph, whilst most brawling ddcs go 60+

You've pointed out the ideal cases but not the less than ideal ones. Mind you, with the direwolf you're trading off speed for nearly 51 tonnes of pod space, whilst the kit fox can carry a similar loadout to a medium mech.

honestly i would rather take a fast mech with less firepower than a slow mech with a lot. the kit fox will basically be gimped by not being able to move fast enough to survive with limited armor.

[Genesis Rex]

I agree with both the OP and mwhighlander. Your thoughts on balancing OmniMechs and Clan tech are some of the best I've seen to date.

However, I think we can balance IS v Clan fights in matchmaking without really needing to tweak the way equipment and weapons work.

As was mentioned earlier in the thread the idea of two Clan Stars vs three IS Lances should be the way to go. Not only does it provide a solution to the Clan's superior swag that doesn't leave the Clanners feeling nerfed, but it also represents a canonical take on how the Clans treat warfare--they simply bid low to win greater honor.

To add to the discussion: how would we feel about two separate garages when the Clans are unleashed? And the only way for IS mechs to acquire Clan weapons would be through salvage (e.g. IS player wants Clan PPCs, so they must kill a Clan player who is running an Omni with that weapon system).

[pbiggz]

The problem with numerical balancing like that is it never works. Omni mechs and clan tech are going to be nerfed, that's pgi's stance. Also, what happens when a merc company fields 12 warriors outfitted fully with clan tech that they salvaged. You may as well throw numerical balancing out the window at that point, the system is not robust enough to handle every instance in which clan tech faces is tech.

[Lokesh]

daneiel varna, on 16 October 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

Then lets make the Battlemechs proper first !!!!! The battlemech must be much more limited for customisation -> like hard point sizes and cost for any changes on them and mech lock for some time after changes too !!!!

This covers it. The mechlab that we have now means that our IS mechs are omnimechs. You can equip just about anything and make changes without huge investments of time and money. There is little to balance with the addition of clans aside from slightly better equipment. We already have an omnimech mechanic.

Frankly the best balanc would be high repair and refit cost on clan tech (you did after all have to salavage it from the field of battle) - maybe even make clan mechs a destroyable asset. This would encourage people to use them strategically and not bring them to every match.

Edited by Lokesh, 22 October 2013 - 07:50 AM.

[Jyaksus]

For the sake of easy understanding, I would say that an Omni Slot is just like any other kind of slot, ballistics are yellow, missiles are green, energy is red, and Omni is blue. Omni slots can fit any kind of weapon; energy, missile, or ballistic. You can cram whatever you want in an omni slot, but each omni slot is restricted by its own size, let's say Omni-2, Omni-5, Omni-7, and Omni-10.

In this way, while a Catapult can drop machine guns and pick up Gauss Rifles, a Madcat's torso omni slots would only be 2s, so it could be an AC2, SRM6, or Large Laser, but no PPCs or Gauss Rifles.

This emphasizes the clan habit of having LOTS of different weapons to fire, where an IS mech tends towards fewer, heavier guns. Canon becomes meta-efficient, but customization is still available on a large scale.