104 replies to this topic

[Gwydion Ward]

Ive seen quite a few people complaining about how the Locus is useless as even a scout since it has no ECM ability, or jumpjets... or, well, anything that makes a scout a 'scout' for that matter.

But, i'll leave that discussion to the other threads already started.

My request is a lowering of the Heatsink Requirements on all of the Locust Engions.

Requiring a 20 ton mech to spend between 1/5 to 1/3 of its overall tonnage to Heatsinks (befor you even add any armor) when it dosnt even have the capability to carry anything that Generates that much heat. Is just... odd.

Thats all i can say about it, its odd.

My Current 1V(P) has 4mg's, 1 medium laser.... and thats it. I cant fit an AMS + one box of ammo on it due to the weight limit. I could take the ml off it, but then im 100% limited to how much MG ammo i can carry with no non-ammo based weapon to use afterwards. (which would honestly be hilarious, as i'd be running around with 4 Heatsinks.. and no energy weapon at all)

And even to fit those 4 MG's and the single ML, i had to strip most of its extremity armor off + use an XL engion.

Now, im not asking for a 'big' change. Not asking for there to be a 0 HS requirement. But maybe knock down the HS requirement by 1 or 2? (ie: XL 160 requiring 2 or 3, instead of 4. STD 105's requiring 4 or 5 instead of 6)

Just that 1 or 2 extra ton's will free up the Mech slightly so that its more 'build-friendly'.

It's either that, or take some of those "The Locus NEEDS ECM" ect. threads that are asking for it to be given.... you know... 'scout' ability's.

Thoughts?

Edited by Rhapsody Repine, 15 October 2013 - 01:52 PM.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

It's a 20 ton mech, it's supposed to suck. Anyone that thought it was going to "redefine the meta" was being delusional. It's there for when you want to play on hard mode; there are plenty of other (heavier) mechs that fall into the same category, and there always will be.

[Jakob Knight]

Welcome to running a 20 ton battlemech, the lightest possible mech. You don't get to mount much of anything, and when you max out your weapons, something else has to give.

The engine/heatsink requirement is something a little different from the original rules in that PGI is forcing people to pay for their 'free' engine heat sinks in tonnage as well as crits, and this is the problem here. You would still have to allocate some of the heat sinks that come with the engine as critical locations if it were below a certain point, but it seem the Devs changed this somewhat to suit their own tastes in what BT should have been.

This would have to be a universal rule, however, as all battlemechs have to be constructed under the same rules, or you open the door to 'supra-mecha'. It would still benefit light mechs most, but it should not be restricted to only one chassis or any one weight class if it is to be done.

Lastly, remember the Locust is not a combat unit. It is not supposed to be facing off against other battlemechs but scouting and other 'soft target' objectives. Taking it into combat is at the risk of the pilot and with full knowledge they are not using the mech for what it is designed for.

[Deathlike]

Nope.

You got what you paid for... a mech naturally deficient of heatsinks.

The lack of ECM is astounding though.

[Gwydion Ward]

*sighs* again..i KNOW its a 20 ton mech. But even at 20 tons, simply trying to 'fit' it with anything is almost impossible.

Im not asking to make the thing = to that of an assault mech, or remove 'all' HS restrictions, or give it more 'slots' (if anything it could do with LESS slots, as what it does have is excess of what it can actually do anything with). Just give it 1 or 2 extra ton's of 'use'. Thats it.

[Unusual Suspect]

They should grant the option until there's a role besides "combat" that is rewarded.

[Khobai]

Quote

[color=#959595]It's a 20 ton mech, it's [/color]supposed[color=#959595] to suck.[/color]

Then why is it even in the game? if its supposed to suck then theres no reason for it to exist.

For the locusts existence to be validated it has to be equal to a Jenner. That doesnt mean it needs to be equal in combat. But it needs to be able to contribute equally to its team winning... even if it means performing non-combat roles.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

Rhapsody Repine, on 15 October 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

*sighs* again..i KNOW its a 20 ton mech. But even at 20 tons, simply trying to 'fit' it with anything is almost impossible.

Im not asking to make the thing = to that of an assault mech, or remove 'all' HS restrictions, or give it more 'slots' (if anything it could do with LESS slots, as what it does have is excess of what it can actually do anything with). Just give it 1 or 2 extra ton's of 'use'. Thats it.

I think the point people are trying to make is that if you want a few extra tons... you'll have to take a heavier mech. My Dragons and Awesomes could also make very good use of a "few extra tons" as well, but that doesn't mean they should get them.

It is what it is.

Khobai, on 15 October 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

Then why is it even in the game? if its supposed to suck then theres no reason for it to exist.

For the locusts existence to be validated it has to be equal to a Jenner. That doesnt mean it needs to be equal in combat. But it needs to be able to contribute equally to its team winning... even if it means performing non-combat roles.

You could say that about a lot of mechs, at least 1-2 or more in each weight class. Why should a locust be equal to a jenner if the dragon isn't equal to a cataphract? Or an awesome equal to an atlas?

Something will always be on the bottom. Anyone that thought the locust wouldn't take that slot for lights wasn't really thinking things through.

Edited by Warrax the Chaos Warrior, 15 October 2013 - 02:19 PM.

[Zyllos]

Jakob Knight, on 15 October 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

The engine/heatsink requirement is something a little different from the original rules in that PGI is forcing people to pay for their 'free' engine heat sinks in tonnage as well as crits, and this is the problem here. You would still have to allocate some of the heat sinks that come with the engine as critical locations if it were below a certain point, but it seem the Devs changed this somewhat to suit their own tastes in what BT should have been.

Please, do not perpetuate this myth.

There is absolutely no difference between MWO and CBT engine weight differences to outside heatsinks needed.

The only difference between MWO and CBT, is that the cockpit and gyro weights have been added to engines, then the weights of heatsinks needed outside the engine was subtracted.

This means for the engine type, rating, and 10 base heatsinks, have the absolute same weight and critical slots taken in both MWO and CBT.

The only engine that does not follow this is the 100 XL (I believe, have to go back and check my numbers again) because it would technically have "negative" weight.

EDIT: This is not to say that I agree with what PGI did, I don't. But their implementation makes the numbers correct.

Edited by Zyllos, 15 October 2013 - 02:17 PM.

[OneEyed Jack]

Jakob Knight, on 15 October 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

Welcome to running a 20 ton battlemech, the lightest possible mech. You don't get to mount much of anything, and when you max out your weapons, something else has to give.

The engine/heatsink requirement is something a little different from the original rules in that PGI is forcing people to pay for their 'free' engine heat sinks in tonnage as well as crits, and this is the problem here. You would still have to allocate some of the heat sinks that come with the engine as critical locations if it were below a certain point, but it seem the Devs changed this somewhat to suit their own tastes in what BT should have been.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

All they changed was the method, not the requirements or tonnage. In MWO, the discounted the small engine weight by the amount you'd have to spend on the extra heat sinks.

[Khobai]

Quote

You could say that about a lot of mechs, at least 1-2 or more in each weight class. Why should a locust be equal to a jenner if the dragon isn't equal to a cataphract? Or an awesome equal to an atlas?

Thats my point. All those mechs should be equal. Thats why PGI needs to add mech quirks to give each chassis unique bonuses.

[Gwydion Ward]

Warrax the Chaos Warrior, on 15 October 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

I think the point people are trying to make is that if you want a few extra tons... you'll have to take a heavier mech. My Dragons and Awesomes could also make very good use of a "few extra tons" as well, but that doesn't mean they should get them.

It is what it is.

Here's the thing though. Open up your Dragon and Awesome. Click on its engine. Do you see Anywhere that it states "Requires # of Heatsinks". You wont.

Open up a Jenner. Same thing.. No Heatsink Requirement.

It seems only the Locust has this 'magical' requirement on it. Not even the other Phoenix Mech's have it.

Combine this 'enforced' restriction, With the fact that is 'is' 20 tones. Pluss the fact that it has absolutly 0 'scout' ability, other than the ability to run fast. And you'll start to understand.

Yes the mech is listed at 20 Tons. But in reality, its Not. Its a 14-16 tone mech. As those last 6-4 tones are 'required' to be filled with Heatsinks. (The number of HS required being decided by the Engine you use)


giving us 1 or 2 extra tons of leeway isnt going to let us run around with AC20's or anything. As the larger the weapon you carry, the less ammo you'll be able to bring with you as well. What it 'will' do though, is let us use light-weapons.. and actually carry enough of them to do something 'other' than park on a ridge with a TAG and pepper anyone that comes close with 1 single mg.

Edited by Rhapsody Repine, 15 October 2013 - 02:39 PM.

[FupDup]

Just make it so the base 10 required sinks are all built into the engine, so this tiny little guy won't be unfairly taxed of crit slots just because he's already weak.

[Khobai]

Quote

Open up a Jenner. Same thing.. No Heatsink Requirement.

Jenners have 300 engines so they already get their 10 heatsinks built-in.

The problem comes in with mechs that have engine caps lower than 250. Namely the Commando and Locust.

[wintersborn]

I like the looks of the mech but it sucks plain and simple.

There is no reason to use the mech over a spider other than looks, period!

It needs ECM at a min and the spiders hit box needs to be fixed.

[LauLiao]

Rhapsody Repine, on 15 October 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

Here's the thing though. Open up your Dragon and Awesome. Click on its engine. Do you see Anywhere that it states "Requires # of Heatsinks". You wont.

Open up a Jenner. Same thing.. No Heatsink Requirement.

It seems only the Locust has this 'magical' requirement on it. Not even the other Phoenix Mech's have it.

Combine this 'enforced' restriction, With the fact that is 'is' 20 tones. Pluss the fact that it has absolutly 0 'scout' ability, other than the ability to run fast. And you'll start to understand.

Yes the mech is listed at 20 Tons. But in reality, its Not. Its a 14-16 tone mech. As those last 6-4 tones are 'required' to be filled with Heatsinks. (The number of HS required being decided by the Engine you use)


giving us 1 or 2 extra tons of leeway isnt going to let us run around with AC20's or anything. As the larger the weapon you carry, the less ammo you'll be able to bring with you as well. What it 'will' do though, is let us use light-weapons.. and actually carry enough of them to do something 'other' than park on a ridge with a TAG and pepper anyone that comes close with 1 single mg.

Some people get it, some people don't.

Edited by LauLiao, 15 October 2013 - 02:45 PM.

[Gwydion Ward]

Just for Reference.

Here's my current 1V(P): LCT-1V

Look at 'all' of that empty space. Nearly 2/3 of the mech is left empty. Now, im not saying i should be able to fill up every single slot on the mech. But there's 4 heatsinks there, that are taking up 4 tons, + 4 slots. That may seem like a 'small' penalty, but As you have all pointed out. Its a 'light' mech. Anything done to chop out its legs ontop of it already being small is just stupid.

Its already small, It already has a light tonnage limit. Why in he world would you take away 4-6 MORE tones then the pitiful amount it already has?

Edited by Rhapsody Repine, 15 October 2013 - 02:51 PM.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

Rhapsody Repine, on 15 October 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

Here's the thing though. Open up your Dragon and Awesome. Click on its engine. Do you see Anywhere that it states "Requires # of Heatsinks". You wont.

Open up a Jenner. Same thing.. No Heatsink Requirement.

It seems only the Locust has this 'magical' requirement on it. Not even the other Phoenix Mech's have it.

Combine this 'enforced' restriction, With the fact that is 'is' 20 tones. Pluss the fact that it has absolutly 0 'scout' ability, other than the ability to run fast. And you'll start to understand.

Yes the mech is listed at 20 Tons. But in reality, its Not. Its a 14-16 tone mech. As those last 6-4 tones are 'required' to be filled with Heatsinks. (The number of HS required being decided by the Engine you use)


giving us 1 or 2 extra tons of leeway isnt going to let us run around with AC20's or anything. As the larger the weapon you carry, the less ammo you'll be able to bring with you as well. What it 'will' do though, is let us use light-weapons.. and actually carry enough of them to do something 'other' than park on a ridge with a TAG and pepper anyone that comes close with 1 single mg.

Incorrect sir or madam.

All mechs require a minimum of 10 heat sinks. It's just that you only "see" the requirement when you use a tiny engine, and tiny mechs get tiny engines. I run a few hunchbacks with engines smaller than 250, and you are required to add heatsinks to those as well. So there's nothing special about the locust, it's built by the same rules as everything else.

Khobai, on 15 October 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

Thats my point. All those mechs should be equal. Thats why PGI needs to add mech quirks to give each chassis unique bonuses.

They won't be, and they can't be. If every mech was equal, than there would be no reason to even have more than one in the game. Like I said before, there is always going to be a "best" and a "worst". And that's fine really, it's what keeps things interesting. You'd get bored really fast if everything was equal.

Edited by Warrax the Chaos Warrior, 15 October 2013 - 02:50 PM.

[FupDup]

Warrax the Chaos Warrior, on 15 October 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

They won't be, and they can't be. If every mech was equal, than there would be no reason to even have more than one in the game. Like I said before, there is always going to be a "best" and a "worst". And that's fine really, it's what keeps things interesting. You'd get bored really fast if everything was equal.

"Equal" is a misleading word to use, as it implies homogeneity and sameness. What Khobai really means is an "asymmetrical" kind of equality in that each mech simply contributes to the team's victory. Not all mechs contribute in the same way, which is where the difference comes from. For instance, whether you're an LRM boat, PPC sniper, autocannon brawler, or whatever, you're helping your team win with your unique and individual set of talents.

If we have a "best" and and a "worst," what we're going to see is that a very large proportion of the population will gravitate towards the best because most players are playing to win and aren't here for the pleasantries. We've seen this in every meta this game has ever seen: the Raven 3L, Splatcats, Jagerbombs, Quad PPC Stalkers, LRM boats during the Lurmageddon patches, and so on. Feel free to disagree, but I think that most players copy-and-pasting each other's loadouts and tactics is a lot more boring and a lot less interesting than an environment where tens of hundreds of choices each have their own redeeming qualities, and none are overused or underused.

Edited by FupDup, 15 October 2013 - 02:58 PM.

[Gwydion Ward]

Warrax the Chaos Warrior, on 15 October 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

Incorrect sir or madam.

All mechs require a minimum of 10 heat sinks. It's just that you only "see" the requirement when you use a tiny engine, and tiny mechs get tiny engines. I run a few hunchbacks with engines smaller than 250, and you are required to add heatsinks to those as well. So there's nothing special about the locust, it's built by the same rules as everything else.

Putting a 150 engine in a Hunchback dosnt leave it unable to equip more than 2 1-ton weapons though.

Using even XL's in a Locust, and you pretty much cant do anything with it. At 'most' you might be able to fit 1 powerful weapon... or 2 'small' weapons. But once you try to go beyond 2. Your 'enforced' extra tonnage pretty much chops your legs out form under you.

Edited by Rhapsody Repine, 15 October 2013 - 03:03 PM.