13 replies to this topic

[Tvae]

Welcome to the first installment of Jerry-rigging, what will hopefully be a multiple part series in which I examine sections of the game that some people say feel jerry-rigged together. [jerry-rigged(adj.): Organized or constructed in a crude or improvised manner; Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary] This is not meant to always provide possible solutions, but to mainly try and examine each issue to the core, and figure out at least what it is PGI needs to look at on their own time. If I do make any suggestions (which, at times, I most definitely will), I make absolutely no promises that they won't feel just as jerry-rigged as the way the game currently handles them.

Nothing I say is final, and at times I will likely be wrong in how I interpret things. This post will be corrected over time, with inconsistencies fixed and phrasing rectified. I have no idea if anything I talk about will even be considered for fixing by PGI, or if they will in any way even consider it an issue in the first place - this is mainly for me to stretch my creative juices as a game designer in regards to issues people somtimes bring up. Selfish, I know, but I'm afraid you will just have to deal.

With that all clarified, let's begin!


Jerry-rigging #1: Mending Ghost Heat

Right off the bat, I decided to tackle one of the big quandaries of the game. Now, I've talked about the solution I will be proposing before, but this is the first time it will have its own thread, so I hope to clarify things better and potentially touch on some points I haven't made before.

So, what is the issue here? Let's start by looking at the way the system is supposed to work currently, figure out if it is fulfilling its duties and where any issues may lay, and finally look at a possible fix or two to streamline the game experience.

(If you feel you already understand the mechanics of ghost heat, you may skip to Part 2. If you think you are well enough aware of how the system is currently implemented and any problems it has, feel free to skip to Part 3. PGI, I would appreciate if you would read from at least Part 2.)

Pt. I: Here We Stand

Ghost heat was a mechanic meant to get rid of the boating-heavy environment the game had taken on up to the point it was introcuced. It is a system where, if a player fires too many of the same weapon (or even similar weapons in some cases) within a certain period of time from each other, it will cause a penalty, and additional 'ghost heat' will be applied on top of the regular heat those weapons cause. This means that bringing multiple weapons of similar types can be a risky move, as even some smaller weapons will have heat issues if you fire too many of them at the same time. Different types of weapon do not cause ghost heat with each other, meaning that ghost heat encourages diversity over boating to avoid heat in builds. Almost all weapons in the game currently suffer from ghost heat, with the exception of a few of the smallest weapons (machine guns, flamers, small lasers, etc).

This is a system with a number of not readily apparent intricacies designed to make smaller weapons suffer less. The max number of weapons before ghost heat kicks in is different for each weapon, and the amount of heat actually gained from the penalty is also different. For example:

Medium Lasers
Limit before penalty: 6
Ghost heat: (~ 0.457 * Number Over Limit) * Number of Med. Lasers

Large Lasers
Limit before penalty: 2
Ghost heat: (~ 1.177 * Number Over Limit) * Number of Large Lasers

(If anyone knows a simpler way to represent this information, please give me a heads up. All values obtained from Smurfy.)

As you can see, this allows for more medium lasers before invoking the penalty than large lasers. If you want to see the rest of the values, as well as what weapons are effected, please view the above link.

Pt. II: Is It Supposed to Do That...?

So, as you can see, it can get a bit complicated, trying to keep track of multiple different weapons so as to not invoke the wrath of that mysterious force which travels around, bringing extra heat to all the naughty mechwarriors who happened to fire one too many of the same weapon on Patch Day Eve. But regardless of the complexity, does this system actually work?

The answer is, frankly, yes. I will not even try to deny that it does work; there are a number of problematic builds that were commonplace before the system, yet are nowhere to be found after the fact (I'm looking at you, 6 PPC Stalker). I would even go so far as to say that the game is better than it was before ghost heat. Well, great then! Problem solved. Pack up your things everyone, let's head to the pub for a nice brew, eh?

Wait a second, not so fast! Why would I be making this thread if there was no issue? What's the catch? Well, there's actually a few reasons...

The main issues revolve around both the complexity of the system, and the fact that many of the weapons hit by are regarded by much of the community as weapons with absolutely no need for such a penalty. Many of the weapons were either rarely boated, or were already hard to boat, due to the amount of heat already caused by those weapons. On top of that, a lot of boats were actually considered perfectly viable, with only the slightest of tweaks needed (if any), yet they are now nowhere to be seen. The removal of viable builds is rarely (if ever) a good thing, even if it's as collateral from fixing a much maligned issue.

If the loss of a number of viable builds wasn't enough, the system is also riddled with a number of inconsistencies that make it horrendously complex to explain. To avoid people just bringing similar weapons of different types, such as both LRM 10s and 20s, they linked those weapons together and gave them the same limit before the penalty kicks in. This creates weird situations such as 3 LRM 10s (30 missles) causing more heat than 2 LRM 20s (40 missles). Less missles causing more heat... That makes sense, right? ...Right?

Even if they fixed all the discrepancies like the above, the system still has an absurd number of values, restrictions, and requirements to keep track of to use effectively, which has turned numerous expert players away from the game to look for something with less unnecessary convolution (and good luck even trying to explain any of the intricacies of the system to a new player; best to just stick to saying 'TOO MANY WEAPONS BAD' and leave it at that for their first year or two of playing).

AC/2s are also known to be bugged with ghost heat. Despite the fact they have a limit with 3, as the cooldown of AC/2s is less than the cooldown on ghost heat, it is possible to manually chainfire even just 2 of them and receive the penalty. They did account for group firing, at least - group firing 3 AC/2s does not cause any ghost heat. This is a major issue, not just because it means that manually chainfiring AC/2s is not a viable way of firing the weapon (despite being useful for both putting a large amount of shots into an area at distance so you have to worry less about each specific fire and more about your overall accuracy at that range, and for worrying less about hitting lights as the buzz around), but also because PGI has gone on record saying that this is intended. PGI, this is clearly, clearly broken. Even if you take nothing else from this post, please. Please. Fix AC/2s.

(The last issue I will list for the mechanic is the fact that is not actually explained in game at the moment, requiring players to use external sources to find any information on how it works. However, this has already been acknowledged, and supposedly will be fixed with UI2.0, so I'll say no more about it.)

Pt. III: How To Save A Life Mechanic

This is the part of the post where I suggest how to fix Ghost Heat. PGI seems pretty intent on keeping it; after all, it DOES fix what it was meant to fix. Just... at the cost of a lot of other issues. So, if we can't outright remove it, what do we do...?

It's actually quite simple. The way to fix ghost heat is by removing it from every weapon... except PPCs.

Just think about it for a second. Ghost heat was designed to combat boats, yes. But the main target was PPC boats, which were a horrible pain at the time, and it does a fantastic job of shutting them down (literally). However, all the other weapon systems the game has should not be suffering because that one weapon needed a fix. Yes, it drastically needed a fix, and this was a fairly creative way to do it. But no other weapons were enough of an issue that this change makes sense for them without causing other issues.

Keeping ghost heat as a PPC only mechanic actually fits directly into the PGI design strategy of late, which is to assign each weapon its own unique mechanics to try and differentiate them (lasers - beam duration, gauss - charge, PPCs... ghost heat? ). Yeah, PPCs currently look cool, have high heat and do nice damage, but they're really just a long range, accurate weapon. They have nothing that really defines them as the weapon we all know they're supposed to be - screaming hot lightning throwers. They should feel very powerful, but difficult to use. That difficulty could be in handling the heat.

They are described in lore as being weapons where firing even two of them simultaneously is something that is pretty hard to bear for mech pilots, with three being almost suicide (Awesome pilots are braver men than I), and four? Well... double heat sinks are fairly new technology again, and I'm not sure I'd personally risk it until the tech improves a bit more. Even putting lore aside, it's how you've been balancing the weapon already, distinguishing it with that fact and raising the heat patch after patch. So, my suggestion is to distinguish that element further... Make it the only weapon with ghost heat. It's a unique, interesting mechanic that increases the heat of using that weapon in groups, which makes perfect sense for a weapon that is supposed to be very heat unfriendly.

It just doesn't make sense from a gameplay OR lore standpoint to have it on any other weapons. Don't believe me? Let's look at some specific cases, and how PGI could tweak them without ghost heat if needed:

AC/20

• Have a 2-limit for ghost heat
  
• Ghost heat specifically targeted the one mech that could actually wield 2 of them in any sort of efficient manner, the AC/40 JaegerMech.
  
• That mech was dangerous if ignored, definitely - but had a number of issues already, meaning that ghost did little besides delivering the killing stroke.
  
• Although dangerous in the right situation, it was rarely considered OP in any fashion. If you are still worried about it without ghost heat, though...
  
• Increase the cooldown so that it doesn't hit as often. I've always felt that ACs should be the hard-hitter weapons of the game, with high damage, but higher cooldowns. (Which could possibly be their unique mechanic - that they just don't fire as often.)
  
• It could generate a fair amount of heat too, but not because two of them are firing at once. That's just silly.
  
• (A more out-there solution could be to possibly have recoil if it is located in the arms, as another possibility for a unique mechanic. Just as long as it's fairly predictable recoil, aka, not random, so that good players can teach themselves how to account for it.)

Large Lasers

• 2-limit for ghost heat
  
• Only was ever really an issue with the 6/LL Stalker (or now the 7LL Battlemaster, if anyone would be crazy enough to try that).
  
• I will admit, if ghost heat makes sense on any weapon other than PPCs, it would be large lasers, which are also notoriously heat unfriendly. However...
  
• You're already introduced a mechanic to prevent pinpoint laser damage - duration! Increase the beam duration slightly if a nerf is needed.
  
• Increased laser duration brings the 6/LL Stalker from slightly too strong, to a completely viable build that works great as a heavy-buster, but would be damn hard to use against lights. (Not to mention being a carbon copy of a canon mech.)
  
• A small (base) heat nerf, if it's still too strong, could work as well.

AC/2s

• What? No. Go away.

LRMs

• 2-limit for ghost heat
  
• Are confusing to use with ghost heat anyways, as explained in Part 2.
  
• These have been an issue in the past, but they're always an on/off a problem; adding a new mechanic will likely do little than make balancing them even more of a chore, in among the craziness that already is LRMs.
  
• They already have their own built-in counters for when they're OP - AMS, ECM, and just cover in general. Buff the counters if they're still an issue.

SRMs

• 4-limit for S/SRM2s, 3-limit for SRM4/6s
  
• These all tend to be fast-firing, short range weapons. AKA, exactly the sort of weapon where ghost heat makes absolutely no sense.
  
• Their main balancing point is in their spread. Make it harder to hit in 1 location with alphas if needed.
  
• If you want them running hot, make them hot - don't make boating them the issue.

Medium Lasers

• 6-limit
  
• Is anyone really complaining about these? I didn't realize the lunchback was such an issue.
  
• Such a bread-and-butter weapon doesn't need any more complex mechanics; it already has beam duration.
  
• Oh well, this is an easy fix - increase the beam duration or heat, same as LLs.

That is all the weapons Smurfy lists as having ghost heat, which is actually interesting - as when the system first launched, it also had Medium Pulse Lasers and Gauss Rifles included as well. I tested them both out in game, wondering if they had accidently been removed from Smurfy, but it appears ghost heat has been removed entirely from these weapons in-game! Clearly, PGI has already started to realize that this is NOT the correct balancing mechanic for most of the weapons in the game, so my suggestion... Why not go all the way, and restrict it to the one weapon it was meant for?



One last thing making it a PPC-only mechanic would fix is how complex the mechanic feels. Currently, you have to attempt to remember 8-ish different penalty groups, not to mention how much heat each weapon causes within those groups. Keeping it to only PPCs keeps it simple:

Do you have more than 2 PPCs?
Yes: Careful not to fire them all at once, or they'll cause even more heat! (Preferably with more information in UI2.0 to explain the mechanic better for those who wish to truly understand it.)
No: Oh, well, carry on then.

What a wonderful world that would be...

A Conclusion of Sorts (also TL;DR for those lazy folks...)

So, there you have it - an explanation of how and why ghost heat doesn't make much sense on any weapon except PPCs. If you have read it all, thank you, and well done! I don't really have much else to say, but if you have any (constructive) criticism for this idea, please respond. Although I feel the base idea is solid, as a game designer myself I understand that it would likely not be nearly so simple as flipping a switch to turn ghost heat off for all the other weapons, and that much balance testing would almost surely be required. However, I still feel the advantages of making it a unique mechanic for PPCs would far outweigh the balance work it would require.

(Edit: Have a suggestion for a future jerry-rigging post? Suggest it below! No promises I will make a post about it, as sometimes I can be a lazy bum, but I do want this game to be the best possible Mechwarrior game, the same as the rest of you.)

Edited by Tvae, 20 October 2013 - 05:18 AM.

[PanzerMagier]

My my, yet another passionate post for the umpteenth time about something that will never change. You'd think by now people will realize it doesn't matter how grand a post you make, they're still not gonna take away ghost heat. Not only is this yet another one of those millions "here are my XYZ changes for MWO balance" threads, the proposed changes are horribly biased. These changes will likely result in further deterioration of gameplay balance.

You know there are few players who actually understand the real issue with MWO balance and that is:
High heat capacity + low heat dissipation. If you're building a heat mechanic system that negates heat neutral builds and forces alpha strikes to be the only efficient option, did you expect anything less of people to do just that?

No? Just me then? I guess I must be on an island. A pity...

[Tangelis]

Totally agree that Ghost Heat needs to be explained. Hopefully PGI will cover it in a tutorial but that is part of an already long list of things that need doing.

I can't agree however that ghost heat should only be limited to PPC's. Consider if this were so for just a moment. The effect it would have would just be the natural chain of evolution in that the players would just find the "next best thing" and instead PGI would have to deal with the outcry of every FOTM with the highest boated alpha one at a time. (6 LL for example or 4 LRM 15's, 2 AC 20's PPC were not the only problem).

Boating has always been a problem with every single MW title. PGI stated right from the drawing board that they did not want MW:O to just be a modern title with the same old same old player vs player usual suspect builds.

Ghost heat didn't really eliminate boats, it just gave them a penalty for abusing them, but mostly it forced players to build with more diversity or play more conservatively. For all the hoopla there are still ac 40 jagers out there and they are still devastating but can no longer be abused.This was the idea behind Ghost Heat. Mostly however the builds on the field are of a variety and when seen are not instant doom, which although is a matter of opinion, was a problem.

Prior to Ghost heat we had several typical builds. One or two on the field was perhaps fine but they were so effective they spread rapidly to the point where it spawned an "if you can't beat them join them" attitude and thus dominated the game. I can't speak for anyone else but personally I didn't find it any fun at all and as a result most of the chassis' I had collected dust while I sported mechs that would not die instantly from one strike.

I agree that Ghost Heat was not the only viable solution. Heat mechanics in general could have been adjusted in terms of max capacity or heat sink dissipation etc or heck even your idea has merit. Ghost Heat is what we got and although it may not be the best solution, by your very own words....it is working and doing what it is supposed to do.

My overall opinion is keep Ghost Heat as it is, yes there are several other methods that could have been implemented but being that it's intent was to eliminate the abuse of boats any thing else would yield nearly the same results that we have right now, so what are we really complaining about? If it's not Ghost heat it would just be something else we don't agree with but works as intended.

Edited by Tangelis, 20 October 2013 - 07:11 AM.

[Adran]

I agree with the OP. The only alternative is for PGI to finally get off their lazy ***** and remake the entire heat system into something more logical.

[Tvae]

PanzerMagier, on 20 October 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

My my, yet another passionate post for the umpteenth time about something that will never change. You'd think by now people will realize it doesn't matter how grand a post you make, they're still not gonna take away ghost heat. Not only is this yet another one of those millions "here are my XYZ changes for MWO balance" threads, the proposed changes are horribly biased. These changes will likely result in further deterioration of gameplay balance.

You know there are few players who actually understand the real issue with MWO balance and that is:
High heat capacity + low heat dissipation. If you're building a heat mechanic system that negates heat neutral builds and forces alpha strikes to be the only efficient option, did you expect anything less of people to do just that?

No? Just me then? I guess I must be on an island. A pity...

You appear to be missing the point of my post; this was not stating that there isn't any issue with the current capacity/dissipation stats of the game as is, this is a concept for a possible fix for the unnecessarily complex heat mechanic that currently is ghost heat. I do agree that a do-over of heat mechanics in general would be a fantastic idea, but would I prefer that such a renovation take place in an environment where everyone isn't focused around a confusingly broken heat mechanic? Most definitely.

If people are content to stay with ghost heat, then so be it. It does its job well, and will certainly continue to get better over time through tweaks. However, recent changes (such as the removal of ghost heat from Med. Pulse Lasers) show that even PGI recognizes that the mechanic, as it currently stands, has some major kinks that would still need working out.

All I'm trying to do is try to find an easy way out for keeping ghost heat doing what it was meant to do, without having to worry about the complexity issue that comes from forcing such an innately unintuitive and (in many cases) unnecessary mechanic onto a majority of the weapons in the game. Did I say that my idea would be perfect? No, but that's the point of trying to get feedback on the issue. When someone points out a valid contradiction to ANY of the points I made in part 2, I will gladly change my post to reflect as such.

Edited by Tvae, 20 October 2013 - 07:17 AM.

[PanzerMagier]

Tvae, on 20 October 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

You appear to be missing the point of my post; this was not stating that there isn't any issue with the current capacity/dissipation stats of the game as is, this is a concept for a possible fix for the unnecessarily complex heat mechanic that currently is ghost heat. I do agree that a do-over of heat mechanics in general would be a fantastic idea, but would I prefer that such a renovation take place in an environment where everyone isn't focused around a confusingly broken heat mechanic? Most definitely.

If people are content to stay with ghost heat, then so be it. It does its job well, and will certainly continue to get better over time through tweaks. However, recent changes (such as the removal of ghost heat from Med. Pulse Lasers) show that even PGI recognizes that the mechanic, as it currently stands, has some major kinks that would still need working out.

All I'm trying to do is try to find an easy way out for keeping ghost heat doing what it was meant to do, without having to worry about the complexity issue that comes from forcing such an innately unintuitive and (in many cases) unnecessary mechanic onto a majority of the weapons in the game. Did I say that my idea would be perfect? No, but that's the point of trying to get feedback on the issue. When someone points out a valid contradiction to ANY of the points I made in part 2, I will gladly change my post to reflect as such.

Hang on, let me grab my juggernaut helmet since this thread is quickly spiraling towards "let's all smash our heads repeatedly against the wall" syndrome.

People are not content with ghost heat, no one has ever been content with it. But that doesn't matter, what you think is irrelevant. What I think is also irrelevant. PGI will not change ghost heat. Or better yet they will change it in such a way that it will bring little to no improvement to gameplay balance. They might explain it, but that's about it. The only reason you believe ghost heat is doing a good job is because you lack context.

MWO will forever remain a one dimensional game (meaning it will always be something like Gausswarrioronline or ppcwarrioronline or LRMwarrioronline) as long as the 2 greatest underlying gameplay balance issues are not taken care of.

1. Heat Capacity and Heat dissipation. Current setup encourages alpha striking over DPS. With Ghost heat added, you have an arbitrary rollercoaster of gooked up builds trying to cheat ghost heat but still get the most alpha strike power.
2. Pinpoint convergence and HSR. If we have 100% fully functional HSR, sniper builds will become all to popular as the armour system is based off TT and any mech's primary weakness is focusing damage on a specific part. If we don't have 100% functional HSR... Well we're sitting with today's problems then.

Everything else is completely redundant. But hay, don't mind me, it's not like those 2 problems will ever be dealt with in a serious fashion. And that's the End game. There is no easy way to deal with Ghost heat.

Edited by PanzerMagier, 20 October 2013 - 07:32 AM.

[ArmageddonKnight]

I agree with pritty much everything the OP has said to a certain extent. What 'should' be within ghost heat is arguable as i personaly feel all LArge Energy weapons' should have it. so thats LL, LPL, PPC, ERPPC..
BUT

As big a post as this was, it just doesnt cover enough of MWO to fully explain and attempt to fix MWO's inbalances.

There are so many interconected balances and features that need fixing, adding , or removing, that just talking about 1 of those (ghost heat) will do nothing. Just for example i will point out one of the linked issues.

Ghost heat - high alpha - Boating - hardpoints.

PGI left hardpoitns unrestricted, this lead to people boating weapons, this lead to high alpha builds and high alpha meta, this lead to PGI putitng in Ghost heat.

Ghost heat isnt a fix, its a 'bandaid'. trying to improve it wont work FULLY, it can only help lessen the problem..the problem however wil lstill be there til lthe route cause is addressed.

As i said this is just 1 link, there are many others that branch off and into it, hit detection, armor, speed, damage etc etc .To explain them all together ,as would be needed in such fully detailed and all emcompasing post, would take a hile and take up multiple posts. In the end the time and effort put in would not be worth it when PGI would simply ignore it and half the community gives replies like :

PanzerMagier, on 20 October 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

My my, yet another passionate post for the umpteenth time about something that will never change. You'd think by now people will realize it doesn't matter how grand a post you make, they're still not gonna take away ghost heat. Not only is this yet another one of those millions "here are my XYZ changes for MWO balance" threads, the proposed changes are horribly biased. These changes will likely result in further deterioration of gameplay balance.

You know there are few players who actually understand the real issue with MWO balance and that is:
High heat capacity + low heat dissipation. If you're building a heat mechanic system that negates heat neutral builds and forces alpha strikes to be the only efficient option, did you expect anything less of people to do just that?

No? Just me then? I guess I must be on an island. A pity...

Though to be fair to this poster, he has mentioned a balance issue that is not in the OP, and thus such a replie to a more detailed post about MWo balance as i explain above, would likely not happen.

[Tvae]

PanzerMagier, on 20 October 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

Hang on, let me grab my juggernaut helmet since this thread is quickly spiraling towards "let's all smash our heads repeatedly against the wall" syndrome.

People are not content with ghost heat, no one has ever been content with it. But that doesn't matter, what you think is irrelevant. What I think is also irrelevant. PGI will not change ghost heat. Or better yet they will change it in such a way that it will bring little to no improvement to gameplay balance. They might explain it, but that's about it. The only reason you believe ghost heat is doing a good job is because you lack context.

MWO will forever remain a one dimensional game (meaning it will always be something like Gausswarrioronline or ppcwarrioronline or LRMwarrioronline) as long as the 2 greatest underlying gameplay balance issues are not taken care of.

1. Heat Capacity and Heat dissipation. Current setup encourages alpha striking over DPS. With Ghost heat added, you have an arbitrary rollercoaster of gooked up builds trying to cheat ghost heat but still get the most alpha strike power.
2. Pinpoint convergence and HSR. If we have 100% fully functional HSR, sniper builds will become all to popular as the armour system is based off TT and any mech's primary weakness is focusing damage on a specific part. If we don't have 100% functional HSR... Well we're sitting with today's problems then.

Everything else is completely redundant. But hay, don't mind me, it's not like those 2 problems will ever be dealt with in a serious fashion. And that's the End game. There is no easy way to deal with Ghost heat.

Perhaps I misspoke when I used the term 'doing its job' to define ghost heat. What I meant, mainly, was that there existed a number of builds which people complained about, and that people ceased to complain about them once ghost heat was implemented, as they were no longer viable. A horrendously over-simplified version of events, for certain, but I felt my post was going on long enough and, although I skipped the inner details for a lot of it, I am yet to see any response with straightforward indication whether my conclusions are viable or not. The only thing ghost heat was really needed for, as balance stood at the time, was getting rid of the 6-PPC Stalker, which it did. Ergo, it did its job. (The other big issue one was the 2PPC-Guass Cataphract, which was dealt with with the gauss changes, which are a completely different issue to fix).

As to PGI not changing ghost heat from a gameplay perspective... perhaps. However, they have already removed it from 2 systems: Gauss and Medium Pulse Lasers. Not changing gameplay? Well, those weapons have their own issues (Gauss - charge, Med. pulse - crazy high heat for their size), so to say that it affected overall balance by removing it from them would be a claim I would not make at this time. To say that they won't change it though? I'm not quite sure where you got that idea.

Again, I definitely agree with heat dissipation/capacity changes being a good thing that would help this game immensely. HSR, of course, would also be grand. However, you say that, then go on to say that HSR would cause a over-surge of sniper builds. I'm not sure if you recall, but right before ghost heat came out, there was a major upgrade to how HSR worked, and suddenly people could hit targets at range - which meant (in combination with a lowering of PPC heat at the same time) 6 PPC Stalkers were now horribly powerful, which lead to ghost heat. See how this is all connected? You say that the game will only ever be truly fixed when those two things are in, but game design is not black and white. I feel it would be more correct to say that the game will NEVER be truly balanced; perfect balance is a technically unreachable goal, no matter how close you come. Changing one thing changes almost everything else, regardless of how insignificant the effects of a change may be at the time.

That's why I said that, if they do change ghost heat as I suggested, it would not be an easy undertaking. In fact, it likely would require changes to either dissipation or capacity, as you seem to so desperately want, to ever truly be effective. That's why it's called game 'balance'.

ArmageddonKnight, on 20 October 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

I agree with pritty much everything the OP has said to a certain extent. What 'should' be within ghost heat is arguable as i personaly feel all LArge Energy weapons' should have it. so thats LL, LPL, PPC, ERPPC..
BUT

As big a post as this was, it just doesnt cover enough of MWO to fully explain and attempt to fix MWO's inbalances.

There are so many interconected balances and features that need fixing, adding , or removing, that just talking about 1 of those (ghost heat) will do nothing. Just for example i will point out one of the linked issues.

Ghost heat - high alpha - Boating - hardpoints.

PGI left hardpoitns unrestricted, this lead to people boating weapons, this lead to high alpha builds and high alpha meta, this lead to PGI putitng in Ghost heat.

Ghost heat isnt a fix, its a 'bandaid'. trying to improve it wont work FULLY, it can only help lessen the problem..the problem however wil lstill be there til lthe route cause is addressed.

As i said this is just 1 link, there are many others that branch off and into it, hit detection, armor, speed, damage etc etc .To explain them all together ,as would be needed in such fully detailed and all emcompasing post, would take a hile and take up multiple posts.

This is the sort of response I was looking for! Oh, how I wish they had implemented hardpoint sizes from the beginning... So much of this could have been averted from the start. I did consider saying that ghost heat would be best restricted to large energy hardpoints, but alas, we currently do not have such a system. Might be an interesting idea for a future discussion... The correct manner to handle hardpoint restrictions...

As to ghost heat being a 'bandaid' versus a 'fix', I'll admit that I do hold the unusual viewpoint that everything, with the correct balancing, can be viable. I actually like the concept of ghost heat - it's a unique mechanic not often seen, and could be a fun way to balance a weapon system. The issue is that they forced it on to so many different weapon systems, when not all weapon systems were in need of a mechanic anywhere near so complicated, and some didn't even require any sort of balancing at the time at all, and were commonly regarded as fairly balanced.

As to how everything is interconnected, and more posts will be fully needed to explain everything that needs fixing in the game... Well, why do you think this is jerry-rigging #1?

(I'm quickly realizing, however, that maybe I should have started with a topic other than ghost heat. I was well aware that it was a volatile topic, but decided to try anyways... Hmmmm...)

Edited by Tvae, 20 October 2013 - 08:13 AM.

[MuonNeutrino]

I have to agree with a lot of the OP, but I do have to object to the following:

Tvae, on 20 October 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

...Let's look at some specific cases, and how PGI could tweak them without ghost heat if needed:

AC/20

• Increase the cooldown so that it doesn't hit as often. I've always felt that ACs should be the hard-hitter weapons of the game, with high damage, but higher cooldowns. (Which could possibly be their unique mechanic - that they just don't fire as often.)
  
• It could generate a fair amount of heat too, but not because two of them are firing at once. That's just silly.

Large Lasers

• You're already introduced a mechanic to prevent pinpoint laser damage - duration! Increase the beam duration slightly if a nerf is needed.
  
• A small (base) heat nerf, if it's still too strong, could work as well.

(Snips for space/relevance.)


These two suggestions run completely counter to the entire reason ghost heat exists in the way that it currently does. Whether ghost heat is overall a good thing or not can be argued until the cows come home, but one part of it that was *exactly* the right idea (in my opinion) is that it is a non-linear system.

The problem with what you proposed above is that large lasers and AC20, in isolation, *do not need any nerf*. The fact is, two large lasers or a single AC20 are balanced just fine as it is. The problem lies in the fact that 6 large lasers are *more* than three times as good as two and that two AC20s are *more* than twice as good as one. You cannot balance this sort of power with a simple nerf to the base stats of a weapon, because the effects of such a nerf are linear while the power of the weapons increase non-linearly. Inevitably you will either over-nerf the weapons when used in small numbers, or you will fail to nerf them sufficiently when used in large numbers.

Ghost heat's escalating penalties are an (admittedly clumsy) attempt to deal with this. While you may want to argue that ghost heat should not be applied here, if you wish to replace it with some other means of reducing the power of these weapons that other method *must* retain the idea of escalating penalties in some form. Put simply, whatever method you come up with must *not* nerf a pair of large lasers or a single AC20, because those are not in need of a nerf.

[BrockSamsonFW]

PanzerMagier, on 20 October 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

MWO will forever remain a one dimensional game (meaning it will always be something like Gausswarrioronline or ppcwarrioronline or LRMwarrioronline) as long as the 2 greatest underlying gameplay balance issues are not taken care of.

1. Heat Capacity and Heat dissipation. Current setup encourages alpha striking over DPS. With Ghost heat added, you have an arbitrary rollercoaster of gooked up builds trying to cheat ghost heat but still get the most alpha strike power.
2. Pinpoint convergence and HSR. If we have 100% fully functional HSR, sniper builds will become all to popular as the armour system is based off TT and any mech's primary weakness is focusing damage on a specific part. If we don't have 100% functional HSR... Well we're sitting with today's problems then.

Everything else is completely redundant. But hay, don't mind me, it's not like those 2 problems will ever be dealt with in a serious fashion. And that's the End game. There is no easy way to deal with Ghost heat.

Agreed. These two issues are key. Things like ghost heat attempt to fix a the "problem" of ridiculously lopsided alpha/boating loadouts. Unfortunately that isn't the problem it is just a symptom. The REAL problem is not WHAT people do but WHY they do it. People make these builds because they are effective and the reason they are effective is because of the 2 reasons listed above.

Ghost heat and other fixes are simply band-**** that attempt to deal with the results and effects of the 2 problems listed above. When you block one with some arbitrary rule people will just move to the next-best one instead. Most players are smart enough to see what works and as long as it makes sense to choose lopsided alpha/boat builds people will do it. In order to fix this they need to address the real underlying problems and make it so that it no longer makes sense to choose builds like this. Until they do that it will just be an endless FOTM meta until there are so many ridiculous arbitrary rules that it's impossible to make sense of things and new players don't even bother anymore.

MuonNeutrino, on 20 October 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

The problem with what you proposed above is that large lasers and AC20, in isolation, *do not need any nerf*. The fact is, two large lasers or a single AC20 are balanced just fine as it is. The problem lies in the fact that 6 large lasers are *more* than three times as good as two and that two AC20s are *more* than twice as good as one. You cannot balance this sort of power with a simple nerf to the base stats of a weapon, because the effects of such a nerf are linear while the power of the weapons increase non-linearly. Inevitably you will either over-nerf the weapons when used in small numbers, or you will fail to nerf them sufficiently when used in large numbers.

Also agreed. Pinpoint convergence means that when one weapon type is good, several of those same weapon types combined become exponentially better. This isn't discussed as nearly as often as the heat system but there are some good ideas floating around that would take care of this as well.

[Captain Stiffy]

Tvae, on 20 October 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

I'm looking at you, 6 PPC Stalker

I WANT MY 6 PPC STALKER BACK

[Navy Sixes]

Adran, on 20 October 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

I agree with the OP. The only alternative is for PGI to finally get off their lazy ***** and remake the entire heat system into something more logical.

Really? I can think of several other options. Here's one: PGI builds their game exactly the way they want to build it, and a few people continue to pretend that they don't have to play along if they can just argue passionately enough. Most of us move on.

Ghost heat works; the OP said it themself. Just let it go.

[RandomLurker]

PanzerMagier, on 20 October 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

My my, yet another passionate post for the umpteenth time about something that will never change.

Irrelevant. It's still a broken mechanic, and PGI needs to be reminded of this at every opportunity.

OP- regarding lasers, increasing beam duration would be a major nerf to anyone that uses single/small amounts of them. I'm going to go ahead and say that Ghost heat is warranted on LLas, except raise the limit to 3 and separate Large Pulses away from the regular ones.

[tuffy963]

I believe that ghost heat is an arbitrary solution to a problem created by narrow game design. PGI has failed to institute a basic aspect of a military simulation that is present in many other successful titles and even present in the original TT game. To illustrate this aspect of warfare, I will reference a modern warfare example....

Today, big expensive military platforms that operate alone behind enemy lines (warships, submarines, aircraft, tanks) must face a multitude of differing goals and threats with differing characteristics to be successful (not to mention survive). To illustrate, let's focus on the tank as an example since it bears many similar characteristics to a MWO mech. Let's start with a couple of key characteristics of the modern tank:

• It is expensive
  
• It can be difficult to transport
  
• It is expensive to support in the battlefield (fuel, ammo, manteniance)
  
• It can be potent (just a few can change the outcomes of a battle) when used a few roles
  
• It can be considered "tough" against certain threats, but "vunerable" against other threats (aircraft)

If we can agree broadly with those characteristics and that MWO mechs should have similar characteristics, then we can turn our attention to understanding broad goals/threats that a modern tank faces on the battlefield. It is useful to list the goals( What they are asked to do), then the threats (What threatens to keep them from their goals)

Possible goals a tank or company of tanks might be asked to accomplish...

• Destroy an opposing force of tanks
  
• Secure a key location
  
• Hold a key location
  
• Destroy a building
  
• Support infantry as they make an advance
  
• Protect a supply line

Possible Threats

• Tank force
  
• Walls, Trenches, Tank barriers, other terrain
  
• Anti-tank infantry
  
• Aircraft
  
• Fixed artillery/emplacements
  
• Mines
  
• Standard infantry
  
• Un-armored vehicles
  
• Warships

Looking at this list and applying these to the MWO, I think we can agree that MWO has only been able to implement one of these goals, and 1.5 threats (mechs, and some terrain). This myopic game play experience has skewed both game design and player behavior.


Game design: PGI has attempted to make every weapon available in the game "balanced" when it comes to the one real threat (other mechs). If there were a more realistic/broad set of goals/threats in the game then certain weapons would be free to be "bad" at destroying mechs, but good at accomplishing other goals or threats (i.e., flamers and MG vs. infantry)

Player behavior: I think we all have a good understanding of this one, I will not belabor the point. Suffice to say, smart players come to understand how to maximize their success based on the goal(s) laid out before them. Since they have been given one goal and one threat, they have learned the best tools to be successful in achieving one goal (destroy the opposing force) and overcoming the singular threat (other mechs) are a few key mechs with a certain loadouts (i.e., 6 PPC stalkers, Splat Cats, LRM 60 boats).

In summary, I believe ghost heat is a narrow answer to problem created by narrow game design in the area of in-game goals/threats. If PGI is really interested robust mech weapon build out that are not forced by an arbitrary mechanic (ghost heat) they will have to tackle the problem by creating a more complex goals/threat matrix. Only when players are authentically faced with multiple conflicting goals/threats will they rethink their weapon load outs to achieve their goals in the face of differing threats.

Edited by tuffy963, 20 October 2013 - 11:22 AM.