389 replies to this topic

[GalaxyBluestar]

maruader was an adapted design very early on just to sell the toy designs in the states but it was adapted to a system it wasn't designed for. it's very special for having a central mouted weapon being stored in the RT, that was the original FASA adaption hence it was seen as a correction on the reseen to side mount larger weapons. it's just one of the perks/quirks of this design we'd love to see back and in truth considering all torso guns are fixed in this game it won't make too much of a difference. really the tradeoff will be one high mounted gun and two low-slung arms {competition winner and decision to adapt it for MWO pending} so it will have positives and negatives to balance.

extract:

Spoiler

Overview:
The MAD-3R Marauder is considered one of the most effective BattleMechs in existence. When first built by GM in the early 2600's, its unique design was intended as the precursor of a new generation of 'Mechs. With the fall of Star League, however, the other 'Mechs in the Marauder series remained on the drawing board. Although the Marauder is a common 'Mech today, many of its design elements remain unique.

Capabilities:
Originally intended as a heavy attack/support 'Mech, the addition of sophisticated Dalban Micronics comgear enabled the Marauder to function as a command vehicle in areas of heavy fighting. It continues so today, with Marauders often appearing in command lances. Though its twin PPC arrangement is reminiscent of more traditional 'Mechs such as the Rifleman and the Warhammer, the Marauder's unique, more versatile ball-and-socket arm joints give it faster traverse rate and a greater field of fire. The Valiant Lamellor armor is another of the Marauder's singular features. Less massive and better able to distribute heat and kinetic energy than other armor types, the secret of its manufacture has been lost. In the present era, the Marauder is one of the few 'Mechs to use it. As blasted patches have to be replaced with conventional armor, some Marauders now resemble metallic patchwork quilts. The Magna Hellstar PPC's that provide the Marauder's main armament are of an advanced design, compact enough to be carried in the 'Mech's arms and durable enough to withstand the heavy shocks of hand-to-hand combat. The Marauder's secondary armament, a GM Whirlwind autocannon, was added almost as an afterthought. The cannon's linkage to the chassis has been troublesome (see below), and the gun itself tends to be rather temperamental, often refusing to function at crucial moments. The 'Mech's unusual profile makes it a harder target than other manlike 'Mechs, but some design flaws occasionally plague Marauder pilots. The tenuous linkage between the autocannon and the main chassis is a frequent target, because a successful hit would disable the autocannon. The same applies to the rotation ring between the chassis and the leg assembly. Numerous Marauders now bear improvised armor around these vulnerable areas. Another source of trouble is the Dalban HiRez tracking system located in the Marauder's forward section, which severely limits the operator's field of vision. These problems are comparatively minor, however. The Marauder remains a potent battlefield weapon. In addition to its command duties, the MAD-3R operates as a dangerous heavy-attack vehicle, outclassed only by 'Mechs such as the Stalker and the rare Battlemaster. Capable of shooting lighter 'Mechs to pieces and battling hand-to-hand with more heavily armored opponents, the Marauder is usually deployed in a heavy shock unit, along with Warhammers and Thunderbolts. Its PPC and autocannon also enable the 'Mech to lay down a long-range barrage before actual combat.

Battle History:
After the fall of Star League, the Marauder found ample employment in the hellish chaos of the Succession Wars. This common, dangerous 'Mech continues on the retinue of every Successor State. An early example of Successor State use of Marauders was in 2828 when Duchess Ilsa Liao sent Barton's Battalion of the 1st Regiment, McCarron's Armored Cavalry, against House Marik on Pella II. Barton's Battalion consisted of 90 Marauders massed together with 18 Warhammers. This experiment, tantamount to Duchess Liao placing all her eggs in one basket (House Liao possessed only a few hundred Marauders at this time, and Barton's unit represented a large portion of them), was a success. The Marauders annihilated the inferior 'Mechs placed in their way by the beleaguered Mariks, while losing only four of their number. Barton's Battalion continued to be extremely successful, until Marik forces, falling back on Graham VI, caught them in a gorge outside the city of Gijia. Realizing that they had finally cornered the infamous Major Barton, the Mariks threw two full battalions of Archers and Riflemen against him. Unable to close in on the Marik 'Mechs, and with their field of fire restricted by the rock walls and the Dalban optical system, the Liao Marauders withdrew with heavy losses. Realizing the value of her Marauders and the folly of concentrating them all in individual units, the Duchess dispersed Barton's battered 'Mechs to other units. Ilsa Liao's noble experiment has yet to be repeated on such a scale, but it is not uncommon for lances and companies to have a high number of Marauders.

Variants:
There are now four major variants of the durable and versatile Marauder. House Davion's Marauder-D has dispensed with the troublesome autocannon altogether, replacing it and its vulnerable linkage with a heavy Magna Mark III laser. This modification is not without its problems. The addition of the laser had forced the removal of a heat sink, and the laser's high heat buildup occasionally limits the Marauder-D's effectiveness. Overheating and the lack of reliable PPCs have forced House Marik to replace the Marauder's characteristic twin PPCs with heavy lasers. The reduction in heat has, to some extent, compensated for the concurrent reduction in firepower, and so the Marauder-M is a widely used variant. A compromise between the two extremes is Liao's Marauder-L, which seems to have satisfied no one. Replacing one PPC with a heavy laser has caused problems, as the Dalban fire control system is sometimes unable to coordinate the two different weapons on the same circuit. Attempts to repair or modify the system have been unsuccessful, as no one alive understands the technology. Often, Marauder-L pilots will disconnect the heavy laser from the fire control unit altogether, and simply use a manual switch to shoot.

Notable 'Mechs & MechWarriors:

The Bounty Hunter

This MechWarrior's bright green Marauder, decorated with credit symbols, is a much-feared sight in the Successor States. No one knows The Bounty Hunter's real name, and few save the men who fight alongside him have actually seen his face. What is known is that he is a ruthless mercenary, as infamous for his treachery as for his fighting skill. Neither the lives of his men, nor those of innocent civilians stand in The Bounty Hunter's way as he destroys enemy 'Mechs for the prize money or to sell for spare parts. The credit symbols decorating his 'Mech are a reflection of his own true nature.

within the extract the cannon was an afterthought... not only in canon, boom boom, but to Fasa's game mechanics no doubt!

if done right my MAD mech will be my new Sig mech... though the mk2 will be tempting too. my ideal garage will be something like, medium-crab heavy-marauder assault-maruader mk2, not sure what the light mech would be yet.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 28 October 2013 - 12:50 AM.

[vetal l]

I am not very familiar with canon or unseen/reseen things.
Is it crucial to create design with center torso mounts? Or it is possible to mount weapon in side torso?

[GalaxyBluestar]

vetal l, on 28 October 2013 - 01:03 AM, said:

I am not very familiar with canon or unseen/reseen things.
Is it crucial to create design with center torso mounts? Or it is possible to mount weapon in side torso?

this should help you

[MustrumRidcully]

vetal l, on 28 October 2013 - 01:03 AM, said:

I am not very familiar with canon or unseen/reseen things.
Is it crucial to create design with center torso mounts? Or it is possible to mount weapon in side torso?

Most "Reseen" versions I've seen put the weapon more visibly in the side torso it's installed on according to its game mechanical representation, but still close to the center.

[vetal l]

Ahhh I see. I wonder, how close to the unseen can we draw.

[MoonUnitBeta]

vetal l, on 28 October 2013 - 02:06 AM, said:

Ahhh I see. I wonder, how close to the unseen can we draw.

For the contest, the design should be your own; unique from the original design.
However, in terms of Harmony Gold actually OK’ing a design? I have the funny feeling we’re going to have to say good-bye to the top mounted gun. The top cannon is iconic to the Marauder. For some that’s what makes the Marauder. But the Marauder design is a rip-off from HG’s design. The iconic cannon on the top for the Marauder is the iconic design stolen from HG. To get a Marauder, it may end up being a design without that center canon, less sleek, and could very well be an image of a mech that looks nothing like the Marauder. I hope that won't be the fact, though.
I believe this is where Bryan Ekman is coming from when he asks “What are people’s expectations.” I think he knows a little more than he leads on to know. He knows what HG will say no to, he knows what the Marauder ISN’T going to look like...
I’m hoping artists pick up on this and, although it may not LOOK like a Marauder, they will create something that is a worthy replacement.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 28 October 2013 - 08:17 AM.

[Odanan]

MoonUnitBeta, on 28 October 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

For the contest, the design should be your own; unique from the original design.
However, in terms of Harmony Gold actually OK’ing a design? I have the funny feeling we’re going to have to say good-bye to the top mounted gun. The top cannon is iconic to the Marauder. For some that’s what makes the Marauder. But the Marauder design is a rip-off from HG’s design. The iconic cannon on the top for the Marauder is the iconic design stolen from HG. To get a Marauder, it may end up being a design without that center canon, less sleek, and could very well be an image of a mech that looks nothing like the Marauder. I hope that won't be the fact, though.
I believe this is where Bryan Ekman is coming from when he asks “What are people’s expectations.” I think he knows a little more than he leads on to know. He knows what HG will say no to, he knows what the Marauder ISN’T going to look like...
I’m hoping artists pick up on this and, although it may not LOOK like a Marauder, they will create something that is a worthy replacement.

Not stolen.
They were bought from the same guys who sold it for HG. See this topic for more legal details.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Odanan, on 28 October 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

Not stolen.
They were bought from the same guys who sold it for HG. See this topic for more legal details.

Hmh.. would ya look at that! haha thanks for the correction. Iiiiiinterestinnnnnng... *rubs chin*

[XHarlequinX]

As a kid I loved the Robotech Anime Series, and in Battletech the Marauder has always been my favorite Mech.
Because of that I was always very disappointed that the Marauder never showed up in any of the PC Games.
Just the thought of stomping around with the Marauder with all it's glory...
But then (game-play) reality sneaks in those day dreams, and make me think that the whole design is very flawed.
As much as I love the art work and design of the Mech, after playing MWO I foresee some problems on the field, especially with the low hung arms. Looking at the side of all other Mechs you will see that the arms are protecting parts or all of the side torso. This wouldn't be the much of a case with the Marauder: the Side Torsos are openly exposed, giving enemies a very clear spot to take out Marauders fairly easy, especially if the Mech is equipped with a XL engine (the original design even shows the exposed Jet-like-engines).
It is just asking to happen. It doesn't take Nostradamus to foresee all the whining in the forums as soon as the devs introduce the Marauder with it's original design. It wouldn't live up to the expectations of the players and Marauder fans.
Sure, you might argue that looking at the front the only part of the side torso sticking out are the engine pylons, but I doubt that it would compensate for the missing side protection.
Another already mentioned problem is the center-mounted AC/5. It shouldn't be that hard to explain that the shown ballistic mount is actually on one of the side torsos, but that again exposes more of the already vulnerable side torsos.
Additionally the designer clearly (at least to me) had more like a third arm in mind: the weapon moves independently of the torso. Game wise it shouldn't be hard to connect it's movement to the arms, but again I don't know how much that would effect game balancing.
I believe that is why the devs didn't introduce the Marauder yet (but who knows what plans they have for the future).

So here is the dilemma: Introduce a flawed Marauder design to the game and destroy some of it's mystery and fame, or redesign it to fit into the game mechanics and offend all Marauder fangirls/boys by not sticking to the original.
Either way, the topic is so hot that it hasn't been touched yet.
Or: create a new design, call it either Marauder 3.0 (Marauder 2 being the later introduced assault version), or give it a complete new name but let everybody know that the design was based on the original Marauder.

In my mind it could look similar to the Clan Timberwolf/Mad Cat, but with a Marauder-like Cockpit and
with Ballistic Hardpoints instead of the Missile Launcher Boxes (the top claws of a Warhammer Tyranid Lictor comes in mind)
The iconic engine pylons would be missing, but it would satisfy having the AC Canon(s) above the Cockpit, while still being part of the arms and thus protecting the side torsos. Legs and Low hungs arms are also there, completing the Marauder-like look.
I would give the design at least 6 weapon hardpoints: 1 Ballistic and 1 Energy per arm, and 1 Energy per side torso (for the chin mounted weapons). 1 or 2 more energy/ballistic hardpoints could be added to the center.
Variants could replace the ballistic hardpoint with an additional energy hardpoint, or replace the torso energy hardpoints for missile hardpoints.
The heaviest arm weapon would automatically be allocated to the top mount. 9 free slots per arm give enough room for an AC/5 or even UAC/5 paired with a (ER)PPC. That, together with 2 Medium Lasers would give you one scary Mech, but with limited ammo and massive heat problems, especially without double heat sinks. I don't think the game balance would be effected, as you can already build similar mechs (i.e. CAT-K2, CTF-3D).
Unfortunately I lack the art/photoshop skills to create a picture of the design

Edited by XHarlequinX, 28 October 2013 - 10:09 AM.

[vetal l]

What makes mech a marauder? Top mounted cannon? It was an easily overcome - just place it slightly off center. Birdlike legs? Even stalker have it? Arms without hands, but with energy weapons? Whats more? And how many of this parts should be in design to make it forbidden by law? Can we spare top mounted gun and still name it marauder? Or should we place it on four legs?

Also - the strange things is a mechs dimensions. You know - there's a general rule that medium should be greater then light and so on. But it is almost impossible to find specifications for mechs.

Atlas for example are 16 meters high. Madcat - only 12.6. But Marauder also 16 meters. At least it's what i can find about it. Imagine birdlike mech Atlas size. And in many pictures it looks like light mech. Fast and long paces, huge (compared to body) gun at the top.

What cannon can be so huge (imagine Atlas and this gun)? But if we make this mech twice (may be more) smaller - everything fits in place. 50t mech with AC/5 can be fast and looks smaller under this gun.

So... sleek and neat 75t 16m mech? no way. =( Would it still be Marauder - that's your choice.

[XHarlequinX]

vetal l, on 28 October 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

What makes mech a marauder? Top mounted cannon? It was an easily overcome - just place it slightly off center. Birdlike legs? Even stalker have it? Arms without hands, but with energy weapons? Whats more? And how many of this parts should be in design to make it forbidden by law? Can we spare top mounted gun and still name it marauder? Or should we place it on four legs?

Also - the strange things is a mechs dimensions. You know - there's a general rule that medium should be greater then light and so on. But it is almost impossible to find specifications for mechs.

Atlas for example are 16 meters high. Madcat - only 12.6. But Marauder also 16 meters. At least it's what i can find about it. Imagine birdlike mech Atlas size. And in many pictures it looks like light mech. Fast and long paces, huge (compared to body) gun at the top.

What cannon can be so huge (imagine Atlas and this gun)? But if we make this mech twice (may be more) smaller - everything fits in place. 50t mech with AC/5 can be fast and looks smaller under this gun.

So... sleek and neat 75t 16m mech? no way. =( Would it still be Marauder - that's your choice.

Well, looking at the recent introduced Mechs and seeing the height of the Shadowhawk you really can't compare weight with height. Taking your example of the 12.6m Mad Cat (75t), the 100t Daishi is only 12.3m tall. width (front and from the side) also are part of the bulkiness of a mech. But I agree, a 16m tall Marauder compared to the Mad Cat would look a little odd. Don't know where you read that, but I never imagined the Marauder as tall as the Atlas.
But if we are talking about the Marauder, then (to me) it can't be anything else then a 75t heavy Mech. It has always been that way, and that is one thing I would never change. (The Marauder II was an 100t assault Mech, so how would you call a 50t medium Marauder? Marauder 0.5? )

[Auggie Barrenechea]

vetal l, on 28 October 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

What cannon can be so huge (imagine Atlas and this gun)? But if we make this mech twice (may be more) smaller - everything fits in place. 50t mech with AC/5 can be fast and looks smaller under this gun.

The A/C in Battletech has always been weird as far as physical design goes. There's very view that look quite right. The A/C 20 being one of the harshest ones. What makes an A/C 20? The size of the round or the volume of fire? Do these look right?
http://www.sarna.net...THR-Thunder.png http://www.sarna.net...enal_Kodiak.jpg

The Marauder doesn't need the huge barrel, it can be modified in length. The only thing you need the length for is accuracy.

[vetal l]

XHarlequinX, on 28 October 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

But I agree, a 16m tall Marauder compared to the Mad Cat would look a little odd. Don't know where you read that, but I never imagined the Marauder as tall as the Atlas.

http://bg.battletech...p?topic=12512.0 the only place where i can found mad height.

[Autobot9000]

IMO what makes a Marauder recognizable as a Marauder is...
- low hanging arms with particularly shaped guns (like the Cataphract pretty much), hanging as low as the mechs knees or even slightly below that
- space ship hull like torso (mix between catapult and stalker?)
- bird like legs with plate shaped feet

What I would change for a remake:
- ratio between legs and torso
In the original design the ratio between these two looks ugly

[PoLaR]

Looking forward to seeing the winners! Great idea, as many have already pointed out.

Good luck to all the artists!

[vetal l]

PoLaR, on 28 October 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

Looking forward to seeing the winners! Great idea, as many have already pointed out.

Good luck to all the artists!

yah and many things were discussed. too bad - i have to leave PC for a week =)

[DirePhoenix]

Woo! I'm learning how to use Google Sketchup for this! I may not be done in time, but I'm keeping a log of my progress here:

[CG Anastasius Focht]

Yay Marauders



One in the background is scratch built

[vetal l]

DirePhoenix, on 28 October 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

Woo! I'm learning how to use Google Sketchup for this! I may not be done in time, but I'm keeping a log of my progress here:

Wow... looks very very familiar =)
I've modelling some simple technical devices about 15 years ago. And have done nothing with 3D since then.
I also choose SketchUp for this and learn it ab ovo. It took me about 40 hours (i still want to sleep). I've also start modelling from a seat. And i've finished it already. There are left not so many steps (milestones modells, screenshots) to write a full log, but i will do as much as i can after voting results.

As you can see above - i've found out some new things about size of a mech. And probably (if i'll have time) I'll remade model after contest. Just for myself =)

[Mikros04]

this "contest" = creative use of resources

pay out a couple of hundred dollars, and you get tons of near free concept art, nicely done PGI

I like 2nd one shown here, the top one... not so much:

http://www.sarna.net...ntest-underway/

Edited by Mikros04, 28 October 2013 - 03:44 PM.